Crookbond Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Well, it's usually gets into a me type debate with you so hopefully please you can avoid it this time Let's be honest, there are plenty of evidence but due to its political significance, that evidence is being labeled as "ongoing" processing. You may want to point out NIA, CBI but none of them have really said that Ishrat was not a terrorist. It's only some politicians who have "cried" and thus taken as counter evidence. As stated earlier, it's purposefully done this way for its political implications. BTW, if you check the case history, IB is the only one who is consistent while many others have simply switched sides at will. There are also other organizations, people have said that the girl was a terrorist. And watching a debate yesterday on TV, it seems like there are already a lot of theories said. Like the girl was kidnapped, girl just took a lift, or the girl simply was working to study people. Really? Why is it exclusive for her only? I don't want a you vs me debate as well but one should avoid drawing a conclusion and then extrapolating data to lead to that conclusion - if you get what I mean. So, let us not not selectively look at facts to suit our position on the case. You are missing one key point here which has been discussed time and again - an extra judicial killing is an extra judicial killing. It doesn't matter WHO it is. The CBI charge sheet clearly mentions that this was a fake encounter by the Gujarat Police and IB. The Metropolitan Magistrate feels so, the SIT feels so and the Gujarat HC also feels so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crookbond Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Why it’s hard to dismiss Ishrat killing as a one-off incident http://www.firstpost.com/india/why-its-hard-to-dismiss-ishrat-killing-as-a-one-off-incident-928081.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FischerTal Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 ^ DM what about the fake encounters that take place in the rest of India? Does democracy and judiciary not exist in these areas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crookbond Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 BIChe - Did I EVER for once say that fake encounters do not take place in other parts of India? :dontknow: Also, did I EVER for once say that those shouldn't be investigated? NO Fake encounters and police custody over reach exists in other states too including UP, Maharashtra etc. I posted an article about it some time back but I guess there were no replies on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FischerTal Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 BIChe - Did I EVER for once say that fake encounters do not take place in other parts of India? :dontknow: Also' date=' did I EVER for once say that those shouldn't be investigated? NO[/quote'] no i didnt mean that. i am just saying, in the article it mentions that such brazen killing is something the Indian right advocate, instead of following the judicial process. I am just asking that since such incidents happen in other states as well, can you attribute it to the ideology of the government in power there too? PS: Don take it personally. i wasnt attacking you, i am just asking on the basis of whats in the article :icflove: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crookbond Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 no i didnt mean that. i am just saying, in the article it mentions that such brazen killing is something the Indian right advocate, instead of following the judicial process. I am just asking that since such incidents happen in other states as well, can you attribute it to the ideology of the government in power there too? PS: Don take it personally. i wasnt attacking you, i am just asking on the basis of whats in the article :icflove: I get BiChe - I didn't take it personally. In this case too, I am not even remotely concerned about "Why the fake encounter took place". If it did, the people who did it should pay for their actions. I honestly do not know if the "state ideology" is responsible - seems a bit far fetched. Btw, this is pan India problem of police functioning like a sock puppet to the state and NOT some ideology issue IMO. Edit - I just posted that Firstpost article to mention that they generally have for/against articles on every topic. I think there is a news item which even supports/opposes Salman Khurshid's stand on US Intel snooping on India's ministers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FischerTal Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 I get BiChe - I didn't take it personally. In this case too, I am not even remotely concerned about "Why the fake encounter took place". If it did, the people who did it should pay for their actions. I honestly do not know if the "state ideology" is responsible - seems a bit far fetched. Btw, this is pan India problem of police functioning like a sock puppet to the state and NOT some ideology issue IMO. thats the real problem. Police reforms in India, but i think you need honest officers on the ground at the local police stations before any reforms can take place. My little experience with Indian police makes me believe that it will be a long time before this happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Outsider Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 If Kodnani can call up the CMO innocently multiple times while distributing weapons and inciting people in the midst of riots, why can't Ishrat travel without being aware of the intentions of the others? :dontknow: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FischerTal Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 If Kodnani can call up the CMO innocently multiple times while distributing weapons and inciting people in the midst of riots' date=' why can't Ishrat travel without being aware of the intentions of the others? :dontknow:[/quote'] calling CMO and travelling side by side with terrorists is the same thing? kuch bhi....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Outsider Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 calling CMO and travelling side by side with terrorists is the same thing? kuch bhi....... Both are circumstantial evidences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raghav_12 Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 If Kodnani can call up the CMO innocently multiple times while distributing weapons and inciting people in the midst of riots' date=' why can't Ishrat travel without being aware of the intentions of the others? :dontknow:[/quote'] what is analogy? You comparing CMO with Ishrat or Kodnani with Ishrat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1983-2011 Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Outsider Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 what is analogy? You comparing CMO with Ishrat or Kodnani with Ishrat? Obviously, CMO with Ishrat because the guilt of Kodnani and at least some of the other passengers has been established beyond reasonable doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1983-2011 Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1983-2011 Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seedhi Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Both are circumstantial evidences.There is a sworn testimony of a man from UP who said that Javed and Ishrat stayed together in a hotel in Lucknow and tried to obtain illegal weapons. The CBI has not even interrogated this person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seedhi Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 I have to say that there is something amiss in the CBI theory of the fake encounter. The CBI claims that Javed and Ishrat were abducted by NK Amin of the Gujarat police on 12 June 2004. Yet, there is from the article in the OP: Hotel staff at the Tulsi Guest House in Bardoli, on National Highway 6 outside of Surat, say Sheikh and Ishrat checked in after 2 am on 12 June 2004. On 14 June, their car developed mechanical trouble. The staff at the Shakti Motor Garage outside Ahmedabad told the police that Sheikh paid Rs 1,025 for repairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zumi Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 so if Gujarat government is being accused of carrying out so called fake encounters. that means every effing state government will be prosecuted now, including the central government. bloody hell the entire gooda raj of Samajwadi Party of UP are in deep sh!t, though won't be a bad idea to hang Muluyam Singh Yadav. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zumi Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 so what about Mahasthra State Government and Police, who were also involved in this encounter of this terrorist woman? and isn't IB a national organisation, so wtf is "state IB"? why only target just Gujarat government, Gujarat Police, "Gujarat" IB? Congress and it's lackey CBI are fecking up every minute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sachin=GOD Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 Premeditated Murder There was never any doubt that Ishrat Jahan, her friend Javed Shaikh, and two others, all alleged players in a 2004 plot to kill Narendra Modi, were murdered in cold blood. The Gujarat government’s account of why and how the four were liquidated — referred to in police jargon as ‘encountered’ — was too full of inconsistencies to hold up to scrutiny. But the details that have unfolded in the Central Bureau of Investigation’s primary charge sheet against seven Gujarat policemen — among them senior Indian Police Service officers D.G. Vanzara and P.P. Pandey — are too horrific even by India’s notorious policing methods. What is worse, the charge sheet names the Gujarat police and State intelligence officers as collaborators in the operation, with the latter said to have been in on the kidnapping of the victims and to have supplied the weapons that were recovered from their bodies. The charge sheet discloses that Ishrat and Javed Shaikh were abducted from Valsad in Anand on June 12, 2004 and held captive for three days at various interrogation hideouts in Ahmedabad and Gandhinagar before being drugged, blindfolded and driven to an isolated spot where they were shot dead along with their alleged co-conspirators from Pakistan, Zeeshan Johar and Amjad Ali Rana. Incredibly, the charge sheet says that the FIR relating to the ‘encounter’ was drafted before the event. A crucial point that has emerged is that Johar and Rana were themselves not together and had been taken into custody one month apart, in April and May 2004. In other words, the would-be assassins hatched their plot to kill Mr. Modi even as they were under custody of the Gujarat police in different locations. While this fact by itself is hard to square with the widely circulated theory that Ishrat was a trained suicide bomber associated with the Lashkar-e-Taiba, the charge sheet has avoided going into this area for now. Another contentious question concerned the role played by Rajinder Kumar, the IB’s Special Director posted in Gujarat at the time. Mr. Kumar has not been formally charge sheeted but his name figures among those who the CBI says planned the killings. A supplementary charge sheet will likely elaborate on the conspiracy, and who participated in it. Though the aim of this murderous plot was evidently to generate a fear psychosis in the State and burnish the credentials of the Gujarat Chief Minister, there is nothing as yet in the public domain to justify holding Mr. Modi directly responsible. However, the fact that officers holding some of the highest posts in his administration could plan and execute these custodial killings indubitably tarnishes his political credentials. http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/editorial/premeditated-murder/article4881800.ece?homepage=true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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