Lurker Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 ^ lol kuch bhi? Nahi yaar kuch bhi nahin bhai. If I ask the question - What has India achieved post Independence? Does that make me anti-national now? OR If I ask the question - How has life of OBC's changed after 60 years of reservation? Does that make me a casteist as well? If the answer to both is Yes then I am now officially an anti-national, sexist and casteist chap :((:(( But if not, then why this sensitivity? Surely we all need to do intrsospection, including woman. Nothing wrong with that. Or is there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prakat Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 ^ englishman: what has India achieved with the independence given to them? Both we and you Indians need to do some introspection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DomainK Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 WHAT???? Sorry, two "finger" test where a doctor inserts two fingers into the victim's vagina to check laxity and determine if rape actually happened. His conclusion is admissible in a court of law in India. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DomainK Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Nice article from a gang rape survivor: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/08/opinion/after-being-raped-i-was-wounded-my-honor-wasnt.html?_r=1& Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jairamesh Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Delhi gang rape accused lived on margins of India's economic boom BADAUN/NEW DELHI: In a village in Uttar Pradesh, a woman sits hunched on the ground in a green shawl, visibly weak and shivering in the January cold. She says she has not eaten for days, and neither have her five young children. She has never heard of Manmohan Singh, India's prime minister, having never ventured further from her village than a nearby market town, and ekes out a living working in potato fields on other people's land. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/c...w/17995499.cms This in itself is a massive issue, illiteracy is India's biggest devil. But a big boon for predatory politics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jairamesh Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Nice article from a gang rape survivor: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/08/opinion/after-being-raped-i-was-wounded-my-honor-wasnt.html?_r=1& From the article: When I was 17, I could not have imagined thousands of people marching against rape in India, as we have seen these past few weeks. And yet there is still work to be done. We have spent generations constructing elaborate systems of patriarchy, caste and social and sexual inequality that allow abuse to flourish. But rape is not inevitable, like the weather. We need to shelve all the gibberish about honor and virtue and did-she-lead-him-on and could-he-help-himself. We need to put responsibility where it lies: on men who violate women, and on all of us who let them get away with it while we point accusing fingers at their victims. The lack of fluent justice system is failing to deter the rapists. Already another gang-rape incident involving a bus in Punjab is doing the news rounds globally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crookbond Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Sorry' date=' two "finger" test where a doctor inserts two fingers into the victim's vagina to check laxity and determine if rape actually happened. His conclusion is admissible in a court of law in India.[/quote'] It has been specifically directed not to use this test any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raghav_12 Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 What is the sex ratio in India and the US? 91 Census - 927 01 Census - 933 11 Census - 940 Don't you appreciate the fact that Indian Banking Industry provides such condusive atmoshphere which allows both genders to grow to the top, which US is nowhere close to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Outsider Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 91 Census - 927 01 Census - 933 11 Census - 940 Don't you appreciate the fact that Indian Banking Industry provides such condusive atmoshphere which allows both genders to grow to the top, which US is nowhere close to? Yeah I appreciate it, but if you think a country's banking sector providing a conducive atmosphere is even remotely close in importance to the fact that the same country has eliminated 50 million women all I can do is laugh. A country's priority by a huge distance should be to address the gender imbalance which the US does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raghav_12 Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Yeah I appreciate it, but if you think a country's banking sector providing a conducive atmosphere is even remotely close in importance to the fact that the same country has eliminated 50 million women all I can do is laugh. A country's priority by a huge distance should be to address the gender imbalance which the US does. Kerala and Tamilnadu has same sex ratio as US does. So in these two states you believe women are as empowered as in US? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Outsider Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Kerala and Tamilnadu has same sex ratio as US does. So in these two states you believe women are as empowered as in US? It's a start. At least they are being given a chance to live rather than being talked about in terms of banking sector women empowerment on one hand and being disposed off with the other hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 It's a start. At least they are being given a chance to live rather than being talked about in terms of banking sector women empowerment on one hand and being disposed off with the other hand. I wouldnt be so dismissive of Indian women's accomplishment in Banking sector of India Shwetabh. Not sure what it is but I have always seen a lot of woman in the Indian banks. A LOT. You know it is almost like certain sectors - HR for example - which is heavily dominated by woman. And I am talking of pre-computer days when you walk to a bank, with a cheque and they look at the ledger and not some computer. I say that because it breaks so many stereotypes. Not least the fact that women hate Maths and numbers :cantstop: yeah I get your assertion that banking success does not mean women liberation but Indian banking sector and women participation is fantastic. if you walk to a HDFC chances are you will see an even mix of girls working with potential loan seekers. At times even outnumbering the men. And I raise my hat for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raghav_12 Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 It's a start. At least they are being given a chance to live rather than being talked about in terms of banking sector women empowerment on one hand and being disposed off with the other hand. I mentioned these two states becuase of your assertion that gender (im)balance is only parameter that determines women empowerment of the society. On chance to live part, first US should do something about 1.5 million infants which are not given a chance to live, annually. Anyways, my point here was that adaption of US system and society doesn't necessarily mean women empowerment as many people have suggested in this thread. India has problems but they can solve in their own way. Questioning conservative outlook of indian society and declaring this as root cause of problems of females in India is not justified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Outsider Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 I mentioned these two states becuase of your assertion that gender (im)balance is only parameter that determines women empowerment of the society. Please quote the post where I said gender imbalance is the only parameter to determine women empowerment. It is a very basic parameter though and certainly more relevant to determine women empowerment than the banking sector (). On chance to live part, first US should do something about 1.5 million infants which are not given a chance to live, annually. Abortions are not the same as female infanticide and foeticide. Do you seriously consider the two to be equivalent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Merlyn Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Sorry' date=' two "finger" test where a doctor inserts two fingers into the victim's vagina to check laxity and determine if rape actually happened. His conclusion is admissible in a court of law in India.[/quote'] Thats a scientific test TBH.Nothing wrong in it.There are ofcourse other tests done as well.Like a Colposcopy,Vaginal Washing tests etc etc etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Outsider Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 yeah I get your assertion that banking success does not mean women liberation but Indian banking sector and women participation is fantastic. if you walk to a HDFC chances are you will see an even mix of girls working with potential loan seekers. At times even outnumbering the men. And I raise my hat for that. I am appreciative of the role of women in the banking sector - my point is that using something as trivial as the banking sector as a sign of women empowerment when so many basic parameters like gender imbalance, poorer levels of education, dowry, health, child prostitution, trafficking etc. etc. are messed up for them in the society is a cruel joke. Listen to this recent BBC report: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p012x7vy/Assignment_Indias_Lost_Girls/ With such important issues, does it make sense to chest beat about banking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crookbond Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Thats a scientific test TBH.Nothing wrong in it.There are ofcourse other tests done as well.Like a Colposcopy' date='Vaginal Washing tests etc etc etc.[/quote'] Just because it scientific does not mean it is "acceptable". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raghav_12 Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Please quote the post where I said gender imbalance is the only parameter to determine women empowerment. It is a very basic parameter though and certainly more relevant to determine women empowerment than the banking sector (). Abortions are not the same as female infanticide and foeticide. Do you seriously consider the two to be equivalent? Abortions are foeticides. Can you tell me how abortion is not foeticide? Though Abortions are different from selective abortions, but in either case mothers or both parents are deciding to abort as they don't want to have that particular child, under different circumstances. Gender imbalance is not completely about hatred for female child, it is also about preference for male child for multiple reasons, economics being one of them. Communities which would have majority employed in labour-intensive industries are likely to prefer a male child who would be able to suport family in few years. Most of the third world countries are making this transition away from labour based industries and gender imbalance will improve over time. China has similar sex ratio as India and so does many other third world countries. In India sex ratio is worst for Sikhs (895), better for Hindus and best for Muslims (among these three religions) but I am not sure if that is also the order of status that females enjoy in these societies in India. Sex ratio is one parameter but you are giving way too much emphasis to that. Also all gender imbalance is not because of foeticides or infanticides. If families tend to satisfy with first one or two children being boys and won't grow family any further, while in case of first one or two children being girl they would like to grow family further, then in long run it would lead to gender imbalance without any kind of foeticides or infanticides. Another fact which many is not aware of that naturally God send more males in this world than females. Sex ratio at birth, across world is 107 baby boys to 100 baby girls (In India overall sex ratio is 108 male to 100 females) But higher mortality rates in boys bring this ratio close to even. Now if there are greater effort to save a male child than female child then you would have a society with more males than females. Lastly, given good medical facilities female life expectancy is much more then male expectancy. So in developed countries you would see many more aged females than males, levelling out some of the imbalance in younger age groups. In EU and US, there are only 73 males per 100 females in 65+ age groups. However, in poor So attributing gender imbalance of any society completely to female foeticide or infanticide is not scietific. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raghav_12 Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 I am appreciative of the role of women in the banking sector - my point is that using something as trivial as the banking sector as a sign of women empowerment when so many basic parameters like gender imbalance, poorer levels of education, dowry, health, child prostitution, trafficking etc. etc. are messed up for them in the society is a cruel joke. Listen to this recent BBC report: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p012x7vy/Assignment_Indias_Lost_Girls/ With such important issues, does it make sense to chest beat about banking? Health Life Expectancy in India - Male 67.46 Females 72.6 Infant Mortality Rate in India- Almost Equal (2007 numbers - Male Children 55 per 1000 births, Females 56 per 1000 births. 2010 Numbers 49 and 46 respectively) Don't know where is difference as you are claiming. Prostitution and Trafficking Unfortunaltely all over the world Females suffer because of that. You can't single out India for doing discrimination against females on that. There are many stereotypes which are paddled by western media and media in general. It's good to check with numbers yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Outsider Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Abortions are foeticides. Can you tell me how abortion is not foeticide? Though Abortions are different from selective abortions, but in either case mothers or both parents are deciding to abort as they don't want to have that particular child, under different circumstances. Female foeticide is gender specific. Half a million females are aborted every year for no other reason except that they are females. The vast majority of abortions in the US are done in the first trimester. Obviously that's not possible in the case of female foeticide because the gender of the child is not known till around the 15th week or more. This increases the risk for the mother as well. Gender imbalance is not completely about hatred for female child, it is also about preference for male child for multiple reasons, economics being one of them. Communities which would have majority employed in labour-intensive industries are likely to prefer a male child who would be able to suport family in few years. Most of the third world countries are making this transition away from labour based industries and gender imbalance will improve over time. China has similar sex ratio as India and so does many other third world countries. Oh how nice! How relieved must be the girls to think that they are not hated but merely males are preferred over them. This is your standard for women empowerment? In India sex ratio is worst for Sikhs (895), better for Hindus and best for Muslims (among these three religions) but I am not sure if that is also the order of status that females enjoy in these societies in India. Sex ratio is one parameter but you are giving way too much emphasis to that. You are right - I should be looking at the banking sector! Also all gender imbalance is not because of foeticides or infanticides. If families tend to satisfy with first one or two children being boys and won't grow family any further, while in case of first one or two children being girl they would like to grow family further, then in long run it would lead to gender imbalance without any kind of foeticides or infanticides. This is a famous probability problem and the answer is that the ratio of male to female will be 1:1 in a society which wants all girls/boys. I'll leave it to you to read the solution: http://discuss.fogcreek.com/techInterview/default.asp?cmd=show&ixPost=150 Another fact which many is not aware of that naturally God send more males in this world than females. Sex ratio at birth, across world is 107 baby boys to 100 baby girls (In India overall sex ratio is 108 male to 100 females) But higher mortality rates in boys bring this ratio close to even. Now if there are greater effort to save a male child than female child then you would have a society with more males than females. So in a society where greater efforts are made to save the male child as opposed to the female, women are supposed to feel good about this? So attributing gender imbalance of any society completely to female foeticide or infanticide is not scietific. Do you have a problem reading and understanding things that you keep on making these kind of statements: 1. First you claimed that I said gender ratio was the only parameter, and when asked to provide a quote where I said it you are yet to come up with anything. 2. Now are claiming that I am saying gender balance is completely due to female foeticide and infanticide. Can you provide a quote where I have made that claim? 3. This isn't limited to this particular discussion - I remember how you went all in moral outrage by claiming that I said Tendulkar's 100th century to be the most disgraceful moment when my statement was that it was a disgraceful moment. So do you genuinely have a problem understanding statements and make them absolute statements to help you think in binary mode or you attribute false statements to others deliberately? Either way, it is pretty annoying. But yeah half a million female foeticides takes place in India every year and that's not a number to be sneezed at though it is not "completely" responsible for the gender imbalance as you dreamed up I claimed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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