T420 Champions: India

[Gambit]

On the cricketing skill matchup, I called this a 0-5, while the scoreline may read 1-3... anything drastic about this ? why, so many people are saying that exactly is what it should have been, I am not alone

Oh yeah? Like who? You know why you are invoking so much ire? It's because you are completely disregarding our win just because of a few umpiring errors. You are almost making it sound as if it is our players' fault that the umpires screwed up. Ok, let's see if you are consistent. In your book, did we win the series in Aus 2-1? (2003-04 tour)

[Guest HariSampath]

I don't quite understand this view at all. These players are professionals doing a job' date=' if they are not giving their 100% and not performing they will be thrown out by their pay masters ie. BCCI. They have no responsibility towards you or anyone else but the BCCI to give 100% or 200%. We have no rights to demand anything from them just as they don't have any rights to demand a 100% performance from us in our jobs. We like the sport, we watch it, we have fun. If our team does well, we feel happy, if they suck we are disappointed. End of story.[/quote'] I disagree. I think that players do have a responsibility to fans and BCCI has a responsibility to fans too, because the real paymasters are the fans eventually. I hate the idea if I am in a stadium after having paid a couple of hundred thousand dollars to see a cricket match, and when six is required of the last ball and along with millions of fans I am yelling myself hoarse cheering my team, and that player is all the time seeing where he can take a single, with no plan of even trying. That in my book is making me a fool and and mocking millions of fans. And if I confront that player in the local bar after the game, and he tells me " look you don't pay me, so get the hell out, and talk to the BCCI who send me that check", I will bloody well flatten his nose and happily pay another $ 1000 in a local court or spend a night in jail. And if I ask the BCCI and they tell me "we didn't promise you anything for the game, you take a risk with your money, and that player is a valuable member who has won other games , so we don't want to do anything, get the hell out" , I flatten yet another nose for yet another night in jail. Look, in any case, if it is a question of fans just being disappointed and having to switch off Tv and go, why get offended when someone like me, soundly curse this team for not trying seriously enough. If your logic is that "just walk away if the team sucks", then why get offended if a fan feels fooled by the players and is saying so.

[The Outsider]

Look, in any case, if it is a question of fans just being disappointed and having to switch off Tv and go, why get offended when someone like me, soundly curse this team for not trying seriously enough. If your logic is that "just walk away if the team sucks", then why get offended if a fan feels fooled by the players and is saying so.

Did I say I am offended? Where? If I did then I retract, I'm not offended just surprised as to how a game can rile up so many destructive emotions in a person. You have all the rights to those emotions but passing character judgements on people who don't side or agree with your emotions and confront you on them is strange to say the least.

[Aditi]

Cuss the team and players all you want, but don't talk like you represent all of us. That is what is irritating everyone.

[Guest HariSampath]

Oh yeah? Like who? You know why you are invoking so much ire? It's because you are completely disregarding our win just because of a few umpiring errors. You are almost making it sound as if it is our players' fault that the umpires screwed up. Ok, let's see if you are consistent. In your book, did we win the series in Aus 2-1? (2003-04 tour)

See my posts in the "celebrating win" thread, I had consistently pointed out the following points. 1. Its good that we won, lets celebrate, but lets not forget that this win was largely helped by 3 vital decisions sachin got, and let us not forget that Ricky Ponting was given out. 2. From the point of view of analysing even wins, lets not forget that in all the ODIs in this series so far, we have been losing the new ball battle, this is a key lesson for us to take forward and this game's 90 run start should not cloud our vision because in a cricketing sense we lost the new ball battle again today for the 4th time in the series. And guess what happened, I was proved EXACTLY right, we lost the game yesterday humiliatingly, purely because our famous top order was skittled out. This is what I had meant, we need to sit back even if we win and realistically and honestly analyse what went on in games, win or lose. And when these things are never done, changes in teams/players/strategy nothing happens.... and then we keep losing in the same manner, whats wrong in saying " this team , players administrators etc are all taking us to be a buncha fools, and if we continue to call them champs of T20 heroes etcetc, they will never ever change, and we are just fooling ourselvs if we believe these fellos try 100%, cos they are not. Seems like theyhave other things on their minds" Is this so offensive ? Am I the only one who thinks this way ?

[Guest HariSampath]

Did I say I am offended? Where? If I did then I retract' date=' I'm not offended just surprised as to how a game can rile up so many destructive emotions in a person. You have all the rights to those emotions but passing character judgements on people who don't side or agree with your emotions and confront you on them is strange to say the least.[/quote'] I didn't say "you" specifically alone. I was addressing the general tenor of those who find that they are offended by me saying in essence " this team is a buncha losers who don't try sincerely, they are taking all fans for a ride, and they are making fools of fans, and we in turn trust them unconditionally, we are in fact fools".... is this in your opinion, "over the top reaction" ?

[The Outsider]

1. Its good that we won, lets celebrate, but lets not forget that this win was largely helped by 3 vital decisions sachin got, and let us not forget that Ricky Ponting was given out.

You are new to the site, so I'll just wait and observe how you react when India is at the wrong end of umpiring decisions, but if you are saying Ponting was not out, then you don't know your cricket.

[Gambit]

See my posts in the "celebrating win" thread, I had consistently pointed out the following points. 1. Its good that we won, lets celebrate, but lets not forget that this win was largely helped by 3 vital decisions sachin got, and let us not forget that Ricky Ponting was given out. 2. From the point of view of analysing even wins, lets not forget that in all the ODIs in this series so far, we have been losing the new ball battle, this is a key lesson for us to take forward and this game's 90 run start should not cloud our vision because in a cricketing sense we lost the new ball battle again today for the 4th time in the series. And guess what happened, I was proved EXACTLY right, we lost the game yesterday humiliatingly, purely because our famous top order was skittled out. This is what I had meant, we need to sit back even if we win and realistically and honestly analyse what went on in games, win or lose. And when these things are never done, changes in teams/players/strategy nothing happens.... and then we keep losing in the same manner, whats wrong in saying " this team , players administrators etc are all taking us to be a buncha fools, and if we continue to call them champs of T20 heroes etcetc, they will never ever change, and we are just fooling ourselvs if we believe these fellos try 100%, cos they are not. Seems like theyhave other things on their minds" Is this so offensive ? Am I the only one who thinks this way ?

Just answer my question. In your books, did we win the series down under 2-1 (2003-04)?

[The Outsider]

I didn't say "you" specifically alone. I was addressing the general tenor of those who find that they are offended by me saying in essence " this team is a buncha losers who don't try sincerely' date=' they are taking all fans for a ride, and they are making fools of fans, and we in turn trust them unconditionally, we are in fact fools".... is this in your opinion, "over the top reaction" ?[/quote'] Yeah, it's an over the top reaction. We are a mediocre ODI team, have been for years and are playing the best ODI team ever to play the game of cricket. There are bound to be days when we get absolutely thrashed by their brilliance. It's natural and happens in every sport when two mismatched sides compete. From those facts, to draw the conclusion that there is a deliberate effort by the players not to try hard and make a fool of the fans is definitely an over the top reaction in my books. But, hey you are entitled to it if you are willing to go to jail over a cricket match.

[Guest HariSampath]

Cuss the team and players all you want' date=' but don't talk like you represent all of us. That is what is irritating everyone.[/quote'] Thats what I am doing, I am cussing the players and teams, and I am not saying I represent ALL fans. I represent those who feel like me, cheated and fooled not just by results but because of the way we lose and so many things going on behind the scenes in the setup of this team . And as you know, there is a very significant percentage of Indian fans who feel as I do, and it is our right to express our views, just as it is your right to say " don't include me in that group". And it is my personal view that a vast silent majority of the 1 billion fans do feel this way, and they are just quiet on the subject while I am saying " the emperor is wearing no clothes".... the implication being that all those who think the emperor is indeed wearing divinely beautiful clothes, but it is just that they cannot see it.... well then, I will again say such thinking is foolish in my opinion.

[head coach]

My personal opinion is every player wishes to give his 100% whenever he walks out but in given situation he loses his concentration or a super delivery sneaks through his defense. Then you wonder a person with this much skill and experience, how can it happen? Well it doesn't happen that often to players in Australia team even though they are not as skilled as Indian players one thing to note here is the never die attitude and perseverance to defeat all odds. This kind of an attitude drives success to Aussies. We need players of this caliber to invite success. Indian fan dedication is the main reason for BCCI's financial success that makes these cash rich cricketers but sadly that is not reciprocated the same way by these rich folks when they play!

[Guest HariSampath]

Yeah' date=' it's an over the top reaction. We are a mediocre ODI team, have been for years and are playing the best ODI team ever to play the game of cricket. There are bound to be days when we get absolutely thrashed by their brilliance. It's natural and happens in every sport when two mismatched sides compete. From those facts, to draw the conclusion that there is a deliberate effort by the players not to try hard and make a fool of the fans is definitely an over the top reaction in my books. But, hey you are entitled to it if you are willing to go to jail over a cricket match.[/quote'] I was simply asking you what you would feel in that hypothetical last ball situation, and you haven't answered. That situation is just for me and others to understand how fans are expected to feel if that sort of thing happens. But for some reason you are not choosing to answer

[Gambit]

And it is my personal view that a vast silent majority of the 1 billion fans do feel this way, and they are just quiet on the subject while I am saying " the emperor is wearing no clothes".... the implication being that all those who think the emperor is indeed wearing divinely beautiful clothes, but it is just that they cannot see it.... well then, I will again say such thinking is foolish in my opinion.

Pretty presumptuous and arrogant of you to call the vast majority of fans foolish. Not everyone like you wants to punch a player and happily go to jail if they failed in a game.

[The Outsider]

I was simply asking you what you would feel in that hypothetical last ball situation, and you haven't answered. That situation is just for me and others to understand how fans are expected to feel if that sort of thing happens. But for some reason you are not choosing to answer

I haven't answered? Perhaps you missed it. I'll just quote the answer again :

Quote What about the times when players make a mockery of the fans..... say for example if in a ODI, some batsman is batting on 99 and needs to get a single to complete a Ton, but the team requires 6 off the last ball to win, and if the player just pushes the ball for a run to get a 100, and doesn't even attempt to hit a six off the last ball, saying trying for a six was impossible anyway, would you accept that ? I would be disappointed and frustrated. Quote And please answer honestly what you would expect the BCCI and the selectors to do, as fans ? I would expect the BCCI and the selectors to drop the player because he was obviously not doing his job well ie. playing for the team. But I would not say that I have the "right" to have him dropped. I have no "right" on any player. Quote PS : how would you fel if you had spent a few thousand dollars flying to toronto or Wndies, and spent a few $ 100 s more to get tks in the belief that your team is playing to give honest value for your faith as a fan I would be disappointed as a fan for not being able to watch my team put up a good show, but again display no "right" on the team. If I feel, it's part of an ongoing trend, I would cut down or stop following the fortunes of the side and look at other pastimes which would give me more enjoyment.

[Guest HariSampath]

You are new to the site' date=' so I'll just wait and observe how you react when India is at the wrong end of umpiring decisions, but if you are saying Ponting was not out, then you don't know your cricket.[/quote'] I may be new to the site, but I am not exactly new to cricket, I may possibly have watched several years of international cricket more than you, and as to the question of Ponting's decision, he was on the line with his foot on the inner half. The rule on line decisions is " the line is the umpires" and if he had decided to go upstairs , which he did, unless the foot can be clearly shown outside or not in contact with the line/ground, then it is classified as doubtful and benefir of doubt has to go to batsman , and in any case Ponting's foot was touching the line ( see video). I would react exactly the same way if India got 3 bad decisions and say LOST the game by 10 runs in an ODI. I would be saying " on the cricket skill matchup we were the real winners, so lets analyse the game for pluses and minuses and move forward with the moral victory" And as to you saying. I don't know my cricket, you are free yo have your opinion, I never said you don't know cricket. I am sure there are others who think I know my cricket too.

[The Outsider]

he was on the line with his foot on the inner half. The rule on line decisions is " the line is the umpires" and if he had decided to go upstairs , which he did, unless the foot can be clearly shown outside or not in contact with the line/ground, then it is classified as doubtful and benefir of doubt has to go to batsman , and in any case Ponting's foot was touching the line ( see video)

Some part of the foot/bat has to be behind the line for it to be not out. I'll quote :

If the striker steps in front of the crease to play the ball, leaving no part of his anatomy or the bat on the ground behind the crease, and the wicket-keeper is able to remove the bails from the wicket with the ball, then the striker is out.

[Guest HariSampath]

I am sorry, I had missed your answer: [i would be disappointed and frustrated.

[Guest HariSampath]

Some part of the foot/bat has to be behind the line for it to be not out. I'll quote :

I had said "he was on the line with his foot on the inner half." The Tv replays showed that Ponting's foot was on the inner half of the line and he could not be given out. Thats what commentators have said in so many line decisions before this one too, and rightly so. I had sen so many line decisions exactly like this given to the batsman. The riule of the thumb being that if after referral too, there is an element of doubt , it goes to the batsman But leave it at that. Hrdly reason to say I don't know my cricket, You still haven't countered anything I said about the cricketing skill match. So what if Ponting's decision may appear fair to you. The fact you haven't countered in any cricketing way my point that we lost all 4 new ball battles and so we should have taken a hard look at ourselves is the essence of my argument that day, and the fact this did not occur and we were steamrolled by the new ball again for the 5th time. You haven't refuted my logic yet.

[The Outsider]

and obviously by extension, you may feel fooled that this player was taking fans to be fools to cheer and support when he had no idea of even attempting to win ( this is my general interpretation, you can disagree with me if you think you wouldn't have felt being fooled.

There is no extension to it. I would be disappointed and frustrated and would hope and expect that the BCCI drops him for his performance. That's it.

This is certainly being fooled, and if the BCCI too doesn't bother to drop him, its okay with you I guess.

Okay with me? Who am I to take those decisions? The guy is on BCCI's payroll and if they decide to keep an unfaithful performer it's their decision. I will probably get disillusioned with the whole thing and reduce my following of the team, just as I don't try to buy anything from Walmart, avoid drinking Coke/Pepsi, or wear Nikes. They are offering a product and it's my decision whether I choose to take it or not. Nobody is forcing it down my throat if I don't enjoy it.

btw, I don't think a lot of people agree with you in saying that "players are not accountable to fans, just to BCCI, because BCCI is the one who writes the check, just walk away if you don't like it etc", because this type of fan who thinks this way may not be on a fans discussion forum if they didn;t pasionately love cricket.

That's fine and I am not forcing anyone to tow my line of thought. If there is a certain section of followers who feel the cricketers are accountable to the fans that's fine, I don't think they are. My view is that they are professionals doing a job and I'll follow them to the extent I find it enjoyable.

if you believe that , its not me who doesn't know cricket. you may not know what it is to be a fan of the game.

Maybe, my statement that you don't know your cricket was an uncalled for generalization but you certainly did not know the rule pertaining to stumping/line decisions. As for the fan part, I couldn't care less if people perceive me as one or not.

[Guest HariSampath]

Gambit....and anyone else who has been accusing me of "not appreciating our win"..please see what I had said on that game thread after the game.

In this Aussie team, no, I don't know if anyone other than Gilly is a confirmed walker, if that was the Q. With ref to top sides always analysing games, hey that happens all the time. For example, if Aus had been exactly in our shoes today and benefited from such decisions to win, of course punter would be saying in the team meeting" all right mates.. we won this one, but no need to gloat, we sucked bigtime and Taufel did them in so we won, so better move your as**es and take a reality check cos if we play like this tomorrow don't count on Taufel to pull us thru again, I wanna see serious kickas cricket and we pound them without the umpirs and not squeak thru becos of the umpire" ALL top sides discuss only this way, and thats why they are top

This is what I wanted our boys to be doing