FIR against Ashis Nandy after he says OBCs, SCs, STs most corrupt

[yoda]

There is no systemic bias against upper castes in Modern Indian society like you suggested. Sure, there are professional disadvantages that the youth have to face because of widespread reservation in government jobs and now even promotions, but there is no societal bias which exists.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/tamil-nadu/sc-to-examine-validity-of-69-per-cent-quota-law/article3932920.ece 98%, still no medical seat due to quota.

[ganeshran]

Around 120 seats in Lok Sabha can not be contested by anyone aside from SC/ST. if that is not systemic against forward caste, dont quite know what is. And yes it also deprives the BC from contesting these seats but that hardly makes things better for anyone.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/tamil-nadu/sc-to-examine-validity-of-69-per-cent-quota-law/article3932920.ece 98%, still no medical seat due to quota.

These are not examples of systemic bias, they are a form of professional disadvantage that students and politicians face. A person belonging to the upper caste (and even BCs) is not discriminated against by the rest of the society. Contrast that with SC/STs who even today are served tea in coconut shells in some villages and not allowed to use the same temples that caste hindus use. Systemic bias is what has existed in India for centuries where scheduled castes have been confined to the fringes of society and simply not allowed to gather any academic or vocational skills that could lead them to improve their position. After generations of discrimination led to their children being behind in every aspect, sudden lectures of equal opportunity and importance of merit seem extremely hypocritical on the part of Indian society. The only thing wrong with reservation is the absence of an economic component attached to it and exclusion of the second generation from the same reservation that parents were given.

[Lurker]

These are not examples of systemic bias' date=' they are a form of professional disadvantage that students and politicians face. [b']A person belonging to the upper caste (and even BCs) is not discriminated against by the rest of the society. Contrast that with SC/STs who even today are served tea in coconut shells in some villages and not allowed to use the same temples that caste hindus use. Systemic bias is what has existed in India for centuries where scheduled castes have been confined to the fringes of society and simply not allowed to gather any academic or vocational skills that could lead them to improve their position. After generations of discrimination led to their children being behind in every aspect, sudden lectures of equal opportunity and importance of merit seem extremely hypocritical on the part of Indian society. The only thing wrong with reservation is the absence of an economic component attached to it and exclusion of the second generation from the same reservation that parents were given.

You have got to be kidding me if you think a person is stopped from contesting an election simply because he is NOT SC/ST, is not discriminated against. This whole centuries saga should NOT be held against those who are living in this era. What's next? Should we sue England for plundering us for centuries too? Or does this century old saga holds true only to discriminate against fellow Indians??

[Desi Cartman]

These are not examples of systemic bias, they are a form of professional disadvantage that students and politicians face. A person belonging to the upper caste (and even BCs) is not discriminated against by the rest of the society. Contrast that with SC/STs who even today are served tea in coconut shells in some villages and not allowed to use the same temples that caste hindus use. Systemic bias is what has existed in India for centuries where scheduled castes have been confined to the fringes of society and simply not allowed to gather any academic or vocational skills that could lead them to improve their position. After generations of discrimination led to their children being behind in every aspect, sudden lectures of equal opportunity and importance of merit seem extremely hypocritical on the part of Indian society. The only thing wrong with reservation is the absence of an economic component attached to it and exclusion of the second generation from the same reservation that parents were given.

Coincidentally I was talking with a colleague about discrimination in temples but he said " its a cultural and religious issues, common men like me and you are too small to even comment". The reason we were talking about it was due to some discussion on how some temples dont allow even a 2 month old girl to be closer to GOD than men. So people are generally quite oblivious to these issues as they dont really impact them. Its very easy for a non-SC ST to say that discrimination is a thing of past. However, reservation is not an answer, probably scholarships or free education is, so no deserving student is left out.

[ganeshran]

You have got to be kidding me if you think a person is stopped from contesting an election simply because he is NOT SC/ST, is not discriminated against. This whole centuries saga should NOT be held against those who are living in this era. What's next? Should we sue England for plundering us for centuries too? Or does this century old saga holds true only to discriminate against fellow Indians??

A handful of candidates (close to a lakh) who are not allowed to contest elections from certain seats is not discrimination, especially when compared to the crores of people who are not even given equal social status (renting of houses, entry into temples etc) their entire lives even today. The centuries old practice must be corrected with affirmative action (more so in education) because there is no other way they are going to come up in life and will get caught in the same cycle of poverty where each generation is too poor to even give the most basic education to the next generation and get a shot at a better life.

[Crookbond]

Coincidentally I was talking with a colleague about discrimination in temples but he said " its a cultural and religious issues' date=' common men like me and you are too small to even comment". The reason we were talking about it was due to some discussion on how some temples dont allow even a 2 month old girl to be closer to GOD than men. So people are generally quite oblivious to these issues as they dont really impact them. [b']Its very easy for a non-SC ST to say that discrimination is a thing of past. However, reservation is not an answer, probably scholarships or free education is, so no deserving student is left out.

You are right but I don't think anyone is claiming that discrimination does not exist. However, the current method for tackling reservation is not a streamlined process or framework but jugaad viz. reservation. Therefore, it could be argued that reservation increases discrimination i.e. if there was a measurable unit for discrimination called the 'Discrimination Factor' (DF) - the amount of DF in the society remains more or less the same even after reservation.

[Desi Cartman]

You are right but I don't think anyone is claiming that discrimination does not exist. However' date=' the current method for tackling reservation is not a streamlined process or framework but jugaad viz. reservation. Therefore, it could be argued that reservation increases discrimination i.e. if there was a measurable unit for discrimination called the 'Discrimination Factor' (DF) - the amount of DF in the society remains more or less the same even after reservation.[/quote'] I like your theory but it quite funny to read about the DF :hysterical:

[Desi Cartman]

A handful of candidates (close to a lakh) who are not allowed to contest elections from certain seats is not discrimination, especially when compared to the crores of people who are not even given equal social status (renting of houses, entry into temples etc) their entire lives even today. The centuries old practice must be corrected with affirmative action (more so in education) because there is no other way they are going to come up in life and will get caught in the same cycle of poverty where each generation is too poor to even give the most basic education to the next generation and get a shot at a better life.

Why not give them assistance so more have opportunity to clear the exam rather than pushing them through. Why not have scholarships and free higher education for poor people ? Also, what fault is it ok a non SC ST 18 year old who is born in a poor family , should he be also getting the support ?

[ganeshran]

Coincidentally I was talking with a colleague about discrimination in temples but he said " its a cultural and religious issues' date=' common men like me and you are too small to even comment". The reason we were talking about it was due to some discussion on how some temples dont allow even a 2 month old girl to be closer to GOD than men. So people are generally quite oblivious to these issues as they dont really impact them. Its very easy for a non-SC ST to say that discrimination is a thing of past. [b']However, reservation is not an answer, probably scholarships or free education is, so no deserving student is left out.

Reservation is in no way perfect, a lot of it is hijacked by second/third generation beneficiaries who leave out the actual ones in need. That is why I strongly support an income ceiling on claiming reservation along with excluding candidates whose parents have also claimed similar reservation.

[Desi Cartman]

Reservation is in no way perfect' date=' a lot of it is hijacked by second/third generation beneficiaries who leave out the actual ones in need. That is why I strongly support an income ceiling on claiming reservation along with excluding candidates whose parents have also claimed similar reservation.[/quote'] Why is reservation needed why not scholarships from school to higher education so all poor can benefit ?

[ganeshran]

Why is reservation needed why not scholarships from school to higher education so all poor can benefit ?

Scholarships in which schools? If the government can provide quality education in public schools or give all poor candidates a shot at private schools for free, then there would be no need for reservations in colleges or jobs. However, given the state of our education infrastructure both these goals are a pipe dream. I fully agree that reservation in its current form is not ideal, but what is the alternative? Without reservation, the SC/ST communities and their future generations will continue to do the same kind of jobs in society that were forced to do so for centuries.

[The Outsider]

Lurker, yaar tum Bihar se ho and you are saying that societal discrimination does not exist against the lower castes? I find that surprising. Yeah, the middle class and modern Indian might not have it, but caste discrimination is so prevalent in UP/Bihar it's hard to ignore it and usually the brunt is against the lower castes.

[Lurker]

A handful of candidates (close to a lakh) who are not allowed to contest elections from certain seats is not discrimination, especially when compared to the crores of people who are not even given equal social status (renting of houses, entry into temples etc) their entire lives even today. The centuries old practice must be corrected with affirmative action (more so in education) because there is no other way they are going to come up in life and will get caught in the same cycle of poverty where each generation is too poor to even give the most basic education to the next generation and get a shot at a better life.

I can safely concur you are blinded, or acting like one to prove a point. To NOT allow folks to contest in around 25% of National seat is retarded. That means a FC born in these constituency will NEVER, repeat NEVER, be able to contest election in his own homeland. I belong to one such district by the way. And my constituency was represented by a SC woman who beat the DM with chappal. I am sure that gladdens your heart and starts the century of correction. :cheer:

[Lurker]

Lurker' date=' [b']yaar tum Bihar se ho and you are saying that societal discrimination does not exist against the lower castes? I find that surprising. Yeah, the middle class and modern Indian might not have it, but caste discrimination is so prevalent in UP/Bihar it's hard to ignore it and usually the brunt is against the lower castes.

It exists so deal with it in law and order fashion. Anybody who treats anyone else as anything less than fellow Indian citizen should be taken to task. Simple. How does it help if after 60 odd years my hometown, and many like mine, are completely off limits to anybody else SC/ST?? If not allowing a citizen of India to contest from Indian town is not systemic, dont quite know what is then.

[The Outsider]

It exists so deal with it in law and order fashion. Anybody who treats anyone else as anything less than fellow Indian citizen should be taken to task. Simple. How does it help if after 60 odd years my hometown, and many like mine, are completely off limits to anybody else SC/ST?? If not allowing a citizen of India to contest from Indian town is not systemic, dont quite know what is then.

I am not saying reservation is the answer to the problem, but you are denying the problem outright! I think I've written this anecdote earlier on ICF as well, but I was trekking in the Himalayas with a couple of friends and we came across this village which had a well from which we wanted to fill up our water. While we were roping the buckets down an old lady came and said we could not drink from that well. When asked why, she replied it's only for "Chhoti Jaati". We said we don't care about "Jaat Paat", and she replied, "Agar tumhe narak mein jaana hai to jaayo, lekin is paani ko piya to hum bhi jaayeinge. Humein nahin jaana narak mein" Does that give you an idea of what you are trying to sweep under the carpet?

[Tiger80]

A handful of candidates (close to a lakh) who are not allowed to contest elections from certain seats is not discrimination, especially when compared to the crores of people who are not even given equal social status (renting of houses, entry into temples etc) their entire lives even today. The centuries old practice must be corrected with affirmative action (more so in education) because there is no other way they are going to come up in life and will get caught in the same cycle of poverty where each generation is too poor to even give the most basic education to the next generation and get a shot at a better life.

The biggest affirmatve action which could had changed SC ST' position in society was land reform. Only 1.5% of land was redistributed after independence n India while 42% of land was redistributed in China .This type of redistribution was very difficult to implement in India because it could had caused civil war as Upper caste and OBC's will never give their land .53% of Indian workforce is employed in this sector Reservation in jobs is going to help only small minority as only 7% of Indian workforce is in organised service sector.If we leave out private sector then only around 4-5% Govt workforce will benefit from it.Even reservation in education will help them to get few more jobs but still large number of Scs and Sts will always be struck in jobs which they were doing from centuries.

[Desi Cartman]

I am not saying reservation is the answer to the problem, but you are denying the problem outright! I think I've written this anecdote earlier on ICF as well, but I was trekking in the Himalayas with a couple of friends and we came across this village which had a well from which we wanted to fill up our water. While we were roping the buckets down an old lady came and said we could not drink from that well. When asked why, she replied it's only for "Chhoti Jaati". We said we don't care about "Jaat Paat", and she replied, "Agar tumhe narak mein jaana hai to jaayo, lekin is paani ko piya to hum bhi jaayeinge. Humein nahin jaana narak mein" Does that give you an idea of what you are trying to sweep under the carpet?

I also had a similar experience when someone in our Dad's village refused us water since they were of choti jaat. Some of our uncles were so proud of our status while my dad said screw you to his brothers and we all had a nice drink :) .. Those poor people were so OTT excited, very sad to see but that was 20 years ago I guess. This is a story from HP .. from the days when we had to walk couple of kms to get our ancestral house in a village .. now they all have cell phones, cable TV and parking next to the house :isalute:

[Lurker]

I am not saying reservation is the answer to the problem' date=' [b']but you are denying the problem outright! I think I've written this anecdote earlier on ICF as well, but I was trekking in the Himalayas with a couple of friends and we came across this village which had a well from which we wanted to fill up our water. While we were roping the buckets down an old lady came and said we could not drink from that well. When asked why, she replied it's only for "Chhoti Jaati". We said we don't care about "Jaat Paat", and she replied, "Agar tumhe narak mein jaana hai to jaayo, lekin is paani ko piya to hum bhi jaayeinge. Humein nahin jaana narak mein" Does that give you an idea of what you are trying to sweep under the carpet?

Am I? I had written this article long time back, I do not need to rehash every single time now do I. http://indiancricketfans.com/showthread.php?t=88327 Back to the point, that casteism exists in India is not being denied, or even argued here. What is indeed being argued is how the measures that have been taken have done little to negate that. So after 60 years of making ST the MP in my hometown they are still discriminated. What does that tell you? Maybe that another 60 years of reservation is going to do nothing. If anything these MPs are often even bigger chor than the usual one, which is what Ashish Nandy was commenting here. It always bothers me how Indians argue for the heck of it. Do tell me how can you tell a citizen in a democratic country that he will NOT be allowed to contest election??

[Sachin=GOD]

A guide to infantalising and trivialising public sphere

It is no coincidence that Salman Rushdie who remains the poster child of censorship debate in India begins his celebrated Midnight's Children with the twin image of the birth of a child and that of a nation. The rest of the novel traces the intertwined stories of the child's growth with the political history of independent India. But if one were to extend this allegory taking into account the kind of public sphere that seems to exist in India 65 years after independence there seems to be something amiss about this metaphor of birth and subsequent growth into maturity. A strange malaise pervades the public sphere in India today, where it seems almost as if we have turned the natural cycle of growth around and the children of midnight appears to suffer from the malady of the protagonist in David Fincher's film, The Curious case of Benjamin Button, where a man is born a mature adult but ages backwards and slides into infantile regression. If one were to consider the unreasonable response to Ashis Nandy's talk at the Jaipur Literature Festival as one in a long continuum of such cases where individuals are hounded for hurting sentiments of communities, the Indian public sphere sadly appears as a weak and sickly child suffering from irony deficiency. Consider the fact that in 1922 Gandhi proudly declared that it was his duty to be seditious describing Section 124A of the Indian Penal Code as a prince among political provisions of harassment or Lala Lajpat Rai's bold response to the Indian Cinematograph Committee (which demanded greater censorship of cinema because Indians were not mature enough) that he did not want the future citizens of this country growing up in a nursery and that they should be exposed to all influences to enable them to arrive at better judgements. This situation has largely been brought to bear by a lethal combination: the existence of draconian penal provisions that curtail speech, a criminal justice system that makes it ridiculously easy for groups to file complaints on the basis that they have been hurt and an instrumental media that profits and feeds on the eruption of scandals. A plain reading of Ashis Nandy's statements at Jaipur makes it clear that far from making casteist slurs, he was actually critiquing a narrow understanding of corruption that did not question the unstated assumptions of upper class and caste privilege which to Nandy's mind is a greater form of corruption. Those who are up in arms against him seem to have huffed and puffed to a point of breathlessness and shortness of breath — doctors will tell you — can affect your hearing. So it might be worth our while to pause, take a deep breath and agree that even if we disagree with what Nandy said it may at best be a disagreement about form in which case one can generously shrug the statement as an awkwardly construed statement. If one disagrees with him in substance then let's pretend for a while that we are a mature democracy and challenge him intellectually. Filing a case under the SC/ST (Prevention of Atrocities Act) and the IPC against a speech act with absolutely no malicious intent only trivialises the intent that corrective legislations like the former were meant to address. Asad Ahmad in his work on blasphemy in colonial India demonstrates how criminal cases around hate speech then became public events by way of their circulation in media and through rumours so that legal claims of emotional hurt become the basis of mobilisation of affective communities centered on the public performance of emotion. This is a strategy that was perfected by the lumpen right wing which has unfortunately been adopted by all minority groups as well. Assuming that members of the Dalit community feel upset with the form of the statement as a result of historic prejudice, this would call for a verbal or intellectual redress rather than resorting to legal remedy or street protest. An often ignored virtue in the debate on free speech and censorship is the virtue of listening. The time has come to admit that freedom of speech and expression is highly overrated without an equal commitment to careful listening. This is particularly true when one lives in an eggshell democracy where every step we take, and every word we utter has to be carefully measured against the potential 'hurt' that can be caused. The true test of ademocracy lies as much in the amount of speech that it willingly grants its citizens as in the amount of uncomfortable speech that it is willing to listen to. Azra Tabassum, a writer in Delhi says "fearless speech demands fearless listening" and while Ashis Nandy is paying a heavy price for his speech, the real casualty of the entire affair will be on our collective ability to listen fearlessly and genuine speech in India will be held in perpetual ransom those who infantilise and trivialise our public sphere. The writer is a Bangalore-based lawyer and a founder of the Alternative Law Forum. Over the past few years, he has emerged as a spokesperson in India against concepts such as intellectual property

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/opinion/guest-writer/a-guide-to-infantalising-and-trivialising-public-sphere/articleshow/18247715.cms

[Raghav_12]

Nandy has been provided relief from Supreme Court which has barred his arrest. However, Nandy could have shown more courage, IMHO. SC bars Ashis Nandy's arrest, asks him to watch his words http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-news/NewDelhi/SC-bars-Ashis-Nandy-s-arrest-asks-him-to-watch-his-words/Article1-1004868.aspx

The Supreme Court on Friday stayed the arrest of eminent scholar and sociologist Ashis Nandy for making remarks alleged to be anti-Dalit at the Jaipur Literature Festival (JLF). Though the bench stayed his arrest, it said "he can't continue making statements like this. Whatever may be your intent you can't go on making statements." "Tell your client he has no license to make such comments," the bench told senior advocate Aman Lekhi who was appearing for 76-year-old Nandy. The apex court issued notices and sought response of the Centre and the Rajasthan Government on a petition filed by Nandy seeking quashing of the FIR lodged against him for making the alleged statements at a literary festival. "In the meantime, the petitioner (Nandy) will not be arrested in FIR filed in connection with the statement made by him at the JLF, on January 26," a bench headed by Chief Justice Altamas Kabir said. The bench also issued notices to the Governments of Chhattisgarh, Maharashtra and Bihar and sought their response within four weeks as FIRs, in connection with his statement, have been lodged against him in Raipur, Nasik and Patna respectively. The bench also comprising justices A R Dave and Vikramajit Sen told Nandy that statements "are to be made in a responsible manner". "Why do you say something which you don't want to intend," the court said when Lekhi was trying to impress upon the bench that a person cannot be punished for expressing an idea. During the proceedings, Lekhi contended that several FIRs at different places cannot be lodged for the same offence, to which the bench said,"It affects people all over. Don't go into that type of submissions." When Lekhi said that hysteria has been created, the bench shot back "who is creating (hysteria). Who is author of the statement. Please say what your client has instructed you to say." During a panel discussion at the Jaipur meet, Nandy had allegedly said that people belonging to OBCs and SCs/STs were more corrupt. Later, a case was registered against him under the SC/ST (Prevention of Atrocities) Act. The counsel said the scholar has already tendered an apology for his alleged statements. Nandy's counsel commenced the submissions by saying "can law penalise an idea". However, the bench said "we are not at all happy". Nandy, apprehending his arrest for the statements made by him, had moved the apex court yesterday for quashing of the FIR against him. Challenging the proceedings, he had submitted he was facing a serious threat in the surcharged environment against him. "Because of the surcharged environment against him and the rabid statements made by important political personalities, his physical safety is itself compromised and there is imminent threat of injury to him," his petition said. "In fact there was no mala fide intent or purpose on the part of the petitioner to make a comment in order to insult or intimidate with intent to humiliate a member of SC or ST in any place within public view," the petition also said. "The lodging of the said FIR against the petitioner for the alleged offence committed under SC/ST Act is against the basic principles of the fundamental rights which envisages that free speech is the foundation of a democratic society," it said. Outside the court, Nandy told reporters, I will have to be careful now. The case is sub-judice. I am grateful to the Supreme Court for the relief and to my legal team for making such an excellent case of defence for me." "I am also grateful to the media for giving me much support, but for one or two rare exceptions. Also, people of India have stood by me," he said.