Ishrat Jahan: The inconvenient story no one wants to tell

[bulbul]

Well left outside off stump. Would you answer my question? Lets say (for completely hypothetical reasons) it was your wife' date=' sister etc. She chose some wrong company (she was not a terrorist) but she got killed in an encounter and it was wrong. Would you make the same statement? Three nut jobs died - good for the country and my wife/sister etc. was collateral damage.[/quote'] There are better way to argue than bringing posters family as a example :headshake:. No need to take this as a debate competition :two_thumbs_up:

[Crookbond]

There are better way to argue than bringing posters family as a example :headshake:. No need to take this as a debate competition :two_thumbs_up:

So please explain how "3 nut jobs killed" but 1 innocent is "collateral damage" is a decent argument which doesn't require such a retort. It's also quite obvious that I am not wishing ill health for the poster or his family members. Perhaps an alternate view of the situation may help the poster being a little more sensitive before terming an extra judicial encounter as "collateral damage". I hope you also take your moral stand there and request the person to be sensitive towards others. No point in selective 'lecturing'. :two_thumbs_up:

[bulbul]

So please explain how "3 nut jobs killed" but 1 innocent is "collateral damage" is a decent argument which doesn't require such a retort. It's also quite obvious that I am not wishing ill health for the poster or his family members. Perhaps an alternate view of the situation may help the poster being a little more sensitive before terming an extra judicial encounter as "collateral damage". I hope you also take your moral stand there and request the person to be sensitive towards others. No point in selective 'lecturing'. :two_thumbs_up:

As for as I know he didn't mentioned any posters family , I am not talking about moral nonsense here. Just saying,just for the sake of argument we no need to bring sister, mothers into picture. No idea why you took it personal :dontknow:

[zumi]

Well left outside off stump. Would you answer my question? Lets say (for completely hypothetical reasons) it was your wife' date=' sister etc. She chose some wrong company (she was not a terrorist) but she got killed in an encounter and it was wrong. Would you make the same statement? Three nut jobs died - good for the country and my wife/sister etc. was collateral damage.[/quote'] how can I complain about it, (besides moaning publicly about officials lack of insensitivity and murdering my kid), if my kid is hanging out with nutcases be it terrorists, drug dealers/users, goondas etc. i would feel sad and angry, but what defence would one have if your kid, wife/sister are hanging out with bad company

[Crookbond]

As for as I know he didn't mentioned any posters family , I am not talking about moral nonsense here. Just saying,just for the sake of argument we no need to bring sister, mothers into picture. No idea why you took it personal :dontknow:

And how does it matter? According to the poster's yardstick, a person if innocent killed as collateral damage in a terrorist encounter is "fine". I wanted to know if the poster had the same yardstick for his own (I avoided mentioning any relation). He didn't understand so then I explicitly made up a hypothetical argument about some blood relations. I just wanted to understand if his stand changes if the collateral damage is one of his family member versus one that is not. I don't think there is anything insensitive in it. If you feel so, I would ask you to report my posts to the mods.

[Crookbond]

how can I complain about it, (besides moaning publicly about officials lack of insensitivity and murdering my kid), if my kid is hanging out with nutcases be it terrorists, drug dealers/users, goondas etc. i would feel sad and angry, but what defence would one have if your kid, wife/sister are hanging out with bad company

OK - Fair enough! :icflove:

[bulbul]

And how does it matter? According to the poster's yardstick, a person if innocent killed as collateral damage in a terrorist encounter is "fine". I wanted to know if the poster had the same yardstick for his own (I avoided mentioning any relation). He didn't understand so then I explicitly made up a hypothetical argument about some blood relations. I just wanted to understand if his stand changes if the collateral damage is one of his family member versus one that is not. I don't think there is anything insensitive in it. If you feel so, I would ask you to report my posts to the mods.

I guess you got your answer , did that change any of your opinions?

[asterix]

So basically when Juswant Singh saved hijacked Indian passengers of IA from Kandahar, he actually did a good job. Why he gets ridiculed by Congress that he escorted Terrorists out of the country? Also how many other fake encounters CBI is investigating? If not, why?

[bulbul]

So basically when Justwant Singh saved hijacked Indian passengers of IA from Kandahar, he actually did a good job. Why he gets ridiculed by Congress that he escorted Terrorists out of the country? Also how many other fake encounters CBI is investigating? If not, why?

You have to talk only about the thread subject , rest of the cases doesn't matter.

[Raghav_12]

Yeah' date=' so do it. What is this Deewar style dialoguebaazi of jaao pehle us aadmi ka sign le kar aao jisne mere haath par he like diya tha. I am perfectly content with whatever little justice we are getting instead of saying I won't take it till we get the perfect justice for everyone.[/quote'] so why this little justice has to start from Modi all the time? Riots happened in India all the time but Modi should be fixed first. Encounters happened all over India, but the ones under Modi should be investigated first for little justice. At one point it starts seeming like *****-hunt. On the topic, I really want this case to be probed in all fairness and if Ishrat is innocent, all guilty should be brought to justice. Police should not be allowed to go around and kill people for kicks.I had made a post few months back on this case when it was not so much in media as it is right now. I was categorical in my post that innocents have been killed and anybody who is responsible should be punished. http://indiancricketfans.com/showthread.php?t=274639&highlight=ishrat But since then so many things came in media and I got to read, it almost became impossible to believe that Ishrat was absolutely innocent. And if she was involved with terrorists in any way, then I would rather focus country's resources in incidents where chances of victims being innocents are rather high. And this I am saying when I am not a Modi supporter.

[The Outsider]

So basically when Juswant Singh saved hijacked Indian passengers of IA from Kandahar, he actually did a good job. Why he gets ridiculed by Congress that he escorted Terrorists out of the country? Also how many other fake encounters CBI is investigating? If not, why?

Jaswant Singh escorted bonafide terrorists to their nesting ground, from where organizations like Jaish-e-Mohammad were born and were responsible for many more deaths than were supposedly saved, not to mention the attack on the Parliament.

[zumi]

OK - Fair enough! :icflove:

these terrorists are vermins, and often intermingle with innocents, unfortunately indian security forces do not have hi-tech surveillance and technology to sieve through potential innocents, even the better equipped nations have made mistakes often incurring collateral damage. And for this particular case, the woman was hanging out with two fecking paki terrorists and a home grown nutcase!!! there is no effing way this woman was some random hitch hiker

[asterix]

Jaswant Singh escorted bonafide terrorists to their nesting ground' date=' from where organizations like Jaish-e-Mohammad were born and were responsible for many more deaths than were supposedly saved, not to mention the attack on the Parliament.[/quote'] Yeah but what options he had? Let all the innocent passengers die one by one? What if then CBI starts investigating him for getting innocent passengers killed, when the next Congress govt. came?

[zumi]

And how does it matter? According to the poster's yardstick, a person if innocent killed as collateral damage in a terrorist encounter is "fine". I wanted to know if the poster had the same yardstick for his own (I avoided mentioning any relation). He didn't understand so then I explicitly made up a hypothetical argument about some blood relations. I just wanted to understand if his stand changes if the collateral damage is one of his family member versus one that is not. I don't think there is anything insensitive in it. If you feel so, I would ask you to report my posts to the mods.

also no parent or husband would claim their own guilty it's human, let's look at the recent boston bombing, where the bombers' mother never chided her sons and defended their innocence to the end. the question is whether the wider society are ready to accept limited collateral damage during these cases (e.g. encounter cases, be it terrorists, gangsters, drug barons)? I believe in India people are willing to accept limited collateral damage as long as these vermins are eradicated for the sake of peace and secuity. The US does, the UK does, Brazil does,

[The Outsider]

Yeah but what options he had? Let all the innocent passengers die one by one? What if then CBI starts investigating him for getting innocent passengers killed' date=' when the next Congress govt. came?[/quote'] The option was simple and harsh, no negotiations with terrorists. It was on a similar ground I voted for them but when it came down to actions they were as big as hijdaas you can find.

[CSK Fan]

Yeah but what options he had? Let all the innocent passengers die one by one? What if then CBI starts investigating him for getting innocent passengers killed' date=' when the next Congress govt. came?[/quote'] Actually many countries like Russia and US have done exactly that, no negotiating with the terrorist. We have to admit, India is one of the softest nations ever, no matter who is in power BTW, there are some well known incidents about Russia (of course not expecting India to do this in their dreams). Once an upcoming terrorist organization in Russia decided to kidnap important Russian businessmen and political figures to raise ransom for their activities. So they kidnapped a rich business with links to Putin. They cut off one of his fingers, sent it to his relatives and asked for millions. What did KGB do? They tracked down info about the group within a day, found everything about them and then sent a parcel to the group as a reply. What did the parcel contain? The head of the terrorist group's leader's elder brother. The terrorists immediately realized they were out of their depths and released the hostage without further harm.

[seedhi]

Yeah but what options he had? Let all the innocent passengers die one by one? What if then CBI starts investigating him for getting innocent passengers killed' date=' when the [b']next Congress govt. came?

During the Kandahar hostage crisis the senior members of the Congress shamelessly sat on dharna along with the relatives of the hostages in Delhi demanding the release of the terrorists. And today they criticize Vajpayee govt for it. And I dont understand the special criticism of Jaswant Singh - he did not go there to escort the terrorists but rather to bring back the hostages safely. Even if you dont agree with the decision to release the terrorists, clearly Jaswant Singh put his own life in danger. The Taliban could have held or killed him irrespective of what they did to the hostages. It really boggles the mind that he is ridiculed for going to Kandahar and putting his life on the line. At least in that act he lived up to his army background. As far as the morality of releasing terrorists - at least there is the example of Israel which has in the past released dozens of terrorists for one kidnapped Israeli or sometimes even the body of an Israeli, but it backs its agencies to recapture the terrorists. No one can say that Israel does not value the lives of its people. So there is no straightforward answer for this, but yes if the govt has a declared policy of no negotiations with terrorists it should stick to it. Kandahar was not the first time the Indian govt had a prisoner exchange. The VP Singh govt exchanged Kashmiri militants for Mufti Sayeed's daughter in 1989 also.

[someone]

Case filed against NaMo for alleged fake encounter Following the failure of making fake terrorist encounter as trap for Narendra Modi (NaMo), Human Rights groups has decided to go international. This time, they have turned their attention to the slain ‘alleged terrorist’ Sama Bin Laden. “Sama Bin Laden, who was the founding father of the All Khazhuthey (along with some twenty other children), had contributed a lot to the world by reducing the population. By using planes and bombs, he had effectively reduced the human population, which was even more effective than the family planning done for bachelors by Sanju. He was the symbol of peace, as he had made many people rest in peace. We are filing this case against NaMo who had been instrumental in mercilessly killing the epitome of peace and non-non-violence,” said a member who had filed the case on behalf of the group. When our reporter asked her what is the link between NaMo and killing of Sama, she got angry and responded sharply, “How dare you question us? Don’t you know that supporting Modi can make you an Internet Hindu and be branded as communal forever? Can I inform to concerned authorities that you are not allowing us to hate Modi?” Our reporter, who got frightened, escaped from the spot. He tried to contact another member of the Human Rights group, who responded in a furious tone, “You want to know the connection? Well, here it is. Sama was killed by US Navy seals. US congress members visited Modi. Don’t you see the connection? Don’t you see the conspiracy? Leave that, remember Bhuj earthquake. It was done by NaMo as part of his minority cleansing pogrom. We will never allow a person who speaks a lot and that too takes his own decision to lead India.” Rajdupe, who welcomed this move, wrote about how cruel Modi is and how his PR machinery is well oiled by Castrol. He stressed the fact that he was supportive of dreams of Sama by helping the Kebab and his brave fighters. He highlighted the points that his crew helped them spot the people stuck in Raj hotel, so that their souls are liberated. In that article, he compared how NaMo does not appear in videos, while Sama gives full non-interrupted video interviews and is so supportive of media. Rajdupe ended that article saying that Gujarat riots were more worst than what happened in Bangladesh in 1971. Kullah Domar, the current head of Al Khazhuthey, said in recent interview to the online newspaper Jagajal Jeera, “We are planning to assassinate political leaders all around the world. In case, our plan gets leaked to intelligence and if we were encountered beforehand, there are idiots who will say that our encounter is fake and will argue for us. They will even go to the extent of putting cases against those political leaders as though being a target is their mistake. As long as retards like them exist, we can happily go around bombing cities and beheading people.” Newspapers were competing with each other to bring this news to their front page. Bad Times gave headlines as ‘Innocent Sama, Violent Bama, Silent NaMo’ with lines that ran as ‘On that fateful night of 2 May, Sama was peacefully sleeping with his wives. And then there were gun shots. How did two women end up with Sama? What was the Navy seals doing in bedroom of an innocent person? NaMo surely needs to answer all these questions.’ Meanwhile Santhuley said, “Did you see the name Sama? It is one of Vedas. This proves that Sama Bin Laden is saffron terrorist.”

A fun (article) nevertheless and hopefully erases some tension here. And the bold part describes ganeshran completely-- Me, me, me and for connecting wild and irreverent things

[someone]

Back again on this issue, the first issue in this case in not if it was a fake encounter. But is Ishrat a terrorist or an innocent person? A lot of dirty politics has been played over this and many emotions, cries were expressed. If it is a terrorist especially given all those new information, certainly this precedent is extremely dangerous? A lot of things happen in Gujarat, you are not gonna name Modi for all. Did Pathan play good/bad because of Modi? ( btw, I have heard a real comment like this on live TV once, very ridiculous indeed)

[The Outsider]

Back again on this issue, the first issue in this case in not if it was a fake encounter. But is Ishrat a terrorist or an innocent person?

Sure, if you are a supporter of fascism which is Modi's brand of politics. For others, the it's equally important whether the state machinery was used to carry out extra judicial killings and whether the chief minister was aware of them or involved in them. The two issues are not linked and extra judicial killings are a cornerstone of every fascist regime in history. Today they might be used against terrorists (even assuming Ishrat was one), tomorrow they will be used against political opponents, and then against the common man.