Precambrian Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 The owners who invest millions on their teams aren't surely going to have it easy on their players. Star players like Steyn may be able to dictate some of the terms of workload' date=' but the lesser and upcoming players don't have that luxury. Practice sessions are there in any form of cricket, [b']but it is very likely that the workload in IPL is higher than it is while playing for state teams. Because they pay you like hell and you will under terrific pressure to work hard and deliver. Again another "conjecture". You seem to suggest something which you refuses to back up with any sort of proof. Of course they aren't going to be "easy" on the players, but that is on actual performance front, and not on what they do in practise sessions.:cantstop: I really don't understand what you are suggesting here - So IPL teams make their bowlers bowl 15-20 overs a day prior to an IPL match so that they can somehow "utilize" the players for the millions they are being paid? Do you even understand how ridiculous that sounds? IPL teams rely on international/domestic players 99% of the time, and they select such players based on their actual performance and in some cases star value plus perception. No, contrary to what you think, they do not lock them down in a dingy place and make them bowl and bat for days to somehow "make them pay back" for the money they are being paid :cantstop: Instead they spend most time in team bonding sessions since the players are from different backgrounds and do the little things right.
Malcolm Merlyn Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 Cricinfo has really turned into a poor website.
AmreekanDesi Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Australia is so careful in managing the work loads of their quick bowlers. Bowlers like Pattinson are carefully monitored. It is pathetic to watch someone like Aaron made to bowl around 50 overs on an unresponsive pitch. which is why they keep breaking down? think aussie bowlers are overrated apart from mitch johnson not one bowler can get through a season without injury
bulbul Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Nah, you are not watching international cricket closely. Take example of Steyn himself. Has been relatively injury free for most of his career. Why? Managed workload. On an average, per innings, he bowls just 14 overs for SA. In a spell, hardly more than 4-5 overs. Further, he is not risked by made to play mundane ODIs. In his career spanning over a decade, he has played just over 100 ODIs, most of them in important tournaments like the world cup. His career workload is so well managed that there has been only 1 year in his whole career when he has bowled over 500 overs in a single year, across all formats. Same applies for Morne Morkel as well. Almost exactly similar work pattern. Compare that with Ishant. Ishant Sharma, despite being just 17/18, was made to bowl 546 overs in just 2008 alone. And he was supposed to be bowling at 150 kph back then at that young age. Obviously so much in so less time and at an age when he was developing was invariably going to cost him, thus injuries resulted. And to ensure a longer career, he had to cut down on his pace. Interestingly Mitchell Johnson is a perfect example which denotes the positives and negatives of managed workload. The chap was made to toil like a horse in his early years, clocking over 700 overs in a year in 2008 and 2009 - and that cost him dearly. He bowled another 530 overs in 2010. Within a year he disintegrated - and was out of the team. But he worked hard to fix his issues, and came back, and then his workload was managed properly. He hasn't sent down over 450 overs in a year since and remains Australia's primary weapon. In Pakistan,England everywhere domestic bowlers bowl same as India. Dale steyn is exceptional case. If Dhoni have concerns he have to mention specifically trhe examples,just random comments will not help. From English Domestic [Not filtered] http://stats.espncricinfo.com/county-championship-div1-2014/engine/records/bowling/most_wickets_career.html?id=8771;type=tournament from Pakistan domestic [Not filtered] http://stats.espncricinfo.com/pakistan-domestic-2014-15/engine/records/bowling/most_wickets_career.html?class=4;host=7;id=2014%2F15;type=season
bulbul Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 1.Dhoni need to be clearly give examples or explain issue ion proper. [may be he have given it to BCCI...] 2.When a state asks a fast bowler who is in international break to play in domestic game Indian team management can give inputs/conditions of players to state. End of day Dhoni/Team management can himself put some effort to solve this issue.Its not like they don't have any say.
bulbul Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Not sure. Mohit has not played that many FC games. But yes, he stands the risk of becoming a trundler. I was glad to see him bowl 140+ in Australia. But if state association are going to make him a workhorse then expect him to become another Vinay Koomar. I think he's referring to the likes of Dinda, Pankaj, etc who started out promising and later became trundlers. He is talking about this... Dhoni said: "This is a problem that we have had for quite some time now in our set-up," Dhoni said at his post-match press conference. "Once a fast bowler completes his international assignment he is then asked by his local state associations to come and bowl in domestic cricket. However, there are no checks and balances on the number of overs they are being asked to bowl." Without naming any bowler, Dhoni suggested there was undue pressure on them to keep their state association happy. "If the fast bowler refuses to play domestic matches, then the local association gets annoyed and would grumble that, 'Now that you are playing for India means that you won't play for us.' So problems are there." Its nothing to do with number of overs bowled by domestic bowlers who doesn't play for India.. His concerns may be valid,but he is commenting that in PC wont help,he should have raised this issue with Seeni when Seeni was BCCI chairman... This just required proper planning and communication between Indian team management & State associations.I guess there is a analyst/doctor etc ion Indian team they can prepare a detailed report baout how much work load a fast bowler already had and how much he can take etc...
MK55 Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 which is why they keep breaking down? think aussie bowlers are overrated apart from mitch johnson not one bowler can get through a season without injury There's no bowler in the world that can bowl 90 + mph and not get injured. Eslecially in the early years you are bound to get injured. Its one thing sustaining your body and keeping yourself injury free bowling at 130k. Its a completely different thing when your bowling 145 +. The point is about managing the workloads so that we can minimize the injuries for high risk geniuine guick bowlers. And we of all countries should realize this. We arent SA or AUS with plethora of fast bowlers. And I definitely dont think AUS bowlers are over rated. Starc, Cummins, Hazlewood, Coulternile, Pattinson are a formidable bunch.
Texan Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 This should have come up a long time ago. I am glad Dhoni has brought it up. It is ridiculous that BCCI has no program to manage the workload of fast bowlers. What we need is making a shortlist of the top 10 or 12 fast/fast-medium bowlers in India. Then each state association should be informed that those bowlers, when available to play for their respective state associations should not be allowed to bowl any more than 15 overs in a day. A spell for the out and out fast bowlers like Aaron or Umesh should be no more than 4-5 overs. It is high time we manage this pool of bowlers well so they don't lose their pace or get injured. Bowlers win matches and until and unless we start nurturing talent, we won't have the bowlers to win matches.
vijay50 Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 The other problem that Dhoni has to tell the media is player management after injury or getting dropped. We have lost several pace bowlers like Praveen Kumar, Irfan Pathan, M unaf Patel etc falling through cracks through injury, mismanagement that they don't come back to play for Indian team after injury. What is the BCCI doing for this?
BeautifulGame Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 The other problem that Dhoni has to tell the media is player management after injury or getting dropped. We have lost several pace bowlers like Praveen Kumar, Irfan Pathan, M unaf Patel etc falling through cracks through injury, mismanagement that they don't come back to play for Indian team after injury. What is the BCCI doing for this? Don't think this is an issue anymore. Now with IPL contracts and their professional set ups most players are motivated /taken care of when out of Indian set up with injuries and loss of form .c IPL will always keep fast bowlers in the limelight unlike in the past with Ranji
vijay50 Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Don't think this is an issue anymore. Now with IPL contracts and their professional set ups most players are motivated /taken care of when out of Indian set up with injuries and loss of form .c IPL will always keep fast bowlers in the limelight unlike in the past with Ranji I'm talking ODI and test Kirkuk , not IPL.
BeautifulGame Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 I'm talking ODI and test Kirkuk ' date=' not IPL.[/quote'] Its the same for bowlers . When u r out of the team, there is still a lucrative IPL contract to take care of them .So no need to cut down on pace like Munaf or Nehra did and toil as trundlers is domestic FC In the past the only way to get back into the team or only income is toil in our Ranji which broke any fast bowler .Not nowadays
BlueBee Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Our whole FC structure needs a reform. Pitches should be made like those in Australia where genuine fast bowlers can succeed and spinners come into play in the later stages of the game. Pick the best players from all the teams and make 4-5 teams. Let them play around 10 FC every year. Just like Grade Cricket promote good players from the other teams to these teams and demote the non performers back to the lower graded teams. Genuine batsmen and bowlers are sure to persist.
Precambrian Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 In Pakistan,England everywhere domestic bowlers bowl same as India. Dale steyn is exceptional case. If Dhoni have concerns he have to mention specifically trhe examples,just random comments will not help. From English Domestic [Not filtered] http://stats.espncricinfo.com/county-championship-div1-2014/engine/records/bowling/most_wickets_career.html?id=8771;type=tournament from Pakistan domestic [Not filtered] http://stats.espncricinfo.com/pakistan-domestic-2014-15/engine/records/bowling/most_wickets_career.html?class=4;host=7;id=2014%2F15;type=season Perhaps that's why both nations are not throwing up good pace bowlers as they used to? Steven Finn was the most promising young bowler a few seasons back. Now he is getting trundlerised, isn't he? England is making the same mistake Aus made with Johnson initially and Ind made with Ishant in my opinion. Also it helps that in Eng the conditions are much cooler and helpful for fast bowlers to operate on, unlike the hot/humid situation in India. There is a huge amount of difference. Plus the pitches which do not sap your energy out. Pakistan too is suffering from the same issues - they haven't thrown up a good, reliable, long term good pace bowler since Ws retired. That is discussed in another thread.
bulbul Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Perhaps that's why both nations are not throwing up good pace bowlers as they used to? Steven Finn was the most promising young bowler a few seasons back. Now he is getting trundlerised, isn't he? England is making the same mistake Aus made with Johnson initially and Ind made with Ishant in my opinion. Also it helps that in Eng the conditions are much cooler and helpful for fast bowlers to operate on, unlike the hot/humid situation in India. There is a huge amount of difference. Plus the pitches which do not sap your energy out. Pakistan too is suffering from the same issues - they haven't thrown up a good, reliable, long term good pace bowler since Ws retired. That is discussed in another thread. Peter Siddle bowled 350+ Overs in COunty last season. Johnson they are taking care because of Injuries..which Indian bowler who is injured plays frequently for team? Only express bowler plays consistently for India is Yadav who is have very good physical conditions. Question Dhoni raising nothign to do with domestic bowlers who doesn't play for India , he is having some issues with bowlers who play for Indian team who were asked to play Ranji during International break...My guess is he have some complaints from certain players,but he as to take this up with his bosses by giving specific examples.. What you are writing here and what Dhoni saying are totally different things. Dhoni said: "This is a problem that we have had for quite some time now in our set-up," Dhoni said at his post-match press conference. "Once a fast bowler completes his international assignment he is then asked by his local state associations to come and bowl in domestic cricket. However, there are no checks and balances on the number of overs they are being asked to bowl." Without naming any bowler, Dhoni suggested there was undue pressure on them to keep their state association happy. "If the fast bowler refuses to play domestic matches, then the local association gets annoyed and would grumble that, 'Now that you are playing for India means that you won't play for us.' So problems are there.ns that you won't play for us.' So problems are there." WHta Dhoni says is valid but question is why he is not taking this up with BCCI/Selectors? As a captain he have some say right? Also i am not able t guess which player he is talking about :hmmmm:
Precambrian Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 He is talking about this... Its nothing to do with number of overs bowled by domestic bowlers who doesn't play for India.. His concerns may be valid,but he is commenting that in PC wont help,he should have raised this issue with Seeni when Seeni was BCCI chairman... This just required proper planning and communication between Indian team management & State associations.I guess there is a analyst/doctor etc ion Indian team they can prepare a detailed report baout how much work load a fast bowler already had and how much he can take etc... Dinda, Pankaj, Vinay all are Indian players. Yes, I completely agree he should voice this in appropriate channels and everyone needs to work together.
Precambrian Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Its the same for bowlers . When u r out of the team, there is still a lucrative IPL contract to take care of them .So no need to cut down on pace like Munaf or Nehra did and toil as trundlers is domestic FC In the past the only way to get back into the team or only income is toil in our Ranji which broke any fast bowler .Not nowadays How many up an coming bowlers have so called 'lucrative" IPL contracts? FYI its not BCCI who issue contracts in ipl, but franchises. Further, these franchises are not obligated to pay the players who are injured prior to the IPL, playing for their national or domestic team. With all these riders in place, how's an IPL contract going to be anywhere near a motivation for these players? On the contrary, this will make them only more cautious while playing domestics, by not exerting themselves fully to prevent injuries and thus make it to the IPL.
Precambrian Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Peter Siddle bowled 350+ Overs in COunty last season. Johnson they are taking care because of Injuries..which Indian bowler who is injured plays frequently for team? Only express bowler plays consistently for India is Yadav who is have very good physical conditions. You are putting the horse before the cart. And the argument is a virtual loop. Its not as if we don't have good promising pace bowlers, its just that they are managed poorly. I am not an advocate of "pace is everything". We need a mix of everything. But what we are getting now is just a mix of trundlers. That situation should change. Peter Siddle is suffering from exactly the same issues. He is over thirty, and no longer in the primary plans for Aussies. He was dropped in the Ind test series. His bowling average in the last two years is close to 40, with 2014 being his worst, over 54. I am fairly confident that Siddle won't make the Aussie test team in coming year, unless there is a miracle where frontline bowlers get injured. But then, with the rise of players like Starc, Hazlewood, Cummins etc, Aussies might not need him anymore. Yes, Aussies made a big mistake with Johnson and they are correcting it now. By managing his workload properly and that is why he remains a very potent bowler for them. Same goes with Steyn and Morkel for South Africa. It is no wonder why Steyn has hence managed to be no.1 in test cricket for the last 7-8 years! Question Dhoni raising nothign to do with domestic bowlers who doesn't play for India , he is having some issues with bowlers who play for Indian team who were asked to play Ranji during International break...My guess is he have some complaints from certain players,but he as to take this up with his bosses by giving specific examples.. What you are writing here and what Dhoni saying are totally different things. WHta Dhoni says is valid but question is why he is not taking this up with BCCI/Selectors? As a captain he have some say right? Also i am not able t guess which player he is talking about :hmmmm: Its the same thing dude. He's in short complaining about how prospective Indian bowlers (that includes ex as well) are trundlerised due to the heavy workload put on them by state associations.
bulbul Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 You are putting the horse before the cart. And the argument is a virtual loop. Its not as if we don't have good promising pace bowlers, its just that they are managed poorly. I am not an advocate of "pace is everything". We need a mix of everything. But what we are getting now is just a mix of trundlers. That situation should change. Peter Siddle is suffering from exactly the same issues. He is over thirty, and no longer in the primary plans for Aussies. He was dropped in the Ind test series. His bowling average in the last two years is close to 40, with 2014 being his worst, over 54. I am fairly confident that Siddle won't make the Aussie test team in coming year, unless there is a miracle where frontline bowlers get injured. But then, with the rise of players like Starc, Hazlewood, Cummins etc, Aussies might not need him anymore. Yes, Aussies made a big mistake with Johnson and they are correcting it now. By managing his workload properly and that is why he remains a very potent bowler for them. Same goes with Steyn and Morkel for South Africa. It is no wonder why Steyn has hence managed to be no.1 in test cricket for the last 7-8 years! Its the same thing dude. He's in short complaining about how prospective Indian bowlers (that includes ex as well) are trundlerised due to the heavy workload put on them by state associations. Conjecture :winky:
Precambrian Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 https://secure.ausport.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/238379/Cricket_Australia_Junior_Policy.pdf A manual showing the recommended hours of training/workload for prospective Australian young players. Look at the detailed analysis and the professional approach. How many of our bowlers adhere to such a schedule?
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