India as a sporting nation

[coffee_rules]

With all due respect ' date=' are you suggesting that the West Indies fast bowlers were encouraged by their Government/Sports Authorities. On the Contrary , they served as hindrance according to the late great Marshall. How do explain a poor country like Windies with miniscule population produce so many fast bowlers in the eighties , a feet unmatched by a nation of billion ? Ignore the racial aspect at your own peril, I say.[/quote'] Windies had a great cricketing culture till the 1980s. They still have a sporting culture (people taking up sport as a profession). They are now in Basketball (NBA) and Soccer. T&T, Jamaica even played in the Soccer world cup. I think India is seeing Cricket as a sport/profession now in the 90s as never before. May be fify years from now, it will all be different. Atleast there is hope for the future generation.

[Lurker]

In countries like Cameroon, Nigeria, Kenya - the poor see an economic reward in excellence in sports and that's what they see as their path towards freedom from poverty. The Kenyan marathon runners are usually poor and are encouraged by the Govt authorities. Even in India, some of the athletes are poor and are encouraged by the local authorities. Remember an archer () in the 80s, was actually from one of the STs / Adivasis.

You started well there but then lost yourself in excuses CA sorry. If people trying to come out of poverty was the inspiration for them in Africa I daresay we have enough poor in our own backyard that should be getting us Olympic medals. The archer you mentioned - Limba Ram and Shyam Lal Mina - were two excellent prospects picked from the STs of Rajasthan, given proper training by SAI(Sports Authority of India) and promptly flopped at International level. I feel bad to say flopped because they were two simpletons, really were, but they flopped and thats that. Contrary to all these notion that we lack Infrastructure I say we lack that enthusiam to prove people wrong. Half of the Indian hockey team today is comprised of poor Adivasis from Bihar/Jharkhand/Orrissa area. Most of these have come up due to SAI hockey school in the area. A Ranchi guy should tell you more about them. Yes I am not gonna argue that the facilities at SAI Ranchi is hardly gonna be as good as Australian Hockey Academy Sydney but then again it is the same for African runners too. Do you expect them to have a Santa Monica Athletic department facility? But they triumph and we do not. Why? My question about the rich NRI remains answered btw. xxx

[coffee_rules]

My question about the rich NRI remains answered btw. xxx

NRIs started emigrating from 70s in large numbers from India. Most first gens still can't get India out of them. Look at how many of us still loiter around ICF talking about cricket (which we suck so much). Now, may be the second gens and third gens can change this attitude and we can see so many NRI sec/third gens taking up sports at a higher level. It has already happened in the caribbean, where Indians have lived there for centuries. You can see how many Indian-origin players in the WI now.

[gs]

I partly agree with your post. Hate to indulge in racial pigeon holing ' date=' but don't you think we should accept the fact that their is a possibility that race may be a factor also when compared with Africans , Germans , Russians etc. Our skills are more in the academic line wherein we excel compared to lot of other nations.[/quote'] I agree with you on that. An average Indian is physically much weaker than a Black or a Caucasian, but is comparable (or maybe in certain cases stronger) than an average Chinese. Then how does China bag so many medals in Olympics?!? I think the lack of intent/motivation does more damage than race/genetic shortcomings! If we were under a whip like the Chinese are, we would have seen more world class sportsmen. Hypothetically speaking, can imagine a lazy Munaf or Ganguly in a Chinese cricket team?

[Predator_05]

Now let me ask you - How many Indian kids you know are any good at any Sports in USA? Other than possibly Mohini Bhardwaj which other name comes to mind?

Raj Bhavsar is one of the best gymnasts ever produced by the United States http://www.usa-gymnastics.org/athletes/bios/men/rbhavsar.html

[Lurker]

NRIs started emigrating from 70s in large numbers from India. Most first gens still can't get India out of them. Look at how many of us still loiter around ICF talking about cricket (which we suck so much). Now' date=' may be the second gens and third gens can change this attitude and we can see so many NRI sec/third gens taking up sports at a higher level. It has already happened in the caribbean, where Indians have lived there for centuries. You can see how many Indian-origin players in the WI now.[/quote'] But if the issue is lack of infrastructure surely it should not matter how long a person have lived there? I say your example of Carribean actually proves my point. That is after centuries there was a kind of mental evolution if you will that changed the way people of Indian origin looked at sports, in USA they still have NOT overcome that thought process, even though they are surrounded by the very best in sports infrastructure. Same is the case in England really. xxx

[Aditi]

All of us second-gen desi kids were put in AYSO soccer, tennis, football, etc by our folks. Just so happened none of us took the sports seriously enough into adulthood.

[kumble_rocks]

Even the Carribbean players of Indian origin, Coffee is alluding to are not fast bowlers.

[Bongosamaj]

. How do you explain a poor nation like West Indies having a population of less than Mumbai , able to generate world class express fast bowlers in the eighties. BTW, Fishing and tourism being their main industry. But I will concede this, small countries like Thailand , Malaysia also do better than us and it is not that they are physically well endowed in comparison to us.

The Issue is part physical, part cultural. For one, subcontinentals don't make good fast bowlers because in general, our fitness sucks. The Pakistanis amongst us will immediately jump up and say ' Imran,Waqar, Wasim, Shoaib?' Have a look at how much time Shoaib, Imran,Wasim, Waqar, etc. spent injured. Wasim missed over 40 tests in his time, Waqar's injuries are legendary and so is Shoaib's while Imran had a nearly 20 year career playing just 90 tests in the span ( sure, they played far less tests back then but Imran still missed 40-50 odd tests in his time due to injury). Yes, they were all extremely talented and the aggressive streak that is inherent in pakistani culture ( they are far more aggressive culturally than us, no two ways about it) was in big part why these guys were successful despite being similar to a Ferarri that broke down every 5 days. Sure, we have produced a few odd fit cricketers but Kapil and Vaas apart, i cannot think of a SINGLE quickie from ANY subcontinental nation who had an excellent bill of health. We, as a region, have not produced many McGrath,Marshall,Ponting, Deano, Ambrose, Walsh, etc. type players, players who have longetivity along with extreme physical fitness. Simply speaking, it has nothing to do with eating meat, being veggie, having 'courage' and all that nonsense, it has everything to do with being healthy. Subcontinentals, by and large, are not a healthy people. Just about the only thing that saves our a$$ is that our food is substantially healthier ( as in home cooked food) than most other places but in terms of lifestyle and physical makeup, we are definitely one of the most inferior kind in the world. The largest part of Aussie success story is fitness. If i were to compare fitness, keeping in mind both lack of injuries and level of fitness, the Australian team has been better than us in that regard even back in the 1950s. And us subcontinentals being very much 'backwards' in terms of physical aspect has nothing to do with race, it has everything to do with culture and history along with nature of the society. Firstly, our culture for a very long time (atleast a 1000 years) has been highly supressive of sexuality. We all know how much the average muslim loves 'sexual freedom', so that doesn't need comment. But the rest of our society- the hindu community in particular- are equally opressive of sexuality. This is in stark contrast to our past where hundreds upon hundreds of monuments stand as mute testament to how much more liberated our ancestors were. The prudes amongst us like Sandtest immediately pounces upon the 'kam-lobh' spiel of his, forgetting all the while, that in periods of history we know for FACT (ie, with written records that arnt purely religious, material evidence and monuments) we spent the first half of it being extremely rich, powerful & tolerant. In many senses, India in the ancient times was the America of today minus many of the ills in America today. ironically, we were also very sexually liberated as a people back then. Ever see the connection ? No ? Well here it is- cultures that have liberal sexual themes are in general a HEALTHIER culture. The same aspect that makes two people attracted to each other and let 'love' develop is also at play here- that is the same reason why western population today are a lot more health-oriented than back in India. Yes, there are the idiots who do the whole boob-job/botox nonsense here but idiots exist everywhere. One has to have certain element of pride in one's looks to take care of their bodies and the smarter/more successful ones will always go for the 'minimal cosmetic, proportionate physical' development. Secondly, it is also a function of our history- for the last 1000 years, our population has been brutally exploited- first due to the raging madness caused by Islamic invasions, secondly due to colonialism. This period has seen countless famines and for example in Bengal area alone, i know of 5 major famines in the last 400 years. These repeated famines are why our gene-pool has been weakened. Now the skeptics will immediately play the 'Africa' card- 'if famines are it, why is Africa still producing decent # of excellent sportsmen, despite being FAR more in the throes of famine?' The answer for that is simple, yet not very obvious. Most of Africa is not based on farming to feed itself. Yes, there is farming in Africa but a very sizeable portion of African population are foragers, fishermen/hunters, animal farmers( goat & cattle farming). When you have a famine situation in Africa, hunter-gatherer lifestyle is better suited for survival (and keeping the gene-pool strong) because the ones who survive the famine have almost all survived it due to their superior physical skills and common sense. Our food-base on the other hand, is hugely agriculture-based. In societies that are agriculture-based, when famine happens, the settled lifestyle ( farming is a lot more controllable than some dude fishing out of the river-just think about it) ensures there is rampant corruption. This corruption keeps the extremely rich/powerful/influential/popular sedentary ones fed while it is the actually hard working ones that get further weakened. Just think about it for a second- if there is famine in Somalia, lot of people die but the ones who live are the ones who are extremely adept at fishing/have long endurance etc AND common-sense. If famine hits Bihar,Bengal, TN, etc, it is the rich fat-a$$ politicians, stars, religious influentials, etc. that get fed while the guy doing all the work (the farmer, labourer, etc.) ALL get to feel the pinch. Garett Harding, in his essay 'Tragedy of the Commons', shows us that this is the prime weakness of a highly industrialized/agricultural society : In times of 'pinch', corruption and social stratification rules and in general, the people of the country overall get bolloxed. And ironically, history is also a very good example of this - China is another ancient civilization like ours and like ours, very much based on agriculture as the means of survival. And in times of famine & chaos in China, much like in India, corruption prevailed. This cycle over 1000 years (in subcontinent's case) has left us with serious deficiencies in our gene pool and a cultural tilt that is fundamentally anti-sex cannot be very healthy as already shown. But i also think that this deficiency, since not inherent to our 'species' is also solvable. It won't be solved in our lifetimes, but if we started to eat healthy, remain healthy, be more active as a population, in a few generations, we too would be as fit a culture and sporting society as Australia or Germany are. And having free sexuality, where people can do what they want without drawing social stigma, within some basic rules ofcourse, serves as a huge motivating factor as well as consistent feedback factor in keeping the process going. To be honest, i do not think India has to sacrifice its 'polite' nature to succeed at the top level. Remember, a polite champion is a darling to the world- look at Federer. Guy is amazingly talented yet so polite and 'nice' guy. And everyone loves the guy. What we need to sort out is our lack of physical fitness & endurance as a culture ( and i am talking here to the Pakistani, Sri Lankan, Bangladeshi, Nepali, Bhutani and Afghan here, not just Indians) , we need to lead more active lifestyles and we need to enjoy the process ( active lifestyle as in go outdoors and PLAY something with your friends, pals, families, not go lock yourself in your basement pumping iron. that is idiotic as well). Once we do that, we will rule the roost in terms of sports. Simply because, we have the population advantage to throw up 3 Ricky Pontings for every one Australia throws up provided we adopt the real reason for Australia's excellence in sports : The nation's genuine and far heftier passion for physical activities and enjoyment outdoors.

[kumble_rocks]

CC , I am heading out now , but will reply to your post later.

[Predator_05]

Basically, all successful sporting nations have a competitive structure from grass roots level all the way to top international level. Kids here in the United States, Australia, China, Russia take up a sport or two from a very young age and become adept at it. They receive guidance and mentorship from top class coaches; realising the value of nutrition and physical prowess from a very young age. The presence of a proper structure enables them to be exposed to the competitive nature of sports from a very young age. In Australia, you have rugby clubs for kids aged 5 and up, in the USA you have little leagues, in China you have acadamies. India has no proper sporting structure. Any athletes that come within touching distance of international class do so solely through talent and persistence - unassisted by external forces. Indians just don't take sport seriously enough and it's not a viable career option for them. Sports, to an Indian - is just "khel kud" - a hobby. Something you indulge in when you aren't studying like a moron for 20 different exams. That sense of ignorance and widespread apathy is the reason why India struggles to achieve any success in top level sport

[Lurker]

Simply speaking, it has nothing to do with eating meat, being veggie, having 'courage' and all that nonsense, it has everything to do with being healthy.

Actually I think eating certainly has something to do with this Bongosamaj. How much(or how little) I don't know. Neither do I claim to have any Scientific research here. But simple logic dictates that you are not gonna be healthy unless you have a balanced diet. And to me meat/eggs/dairy forms part of a well-balanced diet. Coming to the issue of pace bowlers now, there are obviously too many factors here. I see you have mentioned about the aggression and I definitely second you on that. I remember it was Bedi who once asked why Pakistan produces fast bowler and we dont suggested "Because Islam is a more violent religion". I do see some truth in there. Of course we have also had our own speedsters but just elaborating on what you said. Speaking purely from physical perspective one thing I have noticed in Indian men is that we have weak legs, specially hamstring and butt. You can walk in India and see how jeans are practically slipping down the waist. Seriously. Since these two muscles, hams and glutes, are the ones that generate powerful momentum I wouldnt be surprised if it brings down the pace of Indian players. Not the only reason of course. xxx

[Guest HariSampath]

CA, INow compare that with how every year Annual Spelling Bee has a good 2-3 Indian kids in top 10, even top 5. Compare that with how we have already spent two Indians into space - Sunita Williams, Kalpana Chawla. Do you see a trend here? That even though we leave India we carry our Indianness with us, and we suck even in country with good Infrastructure. xxx

USA sent two Americans into space , one of them unfortunately didn't land safely , and we hope she went to heaven (RIP Kalpana), and the other one landed safely .... visited India,and then the adoring public/politicians/media etc relaunched her beyond the space and heavens into realms of demi godhood , far beyond what USA achieved :tounge_smile: :D

[Guest HariSampath]

And let me tell you Lurks, there are at least 2 Indians whom I would like to launch into space today, after the way they played, hopefully thinking they stay right there :tounge_smile:

[Bongosamaj]

But simple logic dictates that you are not gonna be healthy unless you have a balanced diet. And to me meat/eggs/dairy forms part of a well-balanced diet.

I am not going to go in that direction save for this comment : When i meant having nothing to do with meat-eating or veggie, i meant within the frameworks of the subcontinental eating style. Ie, in terms of healthyness, the veggie in subcontinent does not differ much from the non-veggie there. They are more or less both unfit people. As per your meat & eggs being part of healthy diet, i think it depends a lot on how you define health. If you mean simply being big, strong, fit people then yes, eating meat-based diet is good for that and the quickest way up there. But if you meant healthy as in your organs being healthy as well and you having healthy BLOOD CHEMISTRY, meat most definitely is not the way to go. Empiric studies at places like harvard, etc. have shown that the ideal diet for mankind is predominantly vegitarian with some animal product consumption along with fish and NOT eating meat. Having a balanced and varied diet in produce, dairy and fish gives one none of the pitfalls of meat later on in life ( obesity, cholesterol problems- and cholesterol is NOT subject to exercise!, heart problems, hardening of arteries, greater hormonal fluctuations, etc).

[fineleg]

All of us second-gen desi kids were put in AYSO soccer' date=' tennis, football, etc by our folks. Just so happened none of us took the sports seriously enough into adulthood.[/quote'] Aditi, Just to be clear: what do you mean by all of us second-gen desi kids?

[Guest HariSampath]

Aditi, Just to be clear: what do you mean by all of us second-gen desi kids?

ABCDs ? hope not :tounge_smile:

[Lurker]

As per your meat & eggs being part of healthy diet, i think it depends a lot on how you define health. If you mean simply being big, strong, fit people then yes, eating meat-based diet is good for that and the quickest way up there. But if you meant healthy as in your organs being healthy as well and you having healthy BLOOD CHEMISTRY, meat most definitely is not the way to go. Empiric studies at places like harvard, etc. have shown that the ideal diet for mankind is predominantly vegitarian with some animal product consumption along with fish and NOT eating meat. Having a balanced and varied diet in produce, dairy and fish gives one none of the pitfalls of meat later on in life ( obesity, cholesterol problems- and cholesterol is NOT subject to exercise!, heart problems, hardening of arteries, greater hormonal fluctuations, etc).

Here I disagree. For two reasons: 1) There is no conclusive study which says veggie lifestyle is better. By any Athletic journal research you will have an emphasis on meat/egg etc. And yes since I am here talking about Sports I am going to worry about Athletics Journals and not a Yoga book. 2) The issue of health, as you define it, is for average people. Not the athletes. If you have an American X with bulging quads and ripped core there is no point comparing him to an Indian man with puny legs simply by claiming the latter has better Blood Quality. Who cares? The former runs 100m inn 9.85, the latter in 10.7 seconds. Point being - if you are fighting it with the best, get yourself the fittest of the lot..and by that I mean physically, mentally and everything else..Of course once you are past 40 year or so go veggie by all means, heck just breath Oxygen for all I care. xx

[fineleg]

Aditi, Just to be clear: what do you mean by all of us second-gen desi kids?

ABCDs ? hope not :tounge_smile:

Not sure if she meant ABCDs? Thats why I wanted Aditi to clarify.

[Lurker]

USA sent two Americans into space ' date= one of them unfortunately didn't land safely , and we hope she went to heaven (RIP Kalpana), and the other one landed safely .... visited India,and then the adoring public/politicians/media etc relaunched her beyond the space and heavens into realms of demi godhood , far beyond what USA achieved :tounge_smile: :D

Yes I had issues with that too. As also Kalpana Chawla(RIP) celebration by India. They are Americans, let them be. xxx