Reminscing and stating the obvious - India's best keeper ever

[The Outsider]

The factor that you left out was the pitches. I think Sreesanth and Ishant play on much more flat tracks than a Madan Lal' date=' Binny would have. This makes the comparison complex as there are other factors to think about.[/quote'] Binny played two thirds of his matches in India and Madan Lal around half. Both Sreesanth and Ishant have played many more matches outside India than at home. Now unless you are saying that home pitches in India in the 80s offered more chances to the keeper than away pitches today your point has no standing or relevance.

[The Outsider]

Nit pick but it's 7th. Note that his "ratings" are based purely on statistics and include "runs scored" as well. It will be interesting to do his analysis without runs scored. I think in that case you may have the Healy's' date=' Knott's. Talon's and Taylor's showing up in the list.[/quote'] A cornerstone of any statistical analysis is doing a sanity check on your results. Any such "analysis" which ranks Akmal in the top 10 keepers ever, even after accounting for his batting has easily crossed over in the realm of insanity and should be thrown in the garbage bin and never be published.

[Crookbond]

Binny played two thirds of his matches in India and Madan Lal around half. Both Sreesanth and Ishant have played many more matches outside India than at home. Now unless you are saying that home pitches in India in the 80s offered more chances to the keeper than away pitches today your point has no standing or relevance.

Sreesanth has played 12 Test matches in Asia and 3 in the West Indies out of a total of 27 Test matches. Asia - 44%, Asia + WI - 55% Ishant Sharma has played 22 Test matches in India, 6 in Sri Lanka and 3 in the West Indies. Asia - 54%, Asia + WI - 60% Madan Lal played 18 Test matches in Asia. 46% Very similar numbers; don't see much of a difference. PS - There's a reason I include modern day West Indies as the pitches mostly are slow and low.

[The Outsider]

Sreesanth has played 12 Test matches in Asia and 3 in the West Indies out of a total of 27 Test matches. Asia - 44%, Asia + WI - 55% Ishant Sharma has played 22 Test matches in India, 6 in Sri Lanka and 3 in the West Indies. Asia - 54%, Asia + WI - 60% Madan Lal played 18 Test matches in Asia. 46% Very similar numbers; don't see much of a difference. PS - There's a reason I include modern day West Indies as the pitches mostly are slow and low.

Binny played 75% of his matches in Asia and Madan Lal 55%. No difference? And no Sabina Park and Kensington Oval are not low and slow even today. Most wickets there are taken by pace bowlers even today.

[Marut]

Utter garbage as expected by Anantha Narayan. For starters doesn't take into account how bowling attacks vary from one keeper to another for the same country. The guy is a complete hack, which would have been fine if he was not posing around as some statistician. Don't waste your time on this idiot, he doesn't even publish comments which give a numerical and empirical debunking of his sophistry. EDIT: Just noticed his "ratings" rank Akmal as the fourth best keeper ever. If there was proof needed for his idiocy you'll struggle to find something better.

Note that the article is about the whole contribution of the wicket keeper, keeper + batsman and probably the batsman side is more favoured in that overall analysis. Read the article fully, Kamran is finally ranked 7th, not 4th. Akmal is a bit odd there, agreed, but not other names. Gilchrist Boucher Dhoni Marsh Healy Dujon Kamran Akmal Richardson McCullum A Flower. How is it that an utterly poor Kamran Akmal imagined by you averages 4 dismissals per test and 50+ runs per test and also accounts for 44% of team dismissals? I would say the article brought to light the brighter side of Kamran to those who know him only as a habitual catch dropper! Anyways, there are no accurate records available for a list of dropped catches/ missed stumpings since the dawn of cricket, so these factors had no way to figure in Anantha's otherwise decent analysis. If you have that listing for all the keepers who have ever played, you are free to post here.

[Crookbond]

Binny played 75% of his matches in Asia and Madan Lal 55%. No difference? And no Sabina Park and Kensington Oval are not low and slow even today. Most wickets there are taken by pace bowlers even today.

I have not included Binny as he's the only one whom your argument holds true. Sreesanth too has played 44% of matches in India. Even without including WI the numbers are not as you made it out to be i.e. Madan Lal, Ishant Sharma played exactly the same around of matches in Asia. In similar vein of your Sabina/Kengsington Oval argument, there will be many pitches outside Asia were Sreesanth/Ishant would've bowled on flat tracks and there will be many pitches in Asia were Binny might have had some help from the track. A casual overlook of statistics will not reveal those true details. I think you understand what I'm coming to. My larger point is this - I am fine with you stating that Kirmani is the best WK India has ever had. You might have your reasons. I am also fine with not using dismissals as a barometer. I have a beef with just that 1 point of yours which I highlighted. If you want to compare, make it apples vs apples. If not, make sure you do a fair assessment for either ways not like Ishant has played "many more games outside India" which was not quite true.

[The Outsider]

Note that the article is about the whole contribution of the wicket keeper, keeper + batsman and probably the batsman side is more favoured in that overall analysis. Read the article fully, Kamran is finally ranked 7th, not 4th. Akmal is a bit odd there, agreed, but not other names. Gilchrist Boucher Dhoni Marsh Healy Dujon Kamran Akmal Richardson McCullum A Flower. How is it that an utterly poor Kamran Akmal imagined by you averages 4 dismissals per test and 50+ runs per test and also accounts for 44% of team dismissals? I would say the article brought to light the brighter side of Kamran to those who know him only as a habitual catch dropper! Anyways, there are no accurate records available for a list of dropped catches/ missed stumpings since the dawn of cricket, so these factors had no way to figure in Anantha's otherwise decent analysis. If you have that listing for all the keepers who have ever played, you are free to post here.

I've watched enough cricket to know that any analysis which ranks Akmal, even taking into account his batting, in the top 10 keepers ever is utter garbage. As I said above the cornerstone of any statistical analysis is doing a sanity check on your results and Akmal being in the top 10 keepers ever is well within the realms of insanity, so far in that the author should check into the nearest psychiatric ward.

[The Outsider]

I have not included Binny as he's the only one whom your argument holds true. Sreesanth too has played 44% of matches in India. Even without including WI the numbers are not as you made it out to be i.e. Madan Lal, Ishant Sharma played exactly the same around of matches in Asia.

Pretty convenient, given that Binny and Sreesanth are a very relevant comparison given the fact that they played the same number of tests.

In similar vein of your Sabina/Kengsington Oval argument, there will be many pitches outside Asia were Sreesanth/Ishant would've bowled on flat tracks and there will be many pitches in Asia were Binny might have had some help from the track. A casual overlook of statistics will not reveal those true details. I think you understand what I'm coming to.

And the opposite would hold true as well. Moreover, the more assisting tracks of the 80s would be easily nullified with fewer overs bowled in a match, to make the pace of the bowlers a relevant argument.

My larger point is this - I am fine with you stating that Kirmani is the best WK India has ever had. You might have your reasons. I am also fine with not using dismissals as a barometer. I have a beef with just that 1 point of yours which I highlighted. If you want to compare, make it apples vs apples. If not, make sure you do a fair assessment for either ways not like Ishant has played "many more games outside India" which was not quite true.

It's not about Kirmani or XYZ being the best keeper. It's about pointing out to the deficiencies in using dismissals per match as a barometer and the pace of the bowlers the keeper kept to is one of the relevant factors to be talked about in any such analysis.

[Crookbond]

Pretty convenient, given that Binny and Sreesanth are a very relevant comparison given the fact that they played the same number of tests.

Not convenient but I didn't disagree on Binny/Sreesanth comparison or rather corrected by earlier stand. That said, you have conveniently ignored Ishant/Madan Lal as well - that makes just one bowler as the difference in the comparison.

And the opposite would hold true as well. Moreover, the more assisting tracks of the 80s would be easily nullified with fewer overs bowled in a match, to make the pace of the bowlers a relevant argument.

Precisely my point. Detailed outlook needed before drawing a conclusion.

It's not about Kirmani or XYZ being the best keeper. It's about pointing out to the deficiencies in using dismissals per match as a barometer and the pace of the bowlers the keeper kept to is one of the relevant factors to be talked about in any such analysis.

Already agreed and as long as it is "one of the factors" it's good enough.