Civilian nuclear deal poll

[sandtest]

Have some reservation regarding the maintenance contracts but will still support it. Also, deal shouldn't be in lieu of Iran Gas deal

Another important thing apart from Iran gas is the defense purchases. I am still awaiting, whom government is going to award the contract for purchase of 126 multi role combat aircrafts (MRCA) worth more than 10 billion USD. If contract goes to Boeing F/A 18 super hornets or LM F16 block 70, then definately Unkil is extracting more from us in return for nuclear deal. I am all for friendship with USA and closer ties since our interests co-incide with US at the moment.....but making ourselves dependent upon USA in the area of defense will not be in our best interest in near future. We have to carefully draw a line as what will be our "nature" of friendship with USA in future. Although, I also admit that commies and their blind hatred of anything US related only hurts Indian interest and is not correct. Everyone knows they are the Chinese supporters in the name of communism.

[CC1981]

I am all for friendship with USA and closer ties since our interests co-incide with US at the moment.....but making ourselves dependent upon USA in the area of defense will not be in our best interest in near future.

Which is exactly why we shouldn't be buying 2nd hand US fighters for our MRCA program. For one, US aircrafts are not superior on their own to the russian aircrafts- there aint a thing in the world that a F/A-18 or F-16 can do that Su-30 or MiG-35 cannot do. But the reverse is nowhere close to being true- a squadron of Su-30s/MiG-35s will cut a squadron of F/A-18/F-16s into shreds with minimal or no losses.If pricetag is the decieding factor (those Su-30s and MiG-29/35s cost helluva lot), then there is always alternatives such as JAS Gripen/Dassault Rafale/Mirage 2000s(the latest version with phased array radars & electronic countermeasure suite). For two, US weapons ALWAYS come with a zillion and one strings attached. In an event of war, the US calls the shots to whom you attack/do not attack/defend against because they do NOT do full technology transfer to anyone but the British & the Israelis. There are a zillion and one components to successfully running an air squadron apart from the planes- US will control every aspect of their production,usage & delivery, effectively having a decieding say in Indian defence matters. And if i recall correctly, the MRCA program is for 120-150 aircrafts, which will be a significant part of India's air force. For three, believe it or not, most non-US planes are cheaper than US planes and don't really do that much less. Its like taking something that is 95% the US quality for 70% the price. Wars are won on economic fronts, not by who puts out the best made plane or armour (this is why the Germans lost the war despite having the best damn technology at their disposal- their tanks, machine guns, semi-automatics, submarines, attack planes- practically every hardware they had were superior to the allied hardware up to 1944). So by simple economics, India stands to be better served by something like the Gripen than the F-16. For four, there are options for full tech-transfer from other nations. For five, most of our air force is russian & french in hardware- now, it is a known fact that NATO still struggles with standardizing the US/UK military hardware with rest of Europe's. Our pilots/support staff be flying the planes to their limits far better in Russian/European (French/Swedish) design than the US one simply because of the familiarity factor. In common parlayance, you do not take an ace car driver and turn him/her into an ace truck driver overnight, if at all. Same case with US hardware. An European/Russian plane will integrate with our air/naval/army/strategic command forces far easier than an American one (It is like trying to service a volkswagen in a facility built for Toyota).

[sandtest]

Which is exactly why we shouldn't be buying 2nd hand US fighters for our MRCA program.)

MRCA is for NEW aircrafts, and I think India has made all the provisions in RFP (request for proposal) to ensure that indigenous interest and industry is not hurt too badly. For example, one of the provisions in RFP is that only 18 aircrafts will be directly delivered by the manufacturere, rest all of them has to be manufactured as license production inside India with full technology transfer to HAL. So, if Boeing or Lockheed-Martin will bid for this, they have to produce the Aircrafts in India, same like Russian Irkut is doing for Su-30 India version called Su-30 MKI (one the best birds at the moment in service.)

For one, US aircrafts are not superior on their own to the russian aircrafts- there aint a thing in the world that a F/A-18 or F-16 can do that Su-30 or MiG-35 cannot do. But the reverse is nowhere close to being true- a squadron of Su-30s/MiG-35s will cut a squadron of F/A-18/F-16s into shreds with minimal or no losses.If pricetag is the decieding factor (those Su-30s and MiG-29/35s cost helluva lot), then there is always alternatives such as JAS Gripen/Dassault Rafale/Mirage 2000s(the latest version with phased array radars & electronic countermeasure suite).

This is highly debatable. Actually, MRCA is not for Su-30, so you should not mention Su-30 particularly India's Su-30 MKI is a different class of aircraft and cannot be compared with F16s etc -- obviously F16 can't stand a chance in a dogfight with MKIs. Now, serious contender is Mig-35, no doubt Russia is offering us Thrust Vector Engine-- meaning it is definately the most maneuvorable aircraft in world, and of course they are ready to trasfer all technology and joint production in India as they already do. But all good things end here. I am still having words of praise for Boeing F/A 18 Super Hornets -- not because they are the best aircraft --- but because of the Radar which they will bring to us. It has most advanced AESA radar, and whole world knows that USA has the most sophisticated electronics and radars. This is the only area where Russia lacks since the time of cold war. Russian can best provide us modern vesrions of Zhuk radar. We already have better Israeli Elta radar in MKIs. Imagine we are getting AESA and DRDO covertly reverse engineer it and produce Indian version of AESA in future. This will bring new technology and knowhow for us. IMVHO, modern time war is fought in BVR (beyond visual range) mode....close dogfights are rarely seen, so maneurability and breathtaking actions of Mig-35 will be useful only in close combat NOT in BVR. In BVR you need an advance radar like AESA (which only USA has) to track and monitor. And of course with a secret frequency which cannot be jammed. Kargil is the best example, during bombing campaigns at Kargil heights-- our Mirages were able to intercept Pukistani F-16s, from a distance of 100 Kms and Pukis never dared to come close for the fear of being shot down by BVR missiles. (Thanks to Russia we were armed with R73/77 Adder missiles even before 1999) So IAF was decisive force in Kargil battle, for the first time Pukis never dared to launch any sortie to support their troops at height due to lack of BVR capability. This is an example to just to highlight that India's war scenarios are different than other countries. Our threats are unique and hence IAFs requirements are unique.

For two, US weapons ALWAYS come with a zillion and one strings attached. In an event of war, the US calls the shots to whom you attack/do not attack/defend against because they do NOT do full technology transfer to anyone but the British & the Israelis. There are a zillion and one components to successfully running an air squadron apart from the planes- US will control every aspect of their production,usage & delivery, effectively having a decieding say in Indian defence matters.

This is true almost 100%....for the first time you have said something in India's interest:D USA not only attaches strings but also Amreeka bahadur has a habit of sanctioning others to suit their interests. Remember Shakti-2 tests of Pokhran and Amreeka bahadur's sanction and how it affected DRDO badly in two areas-- (1) LCA-Tejas programm (long delayed India's first attempt to build an advanced fighter jet) (2) Kaveri Engine programm. Another thing which worries me is Unkil's habit of spying over their own "friends"....Unkil usually directs CIA to employ some moles along with their defense company employess. In past we have been penetrated by CIA , thanks to our corrupt babus. Dealing directly with USA in defense will only expose us more to CIA. IMHO, still R&AW is not fully capable of effective counter-intelligence operations like Israelis have. I have all respect for India-US, partnership to contain commie China, but CIA is one nasty agency with Evanegilical ideology of spreading Christianity as their core menifesto of operation, I am only opposed to USA because of this.

And if i recall correctly, the MRCA program is for 120-150 aircrafts, which will be a significant part of India's air force.

The correct number is 126 with an option of around 80 no. more in future. so total makes around 200, if option of 80 more is excercised. Indeed, it's a significant number and will be a decisive bird for IAF for next 30 years. We can't take it lightly. It is the biggest purchase in India's history of defense.

For three, believe it or not, most non-US planes are cheaper than US planes and don't really do that much less. Its like taking something that is 95% the US quality for 70% the price. Wars are won on economic fronts, not by who puts out the best made plane or armour (this is why the Germans lost the war despite having the best damn technology at their disposal- their tanks, machine guns, semi-automatics, submarines, attack planes- practically every hardware they had were superior to the allied hardware up to 1944). So by simple economics, India stands to be better served by something like the Gripen than the F-16.

Partially correct. US planes are costlier becasue they will come with a wide variety of armaments. For example Boeing has offerred a number of armaments during their presentation to IAF supplied by Raytheon....The list is very lucrative, with armements like JDAMS, GPS guided precision bombs, F/A 18 becomes a serious contender. Just imagine, with weapons embargo on China, we will be getting all these, capable of kicking $**** out of Chincommie arses. A defense jingo like me is really tempted with F/A 18 with AESA and all munition --- provided no Unkil strings are attached. Btw...apart from Rafale, one more lucrative bird is Eurofighter Typhhon if it comes with Meteore missiles.

[CC1981]

Imagine we are getting AESA and DRDO covertly reverse engineer it and produce Indian version of AESA in future.

Ummm. Err. No. Just doesnt work that way. I am an EE, i've done jobs involving radar tech- your military radar is next to impossible to reverse-engineer, there is simply way too much unknowns without the blueprint that makes the permutations next-to-impossible to go through. And even if you could reverse-engineer it, by the time you'd get around doing that, there is already a bigger and badder radar out with someone else. Plus do not for a minute assume that a deal with F/A-18 will come with AESA radar.US are known to compartmentalize their tech transfer and unless it is clearly spelt out, it is not going to be included.

IMVHO, modern time war is fought in BVR (beyond visual range) mode....close dogfights are rarely seen, so maneurability and breathtaking actions of Mig-35 will be useful only in close combat NOT in BVR.

Except that there hasn't been a modern war with equal armaments siince 1952 (Korea). In Vietnam, US had way better tech (the viets just ground them down because the Yanks were fighting a war sold on lies, the viets for their own frigging land) , in the two iraqs and afghanistans, comparison doesnt even start. Do not assume that BVR capability means you can fly up against superior jets and hope to live. When you engage fighters of equivalent technology, every inch counts. Here's this scenario for you- your Alpha squadron of 5 fighters go on a surgical strike to some Pakistani air base- half way through the mission, with 70% of your armaments spent, Pakistani air force arrives on the scene. So now its 5v5 with your 5 fighters having 2-3 missiles left each at maximum. Pakistani fighters have 20-25 missiles at minimum. You are hooped. But if you have superior aerodynamics, you can still engage with your MG. You do not build an airforce that's philosophy is 'fly around fast, fire missiles form 50km away, turn around and go away'. Not unless you are america because this strategy of warfare requires insane amount of technical infrastructure that India will not be able to afford for another 100 years atleast. You forget one thing- India's defence budget (officially) is 25 billion dollars or so. America's is officially 500 billion dollars and greater than the next 10 biggest spenders combined. You do not follow their philosophy to war, not unless you wanna go broke and do very little damage with very expensive fancy equipment that you don't have the money to fix.

[CC1981]

In BVR you need an advance radar like AESA (which only USA has) to track and monitor. And of course with a secret frequency which cannot be jammed.

Dude, choosing between the AESA and what France/Israel has is choosing between a Bugatti and a Ferarri. Sure, the Ferrari is inferior but it is still helluva good. And as far as radar technology goes, it is a field that evolves fairly fast: 5-10 years is usually the timeframe before a bigger & badder radar is on the scene. In a field like this, it is pretty stupid to pay humongous amounts of money for 120+ fighters for a radar that will be obsolete before Ricky Ponting retires. Planes last a helluva long time further in their functionality ( US operated the F-16 for 20+ years, we will operate Su-30s/MRCAs for atleast the next 20-25 years) and it will sure look like a bum deal 10 years from now when we are stuck with the plane and someone else has a bigger badder radar. It is far better to just allocate money for this research and persue research in this field through defence R&D.

[CC1981]

A defense jingo like me is really tempted with F/A 18 with AESA and all munition --- provided no Unkil strings are attached.

Now that is just fanciful thinking. US will never let go the opportunity to poke its nose in our affairs once we start buying aircrafts from them. I am not against purchasing war materials from the US but i too, like you, hope for a 'no strings attached' option. And that option,simply speaking, is not available in Air Force related matters. Simply speaking, the technology involved in a figher plane is simply too diverse and too intricate to decipher, unless there is a full technology transfer. Since US will never do a full tech. transfer with India, it will mean that we will be stuck with US controlled issues, such as spare parts, trainings, upgrades, etc. But the field of war materials is vast- we sure could use the design specs for M1A2 Abrams or even 20-30 of those babies. Or we could use a Tieconderoga class destroyer. In those kind of deals, there is much less potential for manufacturer weilding influence because the sytems to those ships are neither as intricate to figure out (they are just well made, little ingeniosity that makes an engineer go 'oh yea, i wish i'd thought of that before' after studying them) and it is not hard to know just exactly how they are made. But it is of no surprise that while the US is willing to sell a now-obsolete F/A-18 or F-16, there is no talk about a warship or tanks or any of that American technology. Btw, i do not see the problem in building 200 more Su-30 MKIs. We already have the full technology for them and they are not that much more expensive than the unit price of F-16s, F/A-18s, Mirage-2000s to build. Especially when you figure that if we get another plane with full tech. transfer, a lot of money will be added on top of the per unit cost. for a one-time payout of tech-transfer. So now your '5-10 million dollar a piece cheaper' plane costs only '1-2 million dollar cheaper' because your govt. just paid 500 million/1 billion for full tech transfer. Now, is it worth India's time to build 200 more MKIs than what is planned if it costs only 1-2 million dollars more per piece ? HELL YES! The Su-30MKI and its Russian Air Force variant are the top most fighter jets in service worldwide, barring the newly inducted F-22 and Eurofighter Typhoon. However, both these planes are superior to the Su-30MKI for one reason alone- they got far better stealth capabilities. But in practically every other category, the Su-30MKI is the primier fighter in the world, comprehensively superior to the Mirage-2000s, Dassault Rafale, MiG-29, F-16s, F/A-18s,Saab Gripen etc. So for 1-2 million dollars more per unit price, i say we build more Su-30MKIs and instead of having another fighter for MRCAs, we just have 130 more Su-30MKIs. Sure, it will make our air force kind of one-dimensional, everyone flying a Su-30MKIs but not even commie China will want to f*ck with our air force if its flying 500+ Su-30MKIs ( we are already slated to fly 270-300 of those buggers, 200 more would make it 500 even) for a very long time. And since Su-30MKIs are multirole fighters, there is not a function that they are incapable of either.

[CC1981]

Oh and i forgot to add- you can forget about the Eurofighter Typhoon, unless the guys in Delhi are crazy. Those planes cost an arm and a leg and at their price, you could have 2 Su-30MKIs flying aroun. Not to mention, i highly doubt that Eurofighter Typhoon would be on sale- it is a joint venture between 3-4 European nations and it is highly unlikely that ALL their governments would agree to this sale of stealth fighter to India. It is precisely this nature of Eurofighter's conception that presents the biggest logistical snag. You are worried about US exerting influence on our defence matters if we get F/A-18s ? well if we got the ET, it would be like handing the keys to our defence to the EU. They can keep exerting control/sabotaging us by getting just 1 of the 3-4 parent nations to Eurofighter bring up some damn reason to say 'screw you India' unless we did their bidding.

[sandtest]

Ummm. Err. No. Just doesnt work that way. I am an EE, i've done jobs involving radar tech- your military radar is next to impossible to reverse-engineer, there is simply way too much unknowns without the blueprint that makes the permutations next-to-impossible to go through. And even if you could reverse-engineer it, by the time you'd get around doing that, there is already a bigger and badder radar out with someone else. Plus do not for a minute assume that a deal with F/A-18 will come with AESA radar.US are known to compartmentalize their tech transfer and unless it is clearly spelt out, it is not going to be included..

News is that latest F/A 18 block EF will be offerred to India with AESA radars. In present time Americans won't risk loosing a business as huge as 10 billion dollars, particularly when French and Swedish are eyeing to grab any opportunity. India don't have any weapons embargo or sanction, unlike China, so for India it's a free market and we shop from anywhere. My suggestion is very simple, evaluate Boeing offer only if it is with AESA ---with full technology transfer. Anything less than that should mean rejection of Boeing and evaluating Mikoyan, Dasaault, Eurofighter and SAAB offer. We have so many options now. It's a buyers world in modern time...and we have money, so we have terms to dictate and Unkil knows this, if they want to earn billions of dollars and protect their people's job by getting big contracts like this, they have to please the customers like India. This is where I am worried Unkil might play the nuclear deal card to extract some favor for getting MRCA and that's why whole discussion in this thread.

Do not assume that BVR capability means you can fly up against superior jets and hope to live.

I am not telling that....it's a war scenario which I mentioned and Kargil was a practical example where Pukis never tried to venture with their shiny and hyped F16s due to lack of one and only thing and this is BVR capability....so IMHO BVR is one of the Most important thing. As far as AESA is concerned, again I am not an electronic guy, but as far as I know, your assumption that AESA will be outdated is incorrect, although it will be subject to update from time to time with more capability of tracking and engaging various types of targets simultaneously. For your info AESA is the radar used by USAF for the 5th generation fighter aircraft F-22-Raptors. US has not even revealed Raptors to their closest allies like UK. The biggest advantage of AESA as told by defense experts is it's stealthness... .in normal cases if you are tracking a hostile aircraft and lock it with your radar to release the missile for engagement, the pilot can easily determine that it has been scanned and locked by a radar and thus pilot can quickly make evasive maneuvors, and radar lock gets lost....this is the main reason why maneuvorability is improtant. How hostile air-craft comes to know that it has been scanned by another aircraft is because the radar is not stealth. AESA has that stealth capability, wherein you can scan and lock enemy aircraft and direct missiles to engage the direct while holding the radar lock. It is more of a technical matter than explaining like this. Just imagine, we are engaging a Puki JF17, and they have no idea about it, they can't make evasive maneuvors, their trajectory is predictable and thus all of Chincommies and Puki aircrafts will become vulnerable to our new-found BVR capability once we acquire AESA...doersn't matter we have to pay billions of dollars of taxpayers money for this.

You do not build an airforce that's philosophy is 'fly around fast, fire missiles form 50km away, turn around and go away'. Not unless you are america because this strategy of warfare requires insane amount of technical infrastructure that India will not be able to afford for another 100 years atleast.

dear, that is precisely the new doctrine of IAF for future..... it is to establish "complete air dominance". You can't establish "complete air dominance" on enemy air-space without eleminating the hostile aircrafts and ground tracking systems. You can enter in enemy air space and expect to survive only when you have tracked them in BVR and eliminated their potential threats at least 75 Kms away.....tht's the modern warfare. Yeah, it's a known fact we are NO match to US, but wait for another 30-40 years and one never knows....Laard Kalki might arrive as manifestation of these weapons:D..once we start producing them inhouse. India are going to put dedicated new Air-Command for this and with GLONASS project we will not be dependent any other sattellite for guiding our bombs and missiles. Just my humble jingoism.

[sandtest]

Oh and i forgot to add- you can forget about the Eurofighter Typhoon, unless the guys in Delhi are crazy. Those planes cost an arm and a leg and at their price, you could have 2 Su-30MKIs flying aroun. Not to mention, i highly doubt that Eurofighter Typhoon would be on sale- it is a joint venture between 3-4 European nations and it is highly unlikely that ALL their governments would agree to this sale of stealth fighter to India. It is precisely this nature of Eurofighter's conception that presents the biggest logistical snag. You are worried about US exerting influence on our defence matters if we get F/A-18s ? well if we got the ET, it would be like handing the keys to our defence to the EU. They can keep exerting control/sabotaging us by getting just 1 of the 3-4 parent nations to Eurofighter bring up some damn reason to say 'screw you India' unless we did their bidding.

You cannot ignore Eurofighter just for your above reasons....Of course cost is a factor but as far as "giving keys to Europe" is concerned, we have specific clause of full technology transfer with complete production in India, which is applicable to all, including ET. So if they want to bid they know they have to comply with TOT -- 10 billion dollars is too big amount to ignore. Now as far as Typhoon is concerned if you will compare it with Russian and American contenders, all of their aircrafts- Mig, F/A 18 and F16 are based on old airframe design --dating back to 70s and 80s. Typhoon is totally a new design for future needs, hence ideal contender for MRCA, provided as I said earlier it should come with TOT and Meteor missiles which europe has been developing.

[CC1981]

Pukis never tried to venture with their shiny and hyped F16s due to lack of one and only thing and this is BVR capability....so IMHO BVR is one of the Most important thing.

First, cut out the 'Pukis' nonsense when debating me. It is an eyesore to see such childish insults being hurled without any provocation whatsoever. Second, yes BVR is important. We have BVR. PAF also will have BVR soon (thanks to China)- it is not that their F16s lack the BVR radar capabilities- they've not had BVR capable AAMRAAM missiles until recently. Third, passive array radar is a great thing to have but much exgaggerated without a stealth aircraft. Simply because, if your aircraft is not stealth, it is pointless anyways- your enemy can see you. If your enemy can see you, they can fire upon you and then your whole ' i will simply use my awesome steath radar to paint target and kiddy-guide my missile home' idea goes out of the window because now you are more concerned in saving your own a$$. Fourth- i am not talking about 'souping up' AESA, I am saying that a new methodology of making AESA radar apart from the one US does will be on the market in 5-10 years' time and that is always the case so far in radar industries.

AESA has that stealth capability, wherein you can scan and lock enemy aircraft and direct missiles to engage the direct while holding the radar lock. It is more of a technical matter than explaining like this. Just imagine, we are engaging a Puki JF17, and they have no idea about it, they can't make evasive maneuvors, their trajectory is predictable and thus all of Chincommies and Puki aircrafts will become vulnerable to our new-found BVR capability once we acquire AESA...doersn't matter we have to pay billions of dollars of taxpayers money for this.

False. AESA stands for active electronically scanned array ( or phased array). An active radar is not immune to detection from the enemy when its switched on. Not to mention, Phased array technology is not the sole property of USA. I am not sure even if 'steath radar' is even possible as a concept- i certainly did not come across it in my studies or work(though my exp. here is limited). Simply physics-wise speaking, if somebody is directing coherent radio waves your way and you got a couple of antennas sticking out of your plane, it is impossible for that someone NOT be spotted by you. I've never heard or read anything on RADAR before that suggests you can simply scan something with radar and they will be blissfully unaware, unless they lack the equipment to detect that they are being scanned ( which no pakistani/chinese planes are backwards enough to still be).

[CC1981]

dear, that is precisely the new doctrine of IAF for future..... it is to establish "complete air dominance".

That is a nice goal to aspire to but lets get realistic. The bottomline is, US's preferred wa tactics & armaments rely on the back of a 500+ billion dollars financing and ours has 25 billion dollars for it. The US air force gets a few times more money than the entire Indian military. So yes, money is very much part of the equation and should not be forgotten. This is the problem in trying to adopt America's methodology of war- it is way too expensive the way and as America's track record has shown, not necessarily the most effective way either.

Typhoon is totally a new design for future needs, hence ideal contender for MRCA, provided as I said earlier it should come with TOT and Meteor missiles which europe has been developing.

Not..worth..it. As i said, for the price of a ET, you can spit out 2-3 Su-30MKIs. Can 2-3 Su-30MKIs take on a single EuroFighter typhoon ? easily. End of story. PS: Su-30s dont have an old airframe design -their airframe design is from the 80s, from Su-27 fighters. And as far as Airframe design goes- whopee ding. Thats like saying 'my bridge is better than your bridge'. That is just about one aspect in the plane where technological edge matters little or nothing. The ET isnt that much of a stealth fighter either- the strongest Russian radars/American radars can detect them in field of combat.

[Gaurav]

I would definitely not buy the Eurofighter!

[beetle]

Have some reservation but will support....

[King Tendulkar]

strongly suport

[suma25]

have no idea abt this nuclear issue n whats it all abt issue. though its shud not be that big an issue to topple a govt so that we can mid term elections again

[sandtest]

First' date=' cut out the 'Pukis' nonsense when debating me. It is an eyesore to see such childish insults being hurled without any provocation whatsoever.).[/quote'] calling an enemy by his deserving name is not a nonsense..if for you Puki is an eyesore-you are free to ignore...I never asked you to reply and lecture about what is childish and what is mature -- keep your love for Pukis to yourself.

Second, yes BVR is important. We have BVR. PAF also will have BVR soon (thanks to China)- it is not that their F16s lack the BVR radar capabilities- they've not had BVR capable AAMRAAM missiles until recently.

Amreeka bahadur has already agreed to provide them with truck -loads of AMRAAMS along with their newly signed contract of providing F16s block 52. Now, This is why I hate Unkil sometimes....Unkil plays both way...in the name of "war on terror" Unkil is arming Terrorist State of Pakistan. I still feel that Unkil plays Pakistani card to check and restrict India's growing military influence. recent F16 Blk 52 deal loaded with AMRAAMS is a live example how Unkil and their evangelical policymakers operate.

Third, passive array radar is a great thing to have but much exgaggerated without a stealth aircraft. Simply because, if your aircraft is not stealth, it is pointless anyways- your enemy can see you. If your enemy can see you, they can fire upon you and then your whole ' i will simply use my awesome steath radar to paint target and kiddy-guide my missile home' idea goes out of the window because now you are more concerned in saving your own a$$.

Nothing can beat stealthness of an aircraft, and I agree that we need to develop a fifth generation fully stealth aircraft (same like USAF has been developing F22-Raptors) for our future security challenges. But at the moment when none of the aircrafts on offer (i.e. Mig-35, F/A 18 SH, F-16s blk70, Rafale and Gripen) are stealth, all we need is the best we can get out of these. So if we are not getting stealthness at least we must go far best avionics and radars. And there comes American AESA as the front-runner. Nothing can beat Americans in the field of Avionics and radars. They have well established private industries engaged in R&D, manufacturing and most improtant ready to participate in MRCA, provided the Aircraft is American one. Lastly, we need to diversify our sources......Too much dependence on Ruskies is not a good practice....this has resulted in Arm-twisting in some cases, even by Ruskies. I am not mad about American jets, because we have one very good option of Rafale -- a superb aircraft which in future can be configured for Naval version to launch it from an Aircraft carrier. If French can offer Rafale at Mirages price --- I will prefer seeing Rafale in IAF and IN inventory. IMHO, Mirages have a very clean and proven track record during IAFs campaign in Kargil, and Rafale is very similiar to Mirages.

[CC1981]

keep your love for Pukis to yourself.

Why dont you start with keeping your childish insults and hatred to yourself too ? Such childish remarks dont make a decent conversation- only goes to highlight your fundamentalism and childish attitude. IMO, you are no longer in class 7, so cut out the class-7 level insults of 'pukistan' and 'dallkhoristan'.

I agree that we need to develop a fifth generation fully stealth aircraft (same like USAF has been developing F22-Raptors) for our future security challenges.

At what price ? F-22s cost 110 million dollars each. India can in no way shape or form procure or finance a project with that high a price tag.

[sandtest]

At what price ? F-22s cost 110 million dollars each. India can in no way shape or form procure or finance a project with that high a price tag.

For your info, India is exploring the possibility of jointly developing the 5th generation all-stealth fighetr jet with Russia...The new aircraft wil be called as PAK-FA.:two_thumbs_up:

[CC1981]

For your info' date=' India is exploring the possibility of jointly developing the 5th generation all-stealth fighetr jet with Russia...The new aircraft wil be called as PAK-FA.:two_thumbs_up:[/quote'] And for your info, India is already out of the PAK-FA project, it having already started by Russia independently and Russia is going to have the first PAK-FA jets by 2011. Sorry but India is no longer involved in PAKFA Which IMO is a good thing- India doesnt need a PAKFA, its Su-30s are good enough for now and the next 20 years. Lets not go overboard in military spending because it is an ego issue now. We are more than better off focussing on counter-terrorism, since an open war with Pakistan or China is unlikely event in the future and these elite military hardwares are useless in CT operations.

[sandtest]

And for your info' date=' India is already out of the PAK-FA project[b']..

Source please??

Which IMO is a good thing- India doesnt need a PAKFA, its Su-30s are good enough for now and the next 20 years. Lets not go overboard in military spending because it is an ego issue now. We are more than better off focussing on counter-terrorism, since an open war with Pakistan or China is unlikely event in the future and these elite military hardwares are useless in CT operations.

That you should not decide...let India's strategic thinkers look into it figure out our future security needs and power projection in Asia. IMO there is no harm in co-developing a 5th generation jet if it fits the bill.