Modi versus Chalta hai

[Ram]

He is still the most popular BJP leader. Yes its true Advani runs the day to day business, much like Nandan Nilekani does at Infosys(and not Narayanmurthy). But when Vajpayee says something, people listen, even his ardent distractors. He is one man in BJP, even non-BJP fans respect.

I strongly disagree. Vajpayee was never BJP's most popular leader to begin with, but was thrown into national prominence in 98. BJP needed someone who had a more moderate background to sell him a PM candidate to the media and the Indian people. Vajpayee was the natural choice since Advani was strongly associated with the Ram Mandhir movement.

[Ram]

Yes. A great scholar and a good foreign affairs expert. I respected the man' date=' disliked the fact he became PM...no grass root level support again.[/quote'] The reason why i brought up his name was, you dont need to be a grass-roots guy to go the top, you just have to be compromise candidate, one that is acceptable to all constituencies within the powers that be.

[Lurker]

I strongly disagree. Vajpayee was never BJP's most popular leader to begin with' date= but was thrown into national prominence in 98. BJP needed someone who had a more moderate background to sell him a PM candidate to the media and the Indian people. Vajpayee was the natural choice since Advani was strongly associated with the Ram Mandhir movement.

Thats the keyword - BJP's leader. Yes Vajpayee may not have been the most popular BJP leader(that is debatable but I can see your point) for the simple reason that he is a moderate in an otherwise right wing party. Even after Gujrat riots he had come out against Modi, made some statement about Rajniti and if I remember correctly had to retract it later(maybe RSS pressure?). But what Vajpayee portarayed was a nice clean image of BJP. People who were not sure of BJP still voted for Vajpayee. And those that supported BJP supported them anyway. In the end BJP sold Vajpayee's image and made good. But of course Vajpayee is no Manmohan, he is very much his own person. His selection at top was more to show(or hide) the moderate(fundamentalist) face of Vajpayee. xxx

[Guest dada_rocks]

What a cr@ppy post DR. You are free to support BJP but what gives that you have the galls to go after Indian population in general? This comes from the man who supports a largely Vajpayee-Advani party over the years? Are you telling me that today Rajnath Singh is the biggest crowd puller for BJP? What are you smoking? By the by if you are realllyyyyy into cadre based party dont look beyond Communist Parties. Few know their top leaders but they still manage to win elections. Certainly more disciplined than BJP. And yes Modi's advent is causing heart-attacks in BJP. Why only BJP, even Shiv Sena is feeling the heat. It should be interesting to see how Thackeray starts firing to show that he is the sole Hindu Hriday Samrat. This Gujrat election might very well affect Indian elections in coming years, for good or bad. xxxx

I am sory to say u have very feeble understanding of politics and subject of debate.. I know u will like to change the topic to how I am abusing indian population but that's not the topic. Yes indian population largely buys into Raajshahi in intra-party politics. History is witness to that. Media too is enamoured with this kind of thinking where they will brand any semblance of intra-party democracy as kind of squabble in the party.. Why sud anyone even raise the question in negative way might I add that Modi's rise might threaten other leaders. To me it;s very natural ppostiev development.. You don't see political pundits in USA touting rise of Obama as some kind of negative thing maligning democratic party. Mind you their battle usually is much abusive muck-raking as much larger scale goes on there. IN fact I put comunazis and BJP as only two parties which has some semblance of intra-party democracy hence the dtolerance of dissent. Advani/Vajpayee arose from the ranks nobody instated them at the top by virtue of their birth in some particualr family. Of course as long as they are around they will doin the leadership. Point to be made here do u see BJP chanting a or in wait mode ala Yuvraj Rahul or yuvraj Rajeev or bahu Sonia. Stop obfucasting subject of debate nobody grudges a Nehru remaining leader of the party for 17 years ( if u find problem with Advani/ Vaj[ayee as long time leader I guess u sud have problem with Nehru too he didn;t leave chair till his death Vaj[ayeeji comes of better by his standard) what people begrudge is congressi's proclivity to ask nehru's daughter or next round nehru's daughter's son for subsequent round nehru's daughter's son's son for the next round again. In between some stop-gap functioned as someone warmign the seat till real Waarish prepares himself/herself. Point is wards of Advani/BJP ain't in reckoning for top post it's open house whoever is most eligible will take the baton. In a battle like this heart-burn is but natural among the contenders. Main point is whether once leadership role is fixed they support each other or not. there can be an exception like lately we saw in kerala in communist party and samples like Keshubhai Patel but over-all everyone pitches in wafter the internal battle is settled and that's how it should be.

[Guest dada_rocks]

Yes. A great scholar and a good foreign affairs expert. I respected the man' date=' disliked the fact he became PM...no grass root level support again.[/quote'] Media guys used to fear I K gujral an improptu man with tons of knowldege not many socalled media pundits could match his wits and breadth of knowldege on most of the issues

[kumble_rocks]

Yes. A great scholar and a good foreign affairs expert. I respected the man' date= disliked the fact he became PM...no grass root level support again.

Do you remember "the hug" between Saddamn Hussain and Gujral ! :D Incidentally , this was after Hussain invaded Kuwait. That was one of the few blemish in his CV. But great scholar he was .

[Guest dada_rocks]

But Keshubhai isnt the only disgruntled BJP leader in Gujrat.

rest are flies wud find it hard to retain their own seat if asked to fight independently..

[Lurker]

I shall ignore the other part since it is rant etc.

Advani/Vajpayee arose from the ranks nobody instated them at the top by virtue of their birth in some particualr family.

Okay so in one line you right this, and then you follow it with a

Of course as long as they are around they will doin the leadership.

See the irony?? You are basically suggesting that Vajpayee/Advani has always led BJP, lead BJP now, and will lead BJP forever. And then you rant about cadre based party. Help me understand how a cadre based party does not stand behind Rajnath Singh and even its ardent fans suggest as long as Vaj/Ad are around they should do the leadership. xxx

[Guest dada_rocks]

No pity at all. If anything this will give the true picture of BJP. And I dont even mean the policy. BJP tries to show that it is different to every other party. That their party is very much cadre driven and disciplined. That their party members are essentially workers who obey their higher ups, who obey their higher ups and so on. Ultimately everyone listens to who is the head honcho. The truth of course is completely different. Since the days I have followed Indian politics BJP is essentially Advani/Vajpayee. It did not matter if Mata Schindhia or Murali Manohar Joshi was head of the party. The party basically fought under the duo. Today in Gujrata Modi is the person and BJP is well and truly effed. You will find ample evidence of this in Modi's speech where he refers to himself more than times than he refers to BJP. Not to mention not too many party bigwigs showed up for canvassing. It should be interesting to see how this pans out. If Modi wins he may very well be the strongest person in BJP and old warriors might have to call it a day sooner than later. xxx

You may be surprised to find that's the fact even now some keshubhais notwithstanding..Towering fugure gets mentioned it's natural electoral politics.

[Lurker]

Do you remember "the hug" between Saddamn Hussain and Gujral ! :D Incidentally ' date=' this was after Hussain invaded Kuwait.[/quote'] Actually KR I dont have any issue with Saddam. The man was evil etc etc yes, but he was also the biggest supporter of India in ME(along with Yasser Arafat). The two of them were permanent pain in the rear for Pakistan and but for the two, specially Saddam, OIC would have been lot troublesome for India in 80s. xxx

[Guest dada_rocks]

I shall ignore the other part since it is rant etc. Okay so in one line you right this, and then you follow it with a See the irony?? You are basically suggesting that Vajpayee/Advani has always led BJP, lead BJP now, and will lead BJP forever. And then you rant about cadre based party. Help me understand how a cadre based party does not stand behind Rajnath Singh and even its ardent fans suggest as long as Vaj/Ad are around they should do the leadership. xxx

There is no irony there they have earned their leadership right working tirelessly. Ain;t imposed on party from outside .. Vajpayee started as simple worker of RSS so did Advani. I don't get this idea that they were always the leader. U are missing the point or deliberately obfustacitng the issue. They are ;eader because even today party wants them to.. It's no through any birth-right. Talk to me when Adavni insists or party insisits next leader will be Advani's daughter. How long will be tenure of any chosen leader that's prerogative of the party brass again. Ther eis no impositton involved.. IN USA rule is that none can be presidnet mroe than two times hence the party in power nominates the president as candidate twice without going through primaries. in india there is no such rule so people cling on to their leaders for little longer but the said leader in BJP comes through party ranks working as a worker first scalng ladders.. Even then it;s no surity that u will become one unlike the great congrss or any other party except communist

[kumble_rocks]

Actually KR I dont have any issue with Saddam. The man was evil etc etc yes, but he was also the biggest supporter of India in ME(along with Yasser Arafat). The two of them were permanent pain in the rear for Pakistan and but for the two, specially Saddam, OIC would have been lot troublesome for India in 80s. xxx

Very True ,I have been trying to drive this point to DR in more than one occasion previously. He refuses to acknowledge this naked fact. Especially about Arafat who used to very friendly with India.Anyways , coming back to OP , one thing is certain , Modi's star is on the rise..

[Lurker]

There is no irony there they have earned their leadership riot working tirelessly. Ain;t imposed on party from outside .. Vajpayee started as simple worker of RSS so did Advani. I don't get this idea that they were always the leader.

Basically you are unable to understand the basic definition of cadre. In a cadre-based party there are roles. The person at the top is the leader and he is the voice of the party. Now if you are NOT the party leader you are not the voice of the party simple. BJP keeps yapping about cadre based party(this issue is important since it attacks Congress as a family party) but essentially it has always been Advani-Bajpayee party. Definitely so in last 30 odd years. There is no cadre following in BJP, quite defending it. xxx

[Guest dada_rocks]

Actually KR I dont have any issue with Saddam. The man was evil etc etc yes, but he was also the biggest supporter of India in ME(along with Yasser Arafat). The two of them were permanent pain in the rear for Pakistan and but for the two, specially Saddam, OIC would have been lot troublesome for India in 80s. xxx

:two_thumbs_up: We agree on something India first no morality-driven lecturing that should be the moto. About Arafat he basically was parasitewhat India cud gain from him India lost alot a freindship which wud have started long back could not materialize due to this pest Arafat.

[Guest dada_rocks]

Basically you are unable to understand the basic definition of cadre. In a cadre-based party there are roles. The person at the top is the leader and he is the voice of the party. Now if you are NOT the party leader you are not the voice of the party simple. BJP keeps yapping about cadre based party(this issue is important since it attacks Congress as a family party) but essentially it has always been Advani-Bajpayee party. Definitely so in last 30 odd years. There is no cadre following in BJP, quite defending it. xxx

Now what kid of role people will decide for whom is prerogative of the party.. it's like saying since so and so was minority/majority leader in senate hence he has the birth right to the next nomination for the party. BJP has always kept PM nominee leader of the party in parliament and presidnet of the party as three separate posts.. Now u want to dictate them how to run intra-party democracy. It's like saying only presidentialstyle american democray is democracy rest is not or saying westminister style british democracy is democracy rest is not.

[Lurker]

:two_thumbs_up: We agree on something India first no morality-driven lecturing that should be the moto. About Arafat he basically was parasitewhat India cud gain from him India lost alot a freindship which wud have started long back could not materialize due to this pest Arafat.

I have mentioned this before. Arafat was the person who alerted Indira Gandhi days before her assassination. This had prompted her to do that famous - Mere khoon ka ek ek katra - speech in Orissa two days before it actually happened. This was confirmed by her Secretary Sharada Prasad. In a different book(written by ex-Mossad) it was also mentioned how Arafat had come very close to getting to actual plan but before he got any closer Indira Gandhi was assasinated. That whole effort is worth gold for me as far as Arfat is concerned. India would have been very different had Indira Gandhi been alive. Heck even Vajpayee called Indira Durga during 1971 warfare. xxx

[Lurker]

Now what kid of role people will decide for whom is prerogative of the party.. it's like saying since so and so was minority/majority leader in senate hence he has the birth right to the next nomination for the party. BJP has always kept PM nominee leader of the party in parliament and presidnet of the party as three separate posts.. Now u want to dictate them how to run intra-party democracy. It's like saying only presidentialstyle american democray is democracy rest is not or saying westminister style british democracy is democracy rest is not.

Thats just hogwash is it not? My questio: In Gujrat is it Modi vs Congress/Communist/Independents or is it BJP/Rest? Chalo batao.

[Guest dada_rocks]

I have mentioned this before. Arafat was the person who alerted Indira Gandhi days before her assassination. This had prompted her to do that famous - Mere khoon ka ek ek katra - speech in Orissa two days before it actually happened. This was confirmed by her Secretary Sharada Prasad. In a different book(written by ex-Mossad) it was also mentioned how Arafat had come very close to getting to actual plan but before he got any closer Indira Gandhi was assasinated. That whole effort is worth gold for me as far as Arfat is concerned. India would have been very different had Indira Gandhi been alive. Heck even Vajpayee called Indira Durga during 1971 warfare. xxx

I consider this kind of he said she said **** and bull story U are talking like that sycophant Indira is India and India is Indira what was his name devkant Baruah.. of course u a none-congressi (tsk tsk:hysterical:) wud equate indira with india.. I have no fascination for Indira gandhi as such hence my question remains what has arafat done for India.. Indira gandhi 17 saal raaj ki how many more decades she needed.. had hoti hai fascination ki .. form a guy who expects NDA to cure all ills of India within 6 years still extending ropes to someone who got 17 years does sound weird... she was a mediocre lady occupying office by dint of her birth that's all..

[Guest dada_rocks]

Durga kahe vajpayeeji ya laxmi fact is just like her moron father who ketp chanting non-alignement keeping military in lurch suddenly one fine day without preparation drove india into war which was lost cause from day one wanted our army chief to jump inot action without due diligence many months before it actually happened in 71 .. Army chief put his foot down said no I am not going to repeat the mistake of 62 I need time u will get ur wish but not now...she was so adamant for immediate axtion that that army chief was about to resign over this issue . Army deserves laurel not this lady durga laxmi notwithstanding... anyway 17 years mein all she has got to show for is 71.. thanks but no she had outlived her utility as PM if there was any..

[Lurker]

I consider this kind of he said she said **** and bull story U are talking like that sycophant Indira is India and India is Indira what was his name devkant Baruah.. of course u a none-congressi (tsk tsk) wud equate indira with india..

Phir pagal ho gaya kya? Where did I equate Indira with India? Agar kiya hai to dikhao warna faltoo ka bakwaas nahin. As for you not beleiving in the story, feel free to be ignorant. I have mentioned those instances before and I have also suggested that take it with a grain of salt since I have read them from book and not some online media. So yes if you dont want to accept it feel free to reject it, why are you putting words in my mouth?

Indira gandhi 17 saal raaj ki how many more decades she needed.. had hoti hai fascination ki .. form a guy who expects NDA to cure all ills of India within 6 years still extending ropes to someone who got 17 years does sound weird... she was a mediocre lady occupying office by dint of her birth that's all..

Fascination ki hadh. Okay answer this for me please. Who said the following, "Indira is Durga".