Oldies are not required

[Bumper]

Tendulkar faltered in just one World Cup and India failed to make it to the next stage. Do you see a connection there? It has been because of this guy that we have reached the knock out stages of World Cups, CTs, and have managed to beat Australia. He is the main reason for India having a half decent ODI record over the last 18 years and he falters in one tournament and we are out of it. That is the extent we are dependent on his performances.

Your are either conveniently or inadvertently side stepping the point -- which is "Tendulkar's recent form is no indication of what is to be expected of him come big games". No one questioned Sachin's greatness or spot back in 2003, because he deserved the accolades & his spot in the team. But recently his form has been quite deceptive. He hasnt shown the stomach for a fight when it matters, regardless of his form.

Inzamam and Lara are much older than Tendulkar and both were preforming at a far lower level than Tendulkar is at the moment. They were averaging around the 30 run mark as opposed to 45 that Tendulkar is averaging.

But their spots in their teams are relatively comparable to Tendulkar's in India, innit ? Lara is still WI's best bat, Inzi is atleast Pak's top 2 ODI bat. So the comparison is apples to apples.

[Bumper]

Remember that all 3 seniors freely vacated their 20/20 spots and quite rightly so. That said they were and remain perfectly within their rights to keep their foot in the ODIs for as long as they continue to perform consistently. In any event it's for the selectors who ultimately decide who plays and who doesn't. Dravid, for example, was dropped in the last ODI which was not particularly surprising. The team is in need of a good mix and as I say rotation is key.

How do you know whether they voluntarily gave it up or were forced to ? Just days after that decision, there were reports in the media that neither Sachin nor Ganguly were happy about that announcement and that Dravid did so, at the behest of our cheapf selector.

[The Outsider]

Your are either conveniently or inadvertently side stepping the point -- which is "Tendulkar's recent form is no indication of what is to be expected of him come big games". No one questioned Sachin's greatness or spot back in 2003, because he deserved the accolades & his spot in the team. But recently his form has been quite deceptive. He hasnt shown the stomach for a fight when it matters, regardless of his form.

I am not side stepping any point. Firstly, you choose to apply an arbitrary cut off for the year 2000 for performance in finals. Why not look at his overall performance in finals? Or why not look at his most recent innings in a final? Because on both counts, you won't be left with any mud to splatter on the guy who is the reason behind India's half decent ODI record and continues to perform.

But their spots in their teams are relatively comparable to Tendulkar's in India, innit ? Lara is still WI's best bat, Inzi is atleast Pak's top 2 ODI bat. So the comparison is apples to apples.

Lara was not WI best batsman in ODIs for a long time. Gayle, Chanderpaul, and Sarwan all had better ODI records than him over the past few years. Same with Inzamam. Yousuf and Malik had been consistently outperforming Inzamam for at least a couple of years. Moreover, both of them are 3-4 years older than Tendulkar. Not apples to apples by any stretch of imagination.

How do you know whether they voluntarily gave it up or were forced to ? Just days after that decision, there were reports in the media that neither Sachin nor Ganguly were happy about that announcement and that Dravid did so, at the behest of our cheapf selector.

What rubbish!!! Indian media and its "sources" are to be trusted over the word of sportsmen who have shown themselves to be men of integrity and honesty for many years.

[living]

btw without SRT you wouldn't have Sehwag. I strongly believe that SRT was influential in molding sehwag into the opener he had become. SRT IMO is basically the resident batting coach who still plays much better than everyone else and also has a lot to offer.

[Hawkeye]

How do you know whether they voluntarily gave it up or were forced to ? Just days after that decision' date=' there were reports in the media that neither Sachin nor Ganguly were happy about that announcement and that Dravid did so, at the behest of our cheapf selector.[/quote'] I don't but I didn't hear any one of them firmly refute the contention. Whether they did so or not, as I have already indicated, is irrelevant because the onus was not on them to step back. The selectors and not the payers choose who ought to play.

[Bumper]

I am not side stepping any point. Firstly, you choose to apply an arbitrary cut off for the year 2000 for performance in finals. Why not look at his overall performance in finals? Or why not look at his most recent innings in a final? Because on both counts, you won't be left with any mud to splatter on the guy who is the reason behind India's half decent ODI record and continues to perform.

Most recent finals is still close to 4 years old. As for the cut off, u gotta draw that cut off somewhere. It should be a large enough sample to prove a point. Still to humour you, I'll quote stats from multiple years: Since 2000, his avg in finals is 27 Since 2001, his avg in finals is 24 Since 2002, his avg in finals is 29 Since 2003, his avg in finals is 31 Since 2004, his avg in finals is 36 (just 3 games) Happy now ? I dont see any significant progression in the averages. Do you ? And what he did in the 90s is hardly relevant now. He has been an entirely diff batsman in the last 5 years, esp.

Lara was not WI best batsman in ODIs for a long time. Gayle, Chanderpaul, and Sarwan all had better ODI records than him over the past few years. Same with Inzamam. Yousuf and Malik had been consistently outperforming Inzamam for at least a couple of years. Moreover, both of them are 3-4 years older than Tendulkar. Not apples to apples by any stretch of imagination.

Moot point. Do Lara & Inzi deserve a spot in their resp teams ? Yes. Apples and apples. India has a rich tradition of producing quality batsmen. So we may replace a half Tendulkar someday. WI or Pak will find it significantly harder to replace Lara and Inzi resp.

What rubbish!!! Indian media and its "sources" are to be trusted over the word of sportsmen who have shown themselves to be men of integrity and honesty for many years.

I dont trust anyone. Neither the media nor the players. Both the India media and the players are selfish enough to be capable of such things. Anyways if interested, feel free to browse this article. http://www.rediff.com/cricket/2007/jul/28uklead01.htm And read this snippet carefully:

But, Ganguly, speaking to the channel before the start of the first Test at Lord's, expressed his disappointment on missing out of the Twenty20 World Cup. "Obviously, it was tempting to participate and I was eager for the inaugural Twenty20 Championship. It is sad to opt out of any form of cricket," Times Now had quoted the left-hander as saying. "It was a difficult decision but Rahul and Sachin had already said 'no'. I had a word with Rahul and he said it will be right to sit out," he added. The television channel went on to say that Tendulkar too was eager to participate in the tournament 'but when the decision was made, he expressed his disapproval by not talking to Dravid at the nets session at Sussex.'

These are direct quotes from Ganguly published in a reliable news source! If he opted out voluntarily why is he disappointed.

[fineleg]

I agree' date=' but seniors never vacate their spots!! Ganguly scored runs but at a leisurely pace,.[/quote'] If left to ganguly, he will never retire from odis even if he turns 50 yrs old and his s/r is 10 :D you've gotta "offer him" retirement.

[living]

LOL - "offer him"

[fineleg]

LOL - "offer him"

if i were bcci, there will be a quiet talk asking him (ganguly) to retire gracefully. if he wont, just drop him (from odis) and just move on. there is no need for any other offer.

[bharat297]

My point is, if a player is in form, then some skewed statistics of track record in finals doesnt mean much. If a player is playing well, then regardless of who they are, they are a benefit to the team and thus are an immense benefit to the side and can help us to win the big tournaments. Shane Warne didnt have a great record in India prior to 2004, and was 35 at the time. But because of his ability and the fact he was in form, they picked him for the tour of India in 2004, and had much more success there. His post world cup form has been excellent and has delivered when the series is on the line too. Unfortunately Sachin has not had much support this year. You speak of Gilly's performance under pressure, but you are forgetting that in those pressure matches Hayden, Ponting, Martyn, etc all performed around him with 50s as well.

[chanakya]

MM, If they (bcci) are willing to take that step, I'm willing to endure skewed losses for a year. I think it will benefit in the long run. But they wont do that, so at least they must play only ONE maharathi per ODI match. Sit out two and rotate them.

This from the person who creates threads about we have lost it every half time?

[Bumper]

My point is, if a player is in form, then some skewed statistics of track record in finals doesnt mean much. If a player is playing well, then regardless of who they are, they are a benefit to the team and thus are an immense benefit to the side and can help us to win the big tournaments.

This is getting a bit boring, to be honest, as we are backtracking to square one again. I'll repeat once again. When a player gets old, his utility value is short lived. To justify such short term picks over rebuilding the team, track record of the player in question, is important.

Shane Warne didnt have a great record in India prior to 2004, and was 35 at the time. But because of his ability and the fact he was in form, they picked him for the tour of India in 2004, and had much more success there. His post world cup form has been excellent and has delivered when the series is on the line too.

Funny example. If you are gonna quote examples like that you better be sure it strengthens your argument. What did Shane Warne do in BG trophy 2004 ? He finished as Australia's WORST bowler on that tour, with an average of 30.07 behind lesser spinners Michael Clarke & Nathan Hauritz:hysterical: MJ Clarke 6 wickets @ 2.16 JN Gillespie 20 @ 16.15 NM Hauritz 5 @ 20.60 GD McGrath 14 @ 25.42 MS Kasprowicz 9 @ 28.33 SK Warne 14 @ 30.07 Mind you this is on the back of one of India's worst ever batting performances at home. Imagine what stats Warney would have ended up with if our batsmen were able to replicate their 2001 efforts

Unfortunately Sachin has not had much support this year. You speak of Gilly's performance under pressure, but you are forgetting that in those pressure matches Hayden, Ponting, Martyn, etc all performed around him with 50s as well.

Huh ? This is a bigger baloney than Warney's example. So you are suggesting that as an opener, Gilly or a Sachin need support from the middle order. Thats the first time i've heard that :hysterical: And in the example i quoted on Gilly (WC 2007 finals), he top scored with 149 in a 38 over game, with the next top score being 38. Anyways am done here, i dont think I have anything more to say, that I havent said already,

[fineleg]

This from the person who creates threads about we have lost it every half time?

Yes, it is from that person. We cannot have the Maharathi Superstars and then not even put up a good fight and meekly surrender - that will warrant threads. What the heck are the Maharathis there for, if they cannot even make a match out of it (forget winning for a moment!) *bah*

[sachin_fan]

I find one thing that is not of a lot of mention here . Fielding. I saw a tremendous increase in fielding standards during the 20-20. Also was the singles that ghambir and uthappa were pinching. I think this is a new face to indian cricket. I think a rotation policy HAS to be implemented. We need to bring about a change to the team... Among the seniors, i think sach has had a gr8 year followed by Ganguly. Dravid is doing pretty bad. Ideally, it would make sense to rest him for the 1st 2 ODI's followed by other seniors. I am not a senior basher at all....and the team would do well with the seniors, but i think a new front is fast emerging. Each player should stay in his team through his own merit....Cricket needs great fielders, a team can save close to 30 runs with their fielding....the indian cricket team is lagging behind.... Look at the team Dravid, Sachin, Ganguly, Zaheer,thats 4 out of 11 who arent great fielders...none of the above 4 can dive and prevent a 4.....Drav, Sach and ganguly can hog the slips, but not in ODI's.....Sachin has a good arm, but his speed at the boundary ropes is receding and thats negating his arm.....dravid is one of the best in the slips, and ganguly is one of the best catcher of skiers i have seen But we got to agree, Zak cannot field gr8....thts his limitation...if such limitation can be overcome, he deserves a place...if not....he should make way....Fielding, fitness and running between wickets....that can make such a lot of difference.... If only we had a couple in the middle order who can pinch quick singles and keep the score board ticking

[living]

SRT is a pretty good outfielder and RD is very useful in the slip region. RD did take some amazing catches in the series!!

[Yuvraj4Captaincy]

loll...the less we talk abt the fielding of the maharathis the better

[Yuvraj4Captaincy]

SRT is a pretty good outfielder and RD is very useful in the slip region. RD did take some amazing catches in the series!!

it got mroe to do with hiding them somewhere where they r least exposed.....

[bharat297]

Huh ? This is a bigger baloney than Warney's example. So you are suggesting that as an opener, Gilly or a Sachin need support from the middle order. Thats the first time i've heard that :hysterical: And in the example i quoted on Gilly (WC 2007 finals), he top scored with 149 in a 38 over game, with the next top score being 38.

This is the first time you heard that openers need to be supported by a strong middle order? Do you know anything about cricket? Yeah, Im sure your right, openers dont need any support and must always do everything themselves, like Gilchrist did in WC 2007. Go TEAM India!!! Nice work

This is getting a bit boring, to be honest, as we are backtracking to square one again. I'll repeat once again. When a player gets old, his utility value is short lived. To justify such short term picks over rebuilding the team, track record of the player in question, is important.

I disagree with that. Form & ability overrides track record based on matches here and there. If a player is in form, and they have the ability, then the track record means very little, because those things can turn around. After the world cup, people came out with all sorts of stats about his poor record in matches where India are chasing either on a difficult batting pitch or chasing a 280-300+ target. However, Sachin was able to play himself into good form and he has played a couple of gems in run chases this year such as the 93 in Belfast, the 94 in England, and the 72 two matches ago. The last one would have been a matchwinner if the middle order (dravid, yuvraj and dhoni) "supported" Sachin and played their part towards the run chase, only Uthappa played his part in that match. Suddenly this "track record" about poor performances batting 2nd in high run chases has died down. Brian Lara since 2000 averaged 16.37 in all finals matches and 14.33 in grand finals. However his form towards the end of his career was sublime, and people were smart enough to realise that a player of Lara's calibre in form would still be a tremendous asset in finals matches regardless of a poor track record. In the end, he retired on his own terms.

[bharat297]

it got mroe to do with hiding them somewhere where they r least exposed.....

Sachin is a better fielder than Zaheer Khan and has a stronger arm in the outfield than many of the other players. Remember, while it is important to be good fielders and there is nothing more frustrating than seeing misfields out there, but it defeats the purpose of saving 20 or 30 runs in the field if you lack the extra 60 or 70 runs with the bat, or you are lacking the ability to take those extra 2 or 3 wickets

[sachin_fan]

Sachin is a better fielder than Zaheer Khan and has a stronger arm in the outfield than many of the other players. Remember' date=' while it is important to be good fielders and there is nothing more frustrating than seeing misfields out there, but it defeats the purpose of saving 20 or 30 runs in the field if you lack the extra 60 or 70 runs with the bat, or you are lacking the ability to take those extra 2 or 3 wickets[/quote'] I totally agree with the fact that sachin has a strong arm. My point is this. You cannot overlook fielding and an indian team cannot hope to excel with 4 poor fielders. We have consistently dropped atleast 1 catch per match in the last 5.6 matches. The impact of such dropped catches are huge. While u talk about lacking 60-70 in the bat, scoring 60-70 with the bat and loosing 30-40 in the field is equally bad, if not worse