Shoaib Left out of squad for SA

[Predator_05]

Re: Shoaib Left out of squad for SA

For a bowler to be called devastating he has to be consistent and should be a threat all the time. Marshall, Holding, Roberts, Shane Bond, Dennis Lillee, Waqar, Akram, Waqar can be termed devastating. Think about putting Shoaib in this list and you will come a cropper.

You will almost never see me praising any cricketer from p@ki-land, but when you imply that Shoaib wasn't as devastating as some of those names you are only kidding yourself. He was every bit as good as Bond, and at the peak of powers - just as destructive as any fast bowler that has ever played the game; the aforementioned names included. Watch some of his performances against Australia and NZ - you will see what i mean. His 5 wicket haul at Colombo was one of the best spells ever bowled in this decade. Remarkable in the sense that there was absolutely nothing in that pitch, and he simply ripped through a full-strength Aussie middle order with a barrage of good length deliveries and deadly yorkers delivered at an incredible pace. He took a 5 wicket haul as Australia were shot out for just 127. How many times do you ever see Australia being knocked out for such paltry totals ? Such accomplishments are worthy of respect. The man may have acted like a buffoon and a drama-queen, but when he had his head screwed on straight; he was capable of doing some serious damage. It's no coincidence that he was at the forefront of each and every test series victory that this crappy Pakistani team have enjoyed (and there haven't had too many) in this decade - the series wins vs SA in '03, in NZ that same year, England at home last winter could all be credited to his performances. That they wouldn't have come close without his presence is obvious. Without him, Pakistan is only good enough to beat lower rung sides like WI and SL (i don't count Zimbabwe and Banglastan). Notice how the recent upswing in Pakistan's test cricket (the wins vs England and India) coincided with Shoaib's return to the side ? Pakistan needs Shoaib. They will never win against top teams like Australia, SA, India, or England if he isn't leading their bowling attack. I can bet good money on Pakistan crashing and burning in SA now that he has been left out. Hell, the last time they won there back in '98 or something - wasn't it Shoaib who took a 5 wicket haul ? The wart hog and Blob Woolmer need to swallow their pride and do what is in the best interests of the the team. and that means recalling their one and only matchwinner.

[MundaPakistani]

Re: Shoaib Left out of squad for SA What a mixed post there Predator and predictably i agree with most things that you said how ever i don't think beating SL in SL is a minor accomplishment. I reckon the upswing in PAK cricket which started from the tour of IND in 2005 has mainly been caused by unity in the team but it's also true that if it wasn't for Shoaib we would have never been able to beat the Ashes champs.

[King]

Re: Shoaib Left out of squad for SA

The man may have acted like a buffoon and a drama-queen, but when he had his head screwed on straight; he was capable of doing some serious damage.

That really is a rarity and to even do that he has to turn up at the ground often. I reiterate again, before you call someone devastating make sure he has enough gas to turn up to bowl more than just one good spell. Going by your logic even Kambli should be named a "Devastating" player when he had his head right and he has numbers by his side too. Alas he was "Devastating" in the long run.

[Predator_05]

Re: Shoaib Left out of squad for SA

That really is a rarity and to even do that he has to turn up at the ground often. I reiterate again' date=' before you call someone devastating make sure he has enough gas to turn up to bowl more than just one good spell. Going by your logic even Kambli should be named a "Devastating" player when he had his head right and he has numbers by his side too. Alas he was "Devastating" in the long run.[/quote'] I am going by your criteria; "For a bowler to be called devastating he has to be consistent and should be a threat all the time. What is the threat Shoaib at the most can pose?" You talk as if he has almost no record to speak of. Shoaib WAS consistently amongst the wickets THROUGHOUT his career, and he was ALWAYS a threat to any batsmen. 180 odd wickets from 42 tests at an average of 25 isn't consistent enough for you ? Each and every team Pakistan faced would earmark him as the single biggest obstacle lying between them and a possible victory. Even by your definition; he WAS devastating and this is exemplified by the fact that he bowled some of the best spells ever seen on the most benign pitches. Batsmen simply didn't know how to play him. Remember Fleming shaking his head after that '03 series, lamenting that his team just didn't how to play full-length reverse swing at 150 kmph. If that isn't threatening, i don't know what is ! That's enough for me to regard him as one of the best bowlers of his time. How many bowlers in the history of the game ever posed that kind of threat ? Only a handful, i'd imagine - most of 'em being West Indian. His "one or two good spells" as you put it, brought Pakistan their only test series wins against decent opposition. Sure, he could have played more matches but then that didn't stop you from going head over heels for Bond and placing his name alongside some of the best bowlers of all-time. The comparison with Kambli is an odious one because he only lasted 17 tests and never looked comfortable against good bowlers. Walsh and co. had him for lunch when WI toured in '94. Shoaib has wrecked the Australian batting lineup more often than not, and came good against the best - that's why he has my respect.

What a mixed post there Predator and predictably i agree with most things that you said how ever i don't think beating SL in SL is a minor accomplishment. I reckon the upswing in PAK cricket which started from the tour of IND in 2005 has mainly been caused by unity in the team but it's also true that if it wasn't for Shoaib we would have never been able to beat the Ashes champs.

Take it from me MP - Pakistan won't win anything on their tour of SA without Shoaib. He was the single biggest factor in whatever success Pakistan have had in Test cricket since '00 - that is irrefutable. The way he has been discarded is pathetic. Shoaib is just irreplaceable - as express bowlers don't grow on trees, and SA will now fancy their chances. Let's see if your team can prove me wrong.

[beetle]

Re: Shoaib Left out of squad for SA Joined: Posts: 1335 Offline Imprisonments : 1 Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:26 am Post subject: >>>>>Mohammad Yousuf is like an one man army right now, so SA have to get past him to beat Pakistan. Does he have in him to perform the same way outside of the subcontinent?

[MundaPakistani]

Re: Shoaib Left out of squad for SA

Joined: Posts: 1335 Offline Imprisonments : 1 Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:26 am Post subject: >>>>>Mohammad Yousuf is like an one man army right now, so SA have to get past him to beat Pakistan. Does he have in him to perform the same way outside of the subcontinent?

Tour of England...enough said.

[MundaPakistani]

Re: Shoaib Left out of squad for SA

Take it from me MP - Pakistan won't win anything on their tour of SA without Shoaib. He was the single biggest factor in whatever success Pakistan have had in Test cricket since '00 - that is irrefutable. The way he has been discarded is pathetic. Shoaib is just irreplaceable - as express bowlers don't grow on trees, and SA will now fancy their chances. Let's see if your team can prove me wrong.

Yea after what he did to them in the last series( Gary Kirston's face...what a bloody mess that was) i am sure they will be extremely happy but if the rest of our bowlers can stay fit then i still think we have a fair chance of matching SA.

[King]

Re: Shoaib Left out of squad for SA

That really is a rarity and to even do that he has to turn up at the ground often. I reiterate again' date=' before you call someone devastating make sure he has enough gas to turn up to bowl more than just one good spell. Going by your logic even Kambli should be named a "Devastating" player when he had his head right and he has numbers by his side too. Alas he was "Devastating" in the long run.[/quote'] I am going by your criteria; "For a bowler to be called devastating he has to be consistent and should be a threat all the time. What is the threat Shoaib at the most can pose?" You talk as if he has almost no record to speak of. Shoaib WAS consistently amongst the wickets THROUGHOUT his career, and he was ALWAYS a threat to any batsmen. 180 odd wickets from 42 tests at an average of 25 isn't consistent enough for you ? Each and every team Pakistan faced would earmark him as the single biggest obstacle lying between them and a possible victory. Even by your definition; he WAS devastating and this is exemplified by the fact that he bowled some of the best spells ever seen on the most benign pitches. Batsmen simply didn't know how to play him. Remember Fleming shaking his head after that '03 series, lamenting that his team just didn't how to play full-length reverse swing at 150 kmph. If that isn't threatening, i don't know what is ! That's enough for me to regard him as one of the best bowlers of his time. How many bowlers in the history of the game ever posed that kind of threat ? Only a handful, i'd imagine - most of 'em being West Indian. His "one or two good spells" as you put it, brought Pakistan their only test series wins against decent opposition. Sure, he could have played more matches but then that didn't stop you from going head over heels for Bond and placing his name alongside some of the best bowlers of all-time. The comparison with Kambli is an odious one because he only lasted 17 tests and never looked comfortable against good bowlers. Walsh and co. had him for lunch when WI toured in '94. Shoaib has wrecked the Australian batting lineup more often than not, and came good against the best - that's why he has my respect.

What a mixed post there Predator and predictably i agree with most things that you said how ever i don't think beating SL in SL is a minor accomplishment. I reckon the upswing in PAK cricket which started from the tour of IND in 2005 has mainly been caused by unity in the team but it's also true that if it wasn't for Shoaib we would have never been able to beat the Ashes champs.

Take it from me MP - Pakistan won't win anything on their tour of SA without Shoaib. He was the single biggest factor in whatever success Pakistan have had in Test cricket since '00 - that is irrefutable. The way he has been discarded is pathetic. Shoaib is just irreplaceable - as express bowlers don't grow on trees, and SA will now fancy their chances. Let's see if your team can prove me wrong.

By your own admission and yardstick Shoaib is hardly devastating going by the following stats against Australia, South Africa and India : Shaoib's bowling effort against Australia : [code:1:e3958d7b61] Mat Runs HS BatAv 100 50 W BB BowlAv 5w Ct St unfiltered 42 537 47 10.74 0 0 165 6/11 25.69 12 11 0 filtered 10 85 27 6.07 0 0 31 5/21 35.64 3 2 0[/code:1:e3958d7b61] An average of 35.64 against and you reckon that is devastating? Now against India : [code:1:e3958d7b61] Mat Runs HS BatAv 100 50 W BB BowlAv 5w Ct St unfiltered 42 537 47 10.74 0 0 165 6/11 25.69 12 11 0 filtered 7 148 47 16.44 0 0 19 4/47 35.15 0 0 0 [/code:1:e3958d7b61] Not even one five fer against India :chin: and quite rightly going by my memory he is highly over rated. Yes he can bowl fast but one of the best "NO WAY". Against South Africa : [code:1:e3958d7b61] Mat Runs HS BatAv 100 50 W BB BowlAv 5w Ct St unfiltered 42 537 47 10.74 0 0 165 6/11 25.69 12 11 0 filtered 4 14 6 3.50 0 0 12 5/43 29.58 1 1 0 [/code:1:e3958d7b61] Now against the rest : Against Bangladesh : [code:1:e3958d7b61] Mat Runs HS BatAv 100 50 W BB BowlAv 5w Ct St unfiltered 42 537 47 10.74 0 0 165 6/11 25.69 12 11 0 filtered 3 18 15 6.00 0 0 17 6/50 15.17 1 0 0 [/code:1:e3958d7b61] Against England : [code:1:e3958d7b61] Mat Runs HS BatAv 100 50 W BB BowlAv 5w Ct St unfiltered 42 537 47 10.74 0 0 165 6/11 25.69 12 11 0 filtered 4 87 38 17.40 0 0 18 5/71 26.77 1 2 0 [/code:1:e3958d7b61] Against New Zealand : [code:1:e3958d7b61]Mat Runs HS BatAv 100 50 W BB BowlAv 5w Ct St unfiltered 42 537 47 10.74 0 0 165 6/11 25.69 12 11 0 filtered 2 37 37 18.50 0 0 17 6/11 5.23 3 0 0 [/code:1:e3958d7b61] 2 matches in all he has played against New Zeland and if you reckon he is going to be taking a wicket for every 5 runs now we must be kidding ourselves. You know where the overall average of 25 is coming from Against Sri Lanka : [code:1:e3958d7b61]Mat Runs HS BatAv 100 50 W BB BowlAv 5w Ct St unfiltered 42 537 47 10.74 0 0 165 6/11 25.69 12 11 0 filtered 5 79 26 11.28 0 0 24 5/60 25.25 2 2 0 [/code:1:e3958d7b61] Against West Indies : [code:1:e3958d7b61] Mat Runs HS BatAv 100 50 W BB BowlAv 5w Ct St unfiltered 42 537 47 10.74 0 0 165 6/11 25.69 12 11 0 filtered 3 25 20 8.33 0 0 12 5/24 20.50 1 1 0 [/code:1:e3958d7b61] Against Zimbabwe : [code:1:e3958d7b61]Mat Runs HS BatAv 100 50 W BB BowlAv 5w Ct St unfiltered 42 537 47 10.74 0 0 165 6/11 25.69 12 11 0 filtered 4 44 16 14.66 0 0 15 4/75 28.73 0 3 0 [/code:1:e3958d7b61] Look at the numbers closely, more the number of tests he has played his record has worsened. His records are great against an opponent when he has played very few test matches. Even against Zimbabwe when he has played 4 test matches he is unable to match his overall average. I've seen you absolutely disregard Murali saying his action isn't legal. I'd be interested to know what your opinion about Akthar's bowling action would be. Also would like to know if he really deserves to be playing after the doping issues. These two aren't a barometer but are an attribute to his records.

[King]

Re: Shoaib Left out of squad for SA Akthar's bowling has been the best against Bangladesh, Zimbabwe, New Zealand and West Indies. He has been at the receiving end against India and Australia. Against South Africa he has done OK but not devastating. To go with this he chooses what games he wants to play. When he starts to go for runs he will walk away from the field. I think you need to revisit the test series between India v Pakistan in 2004 when nothing was going right for him he simply walked away. Of course there was a rift between Inzi and Akthar about this. These days he hardly swings the ball (has it got to do with umpires watching the ball all the time), bowls non stop short ball, gets hammered by the likes of Balaji, loses his head and bowls beamers, after about an over or two his average speed is in 140s and now his wicket taking ball is the slower one. He is neither devastating or is he the bowler that the opponents need to fear. Asif well and truly is the spearhead of Pakistan bowling. Umar Gul and the rest can play a supporting role to Asif. There in lies the best chances for Pakistan to win consistently and not by playing Akthar. Inzi and the team management although have woken up late have at least done it at the right time.

[Rohan495]

Re: Shoaib Left out of squad for SA The most profound memory i have of Shoaib Akthar was him getting smashed in the world cup by Tendulkar. Thats all is to be said in regards to shoaib.

[Predator_05]

Re: Shoaib Left out of squad for SA

By your own admission and yardstick Shoaib is hardly devastating going by the following stats against Australia, South Africa and India : 2 matches in all he has played against New Zeland and if you reckon he is going to be taking a wicket for every 5 runs now we must be kidding ourselves. You know where the overall average of 25 is coming from Look at the numbers closely, more the number of tests he has played his record has worsened. His records are great against an opponent when he has played very few test matches. Even against Zimbabwe when he has played 4 test matches he is unable to match his overall average. I've seen you absolutely disregard Murali saying his action isn't legal. I'd be interested to know what your opinion about Akthar's bowling action would be. Also would like to know if he really deserves to be playing after the doping issues. These two aren't a barometer but are an attribute to his records.

Interesting ! I was never aware of the fact this stats are so mediocre. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I was under the impression that they would be better than that - as i can recall that he had taken two 5 wicket hauls on his last tour of Australia, and another 5 wicket haul (in Colombo) in the last series the two teams played on neutral territory. Against SA, he won them two matches back in '03 and '98 and 'til date, these are the only wins Pakistan have had against them. My point still stands though. I appreciate the research you put in to underpin your argument but unfortunately you can't really gauge how devastating a bowler is by looking at their stats. Stats just quantify performances and don't show the quality of a spell; and some of his best performances were very devastating. I don't know how you can quantify the havoc that a bowler can wreak upon a batting lineup; but Shoaib has done that plenty of times and bowled some freakishly good spells consistently throughout his career. The bouncers, the yorkers, the reverse swing delivered at high speed could be devastating at times. It just depends on your definition of "devastating", i suppose. Shoaib wrecking the stumps of Mark Waugh, Ponting and Gilchrist with 150 kmph deliveries counts as devastating for me. Even other super fast men like Griffith, Sylvester Clarke and Devon Malcolm had very short test careers and their stats don't weigh up against the bowling greats in the pantheon - but no one can refute that they weren't devastating. Shoaib is just a modern day Pakistani version of those bowlers and in the same class. Bond would be in that class as well - since he has played very little test cricket and might not even reach 42 tests. Re; Murali - i do think he chucks and is a cheat; no different from Shoaib in any way. They both claim to be demented and they are deliberate cheats who have been caught in the act plenty of times. But that's a discussion for another thread...

[Anakin]

Re: Shoaib Left out of squad for SA

The most profound memory i have of Shoaib Akthar was him getting smashed in the world cup by Tendulkar. Thats all is to be said in regards to shoaib.

Also watch Veeru's triple, should be a lot of fun :hmph:

[MundaPakistani]

Re: Shoaib Left out of squad for SA

Interesting ! I was never aware of the fact this stats are so mediocre. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I was under the impression that they would be better than that - as i can recall that he had taken two 5 wicket hauls on his last tour of Australia, and another 5 wicket haul (in Colombo) in the last series the two teams played on neutral territory. Against SA, he won them two matches back in '03 and '98 and 'til date, these are the only wins Pakistan have had against them.

He made a slow start to his career....i remember he played in that high scoring draw where Taylor made 334* and then went to have an average series against in AUS in 1999! How ever your point that Shoaib has played a huge part in PAK's wins since year 2000 is proven by the following stats JAN 1 2000- FEB 2006 unfiltered 42 537 47 10.74 0 0 165 6/11 25.69 12 11 0 filtered 29 467 47 12.28 0 0 131 6/11 21.87 11 7 0 Out of these 29 tests PAK went on to win 15(more than 50%) of them....and that best of 6/11 that you see was against NZ on the same pitch where PAK scored 643 including a triple century from Inzi and since year 2000 Shoaib has basically dominated every team except India.

[MundaPakistani]

Re: Shoaib Left out of squad for SA

The most profound memory i have of Shoaib Akthar was him getting smashed in the world cup by Tendulkar. Thats all is to be said in regards to shoaib.

oh....did you watch his spell at Calcutta?

[Anakin]

Re: Shoaib Left out of squad for SA

The most profound memory i have of Shoaib Akthar was him getting smashed in the world cup by Tendulkar. Thats all is to be said in regards to shoaib.

oh....did you watch his spell at Calcutta?

His cheating ie shoving tendu and his bat out of the crease was the reason for the win rather than couple of good balls and how long can you live on two good balls to get rid of tendu and dravid.

[MundaPakistani]

Re: Shoaib Left out of squad for SA

The most profound memory i have of Shoaib Akthar was him getting smashed in the world cup by Tendulkar. Thats all is to be said in regards to shoaib.

oh....did you watch his spell at Calcutta?

His cheating ie shoving tendu and his bat out of the crease was the reason for the win rather than couple of good balls and how long can you live on two good balls to get rid of tendu and dravid.

Last time i checked us human beings didn't have eyes on the back of our heads...so quit being bitter.

[Anakin]

Re: Shoaib Left out of squad for SA Who has that clip, don't think chucky just backed up on srt

[MundaPakistani]

Re: Shoaib Left out of squad for SA Here you can watch it!

[King]

Re: Shoaib Left out of squad for SA

By your own admission and yardstick Shoaib is hardly devastating going by the following stats against Australia, South Africa and India : 2 matches in all he has played against New Zeland and if you reckon he is going to be taking a wicket for every 5 runs now we must be kidding ourselves. You know where the overall average of 25 is coming from Look at the numbers closely, more the number of tests he has played his record has worsened. His records are great against an opponent when he has played very few test matches. Even against Zimbabwe when he has played 4 test matches he is unable to match his overall average. I've seen you absolutely disregard Murali saying his action isn't legal. I'd be interested to know what your opinion about Akthar's bowling action would be. Also would like to know if he really deserves to be playing after the doping issues. These two aren't a barometer but are an attribute to his records.

Interesting ! I was never aware of the fact this stats are so mediocre. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I was under the impression that they would be better than that - as i can recall that he had taken two 5 wicket hauls on his last tour of Australia, and another 5 wicket haul (in Colombo) in the last series the two teams played on neutral territory. Against SA, he won them two matches back in '03 and '98 and 'til date, these are the only wins Pakistan have had against them. My point still stands though. I appreciate the research you put in to underpin your argument but unfortunately you can't really gauge how devastating a bowler is by looking at their stats. Stats just quantify performances and don't show the quality of a spell; and some of his best performances were very devastating. I don't know how you can quantify the havoc that a bowler can wreak upon a batting lineup; but Shoaib has done that plenty of times and bowled some freakishly good spells consistently throughout his career. The bouncers, the yorkers, the reverse swing delivered at high speed could be devastating at times. It just depends on your definition of "devastating", i suppose. Shoaib wrecking the stumps of Mark Waugh, Ponting and Gilchrist with 150 kmph deliveries counts as devastating for me. Even other super fast men like Griffith, Sylvester Clarke and Devon Malcolm had very short test careers and their stats don't weigh up against the bowling greats in the pantheon - but no one can refute that they weren't devastating. Shoaib is just a modern day Pakistani version of those bowlers and in the same class. Bond would be in that class as well - since he has played very little test cricket and might not even reach 42 tests. Re; Murali - i do think he chucks and is a cheat; no different from Shoaib in any way. They both claim to be demented and they are deliberate cheats who have been caught in the act plenty of times. But that's a discussion for another thread...

Fair enough I hear ya on some of the points you have made. In the class of Devon Malcom or say Clarke surely he can be listed. Pakistanis mostly hype him as if he is the best since sliced bread just by quoting few balls he has bowled. He is no more than a fourth tier bowler in world cricket of all times but they will keep quoting his average and strike rate to make people believe he is among the best. His average and strike rate is highly inflated due to some good performances against not so good batting teams. Shoaib is fast no doubt, gets a lot of batters heart racing but as I said it will take couple of good shots or three to get him out of the attack. Shoaib has a very weak heart and mind. His body language when the going gets tough is very poor. One of the fastest and lethal in a 3-5 over spell when he is in good rhythm but he cannot summon the fitness and rhythm on a daily basis. Moreover this prima donna is a very bad influence for the young ones in the team. IMO Pakistan is better off without him and they should concentrate on giving their bench more opportunity. This they have started to realize and they rightly haven't chosen him for the tour to South Africa.

[King]

Re: Shoaib Left out of squad for SA I'm sure you must have read Waqar's comments on Shoaib already but just posting here for the sake of rest of the readers.

'Just bowl, mate': Waqar slams Shoaib Wisden CricInfo staff June 24, 2003 Waqar Younis, the former Pakistan captain, has publicly criticised Shoaib Akhtar's bowling performances in the NatWest Challenge. Pakistan failed the challenge 2-1, and Shoaib, who missed the first match while serving a ban for ball-tampering, returned figures of 2 for 69 and 0 for 40 in the last two matches - both of which Pakistan lost. According to a report in The Independent, Waqar didn't mince his words, coming up with a stinging attack on Shoaib. "It's ridiculous Shoaib coming out in the papers saying he's going to do this or do that. He's been doing it for a few years now and he never lives up to it and it looks pretty ugly. He performs to his ability once a year - and then he has the nerve to compare himself with Glenn McGrath. He was saying last week that if he'd been born Australian, he'd have taken more wickets. It might have been better for Pakistan if he had been born in Australia. "I've always helped Shoaib and tried to make him a better bowler, but I don't know what's wrong with him. Pace isn't everything. What's the point doing 100mph if you can't put the ball in the right place? "Shoaib thinks he knows it all already - but in cricket you're always learning. I'm still learning after all these years. Shoaib is a good bowler. I wanted him in the World Cup squad. But he just doesn't do what he says. He bigs himself up beyond what he's capable of. He likes to be in the papers and be flash - but he just doesn't deliver on the field. Look at Friday [the second ODI against England, at The Oval]: it was painful to see the way Pakistan played. It was painful to see the way he was bowling. "Fair enough, you fight and you lose. But he's always saying, 'I'm going to do this or I'm going to do that.' Just bowl, mate. Just stop talking and bowl." Waqar was responding to an interview where Shoaib attributed Pakistan's dismal performance in the World Cup to the fact that Waqar and Wasim Akram were "declining forces".