Lurker Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Second guy caught desecrating the monument detained by police along with two other rioters. Nice. Where did you read/hear it though? I am unable to find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suraj Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Second guy caught desecrating the monument detained by police along with two other rioters. nanga karke maaro saale ko with chabuk dipped in hot water Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prakat Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 @lurker it was on ndtv an hour ago. @Suraj to each his own. :) I have different views on the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crookbond Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Kasab's death sentence upheld by SC a day before PM meets Paki counterpart? Is this integrity we are seeing? Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't Pakistan always said that Kasab et al. were non-state actors. :hmmm: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prakat Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 ^ yes. not like they have a choice in the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seedhi Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Your two comments contradict each other. SS/BJP are "supported" by people and hence they survive in Mumbai. But Congress-NCP do not, even though they have been in power for last 12 years as you say?? Some people support SS-BJP, some people support Congress-NCP. I am not talking of "people" as a single monolithic entity, any party will survive as long as it has a significant support among the people. There is NO reset button. Leaving aside your contradictions, I have mentioned somewhere in this thread that at the end of the day the reason why Mumbai is where it is today is because of Mumbaikars. They have to own their city and stop throwing up leaders like Bal and Raj Thackeray or Abu Azmi.Why not leaders like Pawar, Shinde, Chavan, Deshmukh? Why single out only those leaders to blame who incidentally have not been chief ministers. If political leaders have to be apportioned blame then it should be those who have enjoyed most power, such as the chief ministers over the last 10 years. This is a vicious circle. Your assertion is that people support SS because of attacks (I am simplifying it). My assertion is that parties like SS has milked what has happened, participated in some of the riots and in the end drove Mumbai more to the brink. This is a chicken and egg situation. Clearly there are merits for both arguments. I don't for a moment suggest that SS planted bombs in Bhendi Bazaar and Air India Building. On the other hand can you say vehemently that SS indeed participated in riots after the bomb blasts and killed Indian citizens. lets not qualify that simple statement with any "buts" whatsoever. fair?When did SS participate in riots AFTER bomb blasts? Last time there were large scale riots in Mumbai was in 1992-93, followed by the bomb blasts. In any case, non of this detracts from the total mess up that the Congress-NCP has done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhr123 Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Second guy caught desecrating the monument detained by police along with two other rioters. Bideo is that haramkhor pleej. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Some people support SS-BJP, some people support Congress-NCP. I am not talking of "people" as a single monolithic entity, any party will survive as long as it has a significant support among the people. There is NO reset button. Read the context of reset button within this thread. You should get your answer. Why not leaders like Pawar, Shinde, Chavan, Deshmukh? Why single out only those leaders to blame who incidentally have not been chief ministers. If political leaders have to be apportioned blame then it should be those who have enjoyed most power, such as the chief ministers over the last 10 years. This has been answered in my earlier posts, you may have missed it. The issue with growth of Shiv Sena is not only the religious polarization, it is also how it has essentially hijacked the public discourse. The key points for the l(o)ast 2 decades has all been about anti-Muslim for SS (and BJP), and in turn anti-sampradiyak-tatv for Congress and NCP. Then it has recently turned into anti-Bihari/UP and pro-Marathi-ashmita for SS and anti these for Congress-NCP. Yes you can blame Congress/NCP for not rising above the vote banks. Fair enough. But the narratives are being set by these rowdies. Funny enough, you dont seem to have issue with it. A good analogy here would be Gujarat. You know very well I am not a Modi fan, cant stand him actually, but he has successfully changed the Gujrat narrative from anti-Muslim to development. The cynical me thinks it is a political ploy but most of the conversation these days is about Gujrat's development. When was the last time you heard it about Mumbai? It is same old Muslim-Pakistani-Bihari-Bangaldeshi baaja we keep hearing about. When did SS participate in riots AFTER bomb blasts? Last time there were large scale riots in Mumbai was in 1992-93, followed by the bomb blasts. In any case, non of this detracts from the total mess up that the Congress-NCP has done. That to me is plain intellactual dishonesty. :hatsoff: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seedhi Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 This has been answered in my earlier posts' date=' you may have missed it. The issue with growth of Shiv Sena is not only the religious polarization, it is also how it has essentially hijacked the public discourse. The key points for the l(o)ast 2 decades has all been about anti-Muslim for SS (and BJP), and in turn anti-[i']sampradiyak-tatv for Congress and NCP. Then it has recently turned into anti-Bihari/UP and pro-Marathi-ashmita for SS and anti these for Congress-NCP. Yes you can blame Congress/NCP for not rising above the vote banks. Fair enough. But the narratives are being set by these rowdies. Funny enough, you dont seem to have issue with it. A good analogy here would be Gujarat. You know very well I am not a Modi fan, cant stand him actually, but he has successfully changed the Gujrat narrative from anti-Muslim to development. The cynical me thinks it is a political ploy but most of the conversation these days is about Gujrat's development. When was the last time you heard it about Mumbai? It is same old Muslim-Pakistani-Bihari-Bangaldeshi baaja we keep hearing about.Even if I grant you that a skewed narrative is being set by the SS, why should Congress-NCP allow itself to be saddled with it? The root cause is misgovernance. You gave the example of Gujarat, well Modi could not have done the transformation without having delivered development oriented governance. Same thing happened in Bihar - Nitish has managed to change the discourse to development even though Lalu Yadav, Paswan remain wedded to the MY-Dalit poltics. This could not have happened without a development oriented, (relatively) clean regime that Nitish has provided. Similarly with Madhya Pradesh, and to some extent (before the CWG fiasco) in Delhi. Basically when a party/government fails to deliver in governance they have to indulge in rhetoric and play community/caste politics. Congress-NCP, SS-BJP are all guilty of indulging in rhetoric but the blame for misgovernance and for not setting a development agenda has to lie with the party in power and not the opposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Even if I grant you that a skewed narrative is being set by the SS' date= why should Congress-NCP allow itself to be saddled with it? The root cause is misgovernance. You gave the example of Gujarat, well Modi could not have done the transformation without having delivered development oriented governance. Same thing happened in Bihar - Nitish has managed to change the discourse to development even though Lalu Yadav, Paswan remain wedded to the MY-Dalit poltics. This could not have happened without a development oriented, (relatively) clean regime that Nitish has provided. Similarly with Madhya Pradesh, and to some extent (before the CWG fiasco) in Delhi. Basically when a party/government fails to deliver in governance they have to indulge in rhetoric and play community/caste politics. Congress-NCP, SS-BJP are all guilty of indulging in rhetoric but the blame for misgovernance and for not setting a development agenda has to lie with the party in power and not the opposition. Rather simple, people put themselves in that situation. The narrative was set by SS, adopted by a lot of supporters, and Congress-NCP found its own set of supporters. It is a vicious circle I had mentioned earlier. Only in the quagmire Bombay is the loser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seedhi Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Rather simple, people put themselves in that situation. The narrative was set by SS, adopted by a lot of supporters, and Congress-NCP found its own set of supporters. It is a vicious circle I had mentioned earlier. Only in the quagmire Bombay is the loser.How is it a vicious circle? You yourself gave an example of Gujarat where Modi changed the narrative, similarly Nitish has done it in Bihar, and (I forgot earlier) Naveen Patnaik has done it in Orissa, S. Chauhan has done it in MP, Dixit did it to a large extent (before CWG) in Delhi. All of these examples are based on the politics of development and effective governance. Congress-NCP is in its third consecutive term, it cannot escape the primary blame for having ruled disastrously. SS may not be any better, but the blame for current situation in Mumbai/Maharashtra has to lie with Congress-NCP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 How is it a vicious circle? You yourself gave an example of Gujarat where Modi changed the narrative, similarly Nitish has done it in Bihar, and (I forgot earlier) Naveen Patnaik has done it in Orissa, S. Chauhan has done it in MP, Dixit did it to a large extent (before CWG) in Delhi. All of these examples are based on the politics of development and effective governance. It is a vicious circle in Bombay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prakat Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't Pakistan always said that Kasab et al. were non-state actors. :hmmm: Just realized that you may feel that this (Pak govt. Not endorsing his activities openly) changes things in this context. The point however was centred on the fact that he was a citizen of Pakistan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Outsider Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 Why not leaders like Pawar, Shinde, Chavan, Deshmukh? Why single out only those leaders to blame who incidentally have not been chief ministers. If political leaders have to be apportioned blame then it should be those who have enjoyed most power, such as the chief ministers over the last 10 years. Waah! Sonia Gandhi can be blamed if she has never been the PM because she remote controls the PMO, but Bal Thackeray cannot be blamed because he was never the CM when he held the remote control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seedhi Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 Waah! Sonia Gandhi can be blamed if she has never been the PM because she remote controls the PMO' date=' but Bal Thackeray cannot be blamed because he was never the CM when he held the remote control.[/quote']Bal Thakeray's party was last in power in Maharashtra from 1995-2000. So how can he be blamed for the current situation in Mumbai ahead of the subsequent chief ministers of Congress which is in its third term as the ruling party. If someone has to be blamed then it must first be the chief ministers of the Congress who have taken turns in governing for last 12 yrs. By the way, the primary responsibility of the Central government lies with the PM, remote control or no remote control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Outsider Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 Bal Thakeray's party was last in power in Maharashtra from 1995-2000. So how can he be blamed for the current situation in Mumbai ahead of the subsequent chief ministers of Congress which is in its third term as the ruling party. If someone has to be blamed then it must first be the chief ministers of the Congress who have taken turns in governing for last 12 yrs. I am not talking about recent failures or anything, but your generic haste to give a clean chit to everyone who has not been in "official" power. By the way, the primary responsibility of the Central government lies with the PM, remote control or no remote control. And secondary responsibility? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seedhi Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 I am not talking about recent failures or anything' date=' but your generic haste to give a clean chit to everyone who has not been in "official" power.[/quote']Did you read the post that I had replied to? I was objecting to selectively choosing only Thakeray and Azmi to blame for the mess. If a list of politicians to apportion blame is made, then Thakeray and Azmi may certainly appear but only after the Congress CMs. Council of ministers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arun81 Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 Moral of the story - Employment helps. Right ! If unemployment causes Azad Maidan Riots, Employment at DRDO causes Terror attacks.... http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/bangalore/DRDO-staffer-10-others-arrested-for-terror-links-in-Bangalore/articleshow/16034537.cms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Outsider Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 Did you read the post that I had replied to? I was objecting to selectively choosing only Thakeray and Azmi to blame for the mess. If a list of politicians to apportion blame is made, then Thakeray and Azmi may certainly appear but only after the Congress CMs. Yes, I did read the post. It had to do with the degradation of Bombay after '92 - personally I've never stayed in Bombay for a protracted period of time to comment on whether you or Lurker are right. But I have no issues if you don't even consider Sonia or Rahul Gandhi even as secondary culprits in the current Congress administration. In the same vein you don't consider Bal Thackeray even a secondary culprit. That's fair. Are they tertiary culprits? If so, in what official capacity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seedhi Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 But I have no issues if you don't even consider Sonia or Rahul Gandhi even as secondary culprits in the current Congress administration. In the same vein you don't consider Bal Thackeray even a secondary culprit. That's fair. Are they tertiary culprits? If so' date=' in what official capacity?[/quote']Clearly Sonia or Rahul Gandhi are not "culprits" in any official capacity for any corruption or malgovernance of a Congress govt. But they (or Bal Thakeray in case of SS) would have a political responsibility which is less direct than, say, the responsibility of the PM or a Congress CM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts