Reminscing and stating the obvious - India's best keeper ever

[Brainfade]

As someone in his 40s, I tend to reminisce about the "good ol' days" of cricket. Gavaskar, Kapil Dev, Viswanath, Vengsarkar, Mohinder ... these are the guys who are etched in memory. The irrational fan-dom that one develops for his idols carries over to middle and old ages, and we tend to think that they were the best ever, and that none of the current players match those seemingly lofty standards. Which brings me to Syed Kirmani. From my childhood and on to my teenage years , I was a huge fan of Kirmani. First of all, he was from my home state - a Bangalore hero! A livewire, athletic keeper with unmatched flair. His stumpings were lightning fast and he made some spectacular catches. His batting was charming - no backlift, little technique, but very effective. I clearly remember the 101* he made against Australia at Bombay in 1979, and frustrated them with a 100+ partnership for the 8th or 9th wicket with Karsan Ghavri who made a quick 86. And who can forget the supporting role he played when Kapil made his epic 175 in WC '83? An absolute street-fighter. So, I was convinced that he was the best ever. He had played a 100 test matches and had had 400+ catches and 100+ stumpiings and no one could touch him. Come to find out, he played 88 matches and had 160 catches and 38 stumpings. In comparison, Dhoni has played 77 matches with 212 catches and 38 stumpings. With comparable attacks. If anything, Kirmani had it better in that regard - Kapil Dev, and before him, the spin quartet were in his corner. Numbers may not tell the whole story. Dhoni's keeping may not be as pretty to watch. But, there is no denying that he is statistically superior - even as a test-keeper. And if one includes ODIs and T20s, they are not even on the same planet. So, dear SMH, you enriched my childhood cricket-watching experiences. I thank you, but if I had to pencil in a keeper for an all-time India team, I would have to go with MSD.

[vvvslaxman]

Kirmani was a horrible keeper in the mid 70s.. he became better in the 80s.

[Brainfade]

Kirmani was a horrible keeper in the mid 70s.. he became better in the 80s.

I don't remember that. My first clear memory of watching cricket is from 1978-79. Regardless, before MSD was established in the Indian team, I don't know that I would have picked anyone but SMH as the all-time India keeper. People much older than I am swore that Farokh Engineer was much better; some even go back to Budhi Kunderan. Maybe they were better; if they were, it wasn't by much! But, none of them match up to MSD.

[vvvslaxman]

I don't remember that. My first clear memory of watching cricket is from 1978-79. Regardless, before MSD was established in the Indian team, I don't know that I would have picked anyone but SMH as the all-time India keeper. People much older than I am swore that Farokh Engineer was much better; some even go back to Budhi Kunderan. Maybe they were better; if they were, it wasn't by much! But, none of them match up to MSD.

Nope before that. THere was an article i remember posting about Kirmani's keeping sometime back from the 70s as how his keeping cost India badly. Moreover India didn't have the likes of Marshall, Holding, Thomson, Imran Khan who were quick . Kapil a pretty accurate bowler. Not a wayward bowlers like we have now. Rest of the guys were slow bowlers slightly quicker than Ganguly . You just have to be really good against spin bowling.

[Muloghonto]

I don't remember that. My first clear memory of watching cricket is from 1978-79. Regardless, before MSD was established in the Indian team, I don't know that I would have picked anyone but SMH as the all-time India keeper. People much older than I am swore that Farokh Engineer was much better; some even go back to Budhi Kunderan. Maybe they were better; if they were, it wasn't by much! But, none of them match up to MSD.

To be honest, I rate Mongia and Engineer as our best pure keepers I've seen. I saw a lot of Kiri back in the day but one knock against Kiri is that he didnt keep much to really good spin bowlers, while Mongia and Engineer kept to some of the best spinners. Keeping to the best spinners is the hardest thing to do IMo.

[saket123]

yea I remember watching Kirmani.. also remember him coming into Hindi Movies and being the ready-to-jump-into-action side gunda. I concur.. I thought Mongia was really good. Sadanand Vishwanath was pretty decent too.

[saket123]

Since we are reminiscing.... remember those early morning India vs Australia matches played in Australia? Stump microphones made their debut and a clean bowled wicket sounded like someone peeling off a sugar cane.. LOL.. aaahh those were the days!... so simple.. and so much value to the game.

[G_B_]

I personally dont know what the big fuss was about Kirmani I would rate Engineer who opened highly than him.

[The Outsider]

Come to find out, he played 88 matches and had 160 catches and 38 stumpings. In comparison, Dhoni has played 77 matches with 212 catches and 38 stumpings. With comparable attacks. If anything, Kirmani had it better in that regard - Kapil Dev, and before him, the spin quartet were in his corner.

Kirmani was in a different league as a keeper than Dhoni - there is simply no comparison. I don't have too much time to do a detailed analysis, but the Indian attacks and circumstances Kirmani kept under were vastly different from Dhoni to make a simple numbers comparison irrelevant. A quick glance on stats guru gives me the following information which nullifies any such comparison: 1. In Kirmani's time fast bowlers bowled around one third of the total overs from India and in Dhoni's time than number is around half. Obviously keepers get more chances keeping to fast bowlers than spinners. 2. The number of innings Kirmani kept in was 151 and Dhoni is at 143. So, the gap is not even close to as wide as suggested by the number of tests they played in. 3. Kirmani played 29 out of 88 tests - 32.x% - in Australia, England, NZ, and WI places where keepers are more likely to get catches. Dhoni played 36.x% in Australia, England, NZ, WI, and SA. 4. Kirmani kept to one bowler largely to have sufficient pace for a decent percentage of catches to go to the keeper - Kapil. Dhoni kept to Zaheer, Ishant, Sreesanth, RP Singh, Pathan, Yadav who were all much quicker than Binny, Ghavri, Madan Lal increasing their percentage of dismissals likely to the keeper. 5. Only 40 out of Kirmani's 88 tests gave results - 45% whereas Dhoni has featured in 66% of matches with results. Clearly there were more wicket taking opportunities for Dhoni.

[Muloghonto]

But Let, Dhoni kept to much better spinners than Kiri did. Kiri kept to the fearsome foursome spinners for like 25 of his 88 tests or something, since then the only good spinner he kept to was Doshi. Rest were garbage. Dhoni has kept to better spinners overall- he did a fine job keeping to Kumble, one of the hardest bowlers to keep for apparently, Bhajji, Ojha, Ashwin are all a cut above the spinners Kiri kept to after the first few years of his career. IMO Kiri might've been a better pure keeper but Dhoni has more experience keeping to quality spinners. The fact that Dhoni handled keeping to Kumble the best I've seen since Mongia should count for a lot, as Kumble is usually rated as the hardest bowler to keep to.

[Muloghonto]

I personally dont know what the big fuss was about Kirmani I would rate Engineer who opened highly than him.

In terms of batting, they are apples to oranges. Kirmani was the perfect sticky batsman who would block one end up and frustrate the opposition bowlers from sweeping through the tail. Engineer was a genuine stroke maker, a bit like Dhoni light, who clobbered runs around the park and usually did decently. IIRC, Engineer also played a lot of county cricket and it helped his batting immensely in places like England and New Zealand. As far as keeping goes, nobody from Indian cricket has kept to as many quality spinners as Engineer has- he practically kept through the entire spin quartet era and Chandra was an exceptionally hard guy to keep to (akin to Kumble).

[Crookbond]

In terms of batting, they are apples to oranges. Kirmani was the perfect sticky batsman who would block one end up and frustrate the opposition bowlers from sweeping through the tail. Engineer was a genuine stroke maker, a bit like Dhoni light, who clobbered runs around the park and usually did decently. IIRC, Engineer also played a lot of county cricket and it helped his batting immensely in places like England and New Zealand. As far as keeping goes, nobody from Indian cricket has kept to as many quality spinners as Engineer has- he practically kept through the entire spin quartet era and Chandra was an exceptionally hard guy to keep to (akin to Kumble).

:agree:

4. Kirmani kept to one bowler largely to have sufficient pace for a decent percentage of catches to go to the keeper - Kapil. Dhoni kept to Zaheer, Ishant, Sreesanth, RP Singh, Pathan, Yadav who were all much quicker than Binny, Ghavri, Madan Lal increasing their percentage of dismissals likely to the keeper.

How?

[Number]

Dhoni towers all other Indian wicket- keepers in dismissal per innings and avg. Sometimes its tough to appreciate things in present due to nostalgic or some other sort of (:P) bias.

[vamos_rafa]

Kirmani was in a different league as a keeper than Dhoni - there is simply no comparison. I don't have too much time to do a detailed analysis, but the Indian attacks and circumstances Kirmani kept under were vastly different from Dhoni to make a simple numbers comparison irrelevant. A quick glance on stats guru gives me the following information which nullifies any such comparison: 1. In Kirmani's time fast bowlers bowled around one third of the total overs from India and in Dhoni's time than number is around half. Obviously keepers get more chances keeping to fast bowlers than spinners. 2. The number of innings Kirmani kept in was 151 and Dhoni is at 143. So, the gap is not even close to as wide as suggested by the number of tests they played in. 3. Kirmani played 29 out of 88 tests - 32.x% - in Australia, England, NZ, and WI places where keepers are more likely to get catches. Dhoni played 36.x% in Australia, England, NZ, WI, and SA. 4. Kirmani kept to one bowler largely to have sufficient pace for a decent percentage of catches to go to the keeper - Kapil. Dhoni kept to Zaheer, Ishant, Sreesanth, RP Singh, Pathan, Yadav who were all much quicker than Binny, Ghavri, Madan Lal increasing their percentage of dismissals likely to the keeper. 5. Only 40 out of Kirmani's 88 tests gave results - 45% whereas Dhoni has featured in 66% of matches with results. Clearly there were more wicket taking opportunities for Dhoni.

How do you say that fast bowlers produce more chances than spinners? You yourself have stated that Kirmani played 59 tests in sub continent whilst dhoni has played 40 odd tests. In India, on turning tracks, spinners always produce more wicket taking opporunities,don't they? This can be proven by the way some guys like Rajesh Chauhan or Raju also, seemed unplayable in India. Also, since you are posting vague stats, consider this. Against the spinners, a keeper gets one more mode of dismissal i.e. stumping. And as per Dhoni standing to better pacers, where you have also included Pathan(:hysterical:), I would say, are you actually sure of all the names? I mean, Ishant, bar 3 series at max has always been off colour. RP,Sreesanth, they always have performed decently in a series or 2. And even if they have done well, it's not a given that everything landed in dhoni's laps. The only class fast bowler is Zaheer and I won't compare him to Kapil. Also, I haven't seen Kapil in his pomp as I have not Kirmani and that's why I am not posting on how Kirmanii was. It's just that your arguements seemed to stem from the fact that you don't have a liking for dhoni the keeper and would pick up any random stat to prove your point. As the Op mentioned, aesthetically or technically, Kirmani might have been better but numerically, dhoni is. I would say, I have seen a lot of Mongia and he was one very good keeper specially against Kumble.

[Muloghonto]

How do you say that fast bowlers produce more chances than spinners?

Because fast bowlers generate tons and tons of opportunities for the wicketkeeper and 1st slip by bowling in the corridor of uncertainty and getting batsmen to nick it through. Spinners generate a significant amount of their caught dismissals as bat-pad and not as much for keeper, since if you notice, nobody ever gets out nicking to the keeper while playing a defensive stroke or cover drive to a spinner. Usually,a keeper's catch while keeping to a spinner is a cut shot nicked through. Because how much closer the slip cordon is to the batsman in case of spinners, defensive strokes that get nicked usually gets pouched by 1st slip or 2nd slip. Fast bowlers dont generate more chances per se, but they do generate more chances for the wicketkeeper, which is why the wicketkeepers with higher catches/match figures tend to feature in sides that are fast bowler heavy.

You yourself have stated that Kirmani played 59 tests in sub continent whilst dhoni has played 40 odd tests. In India, on turning tracks, spinners always produce more wicket taking opporunities,don't they? This can be proven by the way some guys like Rajesh Chauhan or Raju also, seemed unplayable in India. Also, since you are posting vague stats, consider this. Against the spinners, a keeper gets one more mode of dismissal i.e. stumping.

On any given day, provided the batsman lasts more than a dozen balls or so, the two most common shots played by the batsman are the forward defensive and the backfoot defensive. Against pacers bowling in the corridor of uncertainty, you stand a significant chance of nicking it through while playing a defensive shot than against spinners, against whom a faulty defensive shot almost always results in a short leg pop-up or bat-pad. wicketkeepers almost exclusively pouch attacking shots aainst the spinners, such as nicking through a cut/late cut or square drive. Batsmen nick it though to the keeper much less often when they are playing a defensive shot against a spinner and as such, if you are a keeper, you are simply speaking, getting more catching chances when your pacers are on than when your spinners are on. This is because the keepers are getting chances generated against pacers from the most common stroke batsmen play (defensive stroke) much more often than against spinners. You are right that keepers get an additional mode of dismissal against spinners ( stumping) but stumping is still rarer than catches, lbws or bowled. infact, IIRC, the ratio of caught/bowled/lbw to stumpings range between 5:1 to 4:1 individually and 10:1 or so collectively. So it doesnt significantly improve the keeper's chances of dismissing a batsman against a spinner compared to a pacer.

And as per Dhoni standing to better pacers, where you have also included Pathan(:hysterical:), I would say, are you actually sure of all the names? I mean, Ishant, bar 3 series at max has always been off colour. RP,Sreesanth, they always have performed decently in a series or 2. And even if they have done well, it's not a given that everything landed in dhoni's laps. The only class fast bowler is Zaheer and I won't compare him to Kapil. Also, I haven't seen Kapil in his pomp as I have not Kirmani and that's why I am not posting on how Kirmanii was. It's just that your arguements seemed to stem from the fact that you don't have a liking for dhoni the keeper and would pick up any random stat to prove your point. As the Op mentioned, aesthetically or technically, Kirmani might have been better but numerically, dhoni is. I would say, I have seen a lot of Mongia and he was one very good keeper specially against Kumble.

1. It may come as some shock to you but taking all Indian pacers between 1970 to 1991, Pathan would rank #3 or #4 against them, Zaheer is a clear cut #2 to kapil. Pathan, Ishant, RP, Sresanth are all better than Ghavri on Ghavri's best day and not much behind Ghavri on his worst day (Ghavri was a consistent bowler but lacked pace and variety and didnt get much bounce or movement either). Its too early to tell for Umesh and Bhuvi but they offer far more than Ghavri ever did. It is indisputable that Dhoni has kept to better pacers than Kirmani or Engineer because Kapil alone was not that much better than Zaheer to compensate for literally nobody else except Ghavri who could pass for a non-spinning bowler of some threat. Btw, as far as keeping to quality pacers go, Mongia has clearly kept to the best bunch of Indian pacers so far. He kept to Kapil early on, then Srinath,Prasad,Kuruvilla(who, IMO, was better than Ishant), along with Zaheer in his early years. 2. Comparing Kapil to Zaheer is a bit like comparing apples to oranges. Kapil was more accurate. Kapil in his youth was faster. But Kapil from late 20s onward was slower than Zaheer. Kapil in his pomp was comparable to Pollock. Healthy but not extreme pace, an excellent outswinger, probably the best in the world and an inswinger that did not move in as much but did move in a bit. Zaheer at his best, is slightly slower than Kapil and with less control. This is wher the comparison ends, because left arm pace bowling and right arm pace bowling are two very different things. Left armers generate an angle that is inherently more difficult but it is far harder for them to bend the ball back in due to the trajectory of the ball. On unhelpful pitches, lbw can be negated against left arm pacers lacking extreme pace because the ball never moves back enough for the batsman to be given out unless you bowl at his pads and hope he misses(which, if this is any decent batsman not going through a slump, will happily pump away for fours all day). But lefties on other hand benefit a whole lot more from the footmarks of rightie bowlers than the righties benefit from footmarks, period. This is because 75% of batsmen are righties and something like that are rightie bowlers too. So lets just say that direct comparisons of bowling features between Kapil and Zaheer cannot go beyond who was faster and who was more consistent, which is very superficial. Kapil, when his knee got wonky, was not much faster than Praveen Kumar is today. ie, military medium, bowling at 120-125kph range. But in his pomp, he was hitting 140-ish pretty consistently. He wasnt recognized as one of the fast ones because he happened to play in an era that saw the biggest glut of extreme pacers, bowlers who would easily average 147-150kph in their whole spells- Marshall, Croft, Roberts, Holding, Patterson,Clarke,Imran,Lillee,Thommo, Garner(when the mood got him), Snow, Akram, etc. were all in the Dale Steyn or faster category, not to mention, some Saffie bowlers of that era of some repute were also super-fast (Garth LeRoux comes to mind). So Kapil got classified into medium-fast, when he actually would've been considered Mitchell Johnson speed (ie, fast) for the first six-seven years of his career. In anycase, I'd say that of the pacers I've seen, Kapil would be #1 and Zaheer a clear #2 for India. Kapil came in a much stronger package with great potential, while when Zaheer came into the team, he pretty much could do only one thing, which is bowl fast yorkers. But whereas Zaheer improved tenfold from his debut days, Kapil's development trailed off in his mid 20s because his knee got wonky and Kapil depended a lot from his big jump to generate pace and outswing. Kapil, if his knee didnt buckle and had been properly managed (ie, rested) could've been Pollock-esque in his numbers. perhaps not an average of 22-23, but more like 24-26. 3. I wouldnt put too much emphasis in the wicket-keeper's keeping numbers if i were you. It means nothing, since keeping numbers are almost entirely dependent on the strength of your pace battery (and supplemented by your spinners). A monkey would've had better keeping numbers keeping to the Aussies of the 90s than Healy himself would've had keeping to the Bangladeshis. The Aussies are generating about 5-6 catching chances per test for the keepers(both innings included) while the Bangladeshis are generating 5-6 chances per test, period! This is an exgaggeration but you get my point i hope. As such, you will find that numbers or no numbers, you will not find a wicket-keeper or a coach who would rate Gillchrsit's keeping better than Healey's , despite Gilly being a great keeper in his own right and with far superior numbers. Keeping is also about holding your chances than how many you held. A keeper who pouches 2 out of 2 chances in a match is a heck of a more valuable keeper than a keeper who pouches 5 of 10. Ask the Pakis for example, there has been matches where Kamran Akmal caught 5 batsmen out but spilled like 6-7 catches in the process. Kirmani on the other hand, was lucky to see 5-6 catching chances per match! So pure numbers in keeping stats mean very little, really.

[rkt.india]

d Comparing Kapil to Zaheer is a bit like comparing apples to oranges. Kapil was more accurate. Kapil in his youth was faster.

Zaheer could bowl 90 mph in his youth. Kapil was not faster than him at any stage of his career. Zak was quick but used to be wayward.

[Muloghonto]

Zaheer could bowl 90 mph in his youth. Kapil was not faster than him at any stage of his career. Zak was quick but used to be wayward.

Did you see Kapil's first few years ? Or is this one of your ridiculous 'watch how close wicketkeeper is standing from video footage' nonsense ?

[The Outsider]

How do you say that fast bowlers produce more chances than spinners? You yourself have stated that Kirmani played 59 tests in sub continent whilst dhoni has played 40 odd tests. In India, on turning tracks, spinners always produce more wicket taking opporunities,don't they? This can be proven by the way some guys like Rajesh Chauhan or Raju also, seemed unplayable in India. Also, since you are posting vague stats, consider this. Against the spinners, a keeper gets one more mode of dismissal i.e. stumping.

Because it's a fact of cricket that fast bowlers produce more chances to wicket keepers than spinners. All you need to do is look at the percentage of dismissals of a typical spinner by a wicket keeper and the percentage of dismissals by a fast bowler to a wicket keeper. For example, Warne has around 15% of his dismissals as caught by the keeper and stumped and Lee has 30%. You can look at any spinner and fast bowler and you will see that pattern in most.

And as per Dhoni standing to better pacers, where you have also included Pathan(:hysterical:), I would say, are you actually sure of all the names? I mean, Ishant, bar 3 series at max has always been off colour. RP,Sreesanth, they always have performed decently in a series or 2. And even if they have done well, it's not a given that everything landed in dhoni's laps.

Not better, but faster. Quicker bowlers are in general going to produce more opportunities to the keeper than slower bowlers. McGrath has a lesser percentage of caught behind victims than Lee, even though McGrath was famous for his off stump corridor line. Pollock has a lesser percentage of caught behind victims than Donald. I've taken them as examples because they bowled together for a significant amount of time, in similar conditions, and with the same keeper.

The only class fast bowler is Zaheer and I won't compare him to Kapil. Also, I haven't seen Kapil in his pomp as I have not Kirmani and that's why I am not posting on how Kirmanii was. It's just that your arguements seemed to stem from the fact that you don't have a liking for dhoni the keeper and would pick up any random stat to prove your point. As the Op mentioned, aesthetically or technically, Kirmani might have been better but numerically, dhoni is. I would say, I have seen a lot of Mongia and he was one very good keeper specially against Kumble.

I was tempted to indulge in ad hominems about your bhakti for Dhoni, but will pass. You work in the cricinfo office - if you think I am speaking out of my posterior pass these comments by S Rajesh to see if my numbers above are accurate with respect to fast bowlers and spinners before you come out and say that they are motivated by my dislike for Dhoni.

[The Outsider]

:agree: How?

Greater pace would mean more likelihood for finer edges to the keeper. Slower pace would mean more catches going to slips and gully or in the case of someone like Madan Lal and Binny in front of the wicket. Check out Lee/McGrath or Donald/Pollock as examples.

[Lord]

Dhoni misses a dolly :beach: