First time u heard about politics and actually took interest

[kumble_rocks]

No need apologize saar ... just keep in mind that I never hold a grudge against anyone ... WTF will I get by doing that on a freakin MB ... ? If I held a grudge I wouldnt go around appreciating Lurks writing and agreeing with him on the staff forum. I know Iam a hard ass ... but a good one ... :(( Cheers ... :wink_smile:

Thanks mate ! :regular_smile:

[kumble_rocks]

no worries saar .. if proff gives you a hard time .. I got your back covered ... :wink_smile:

So what are you having now for drinks ? It's 1:21 pm in your time zone, right ?

[kumble_rocks]

Anyways ! I am crashing now ! Have a good night BB and Maris !

[Ram]

Hav a gud one KR !

[Guest HariSampath]

f@ck...Sriram, that got over too soon , I thought it would pan out a couple of more days at least...you broke it up before I could fan it a bit :((:tounge_smile:

[Guest HariSampath]

what the f@ck...can't we even have a lil ole hindutva -psec T20 slugfest on an MB ? wonder why BB got scared of psec's threats :giggle:

[Guest dada_rocks]

I wud lilke to know policy of this MB.. I am being awarded poitn fo infraction for sayign Muslim soldier left india in mass ISI moles comrpse of muslim population Terrorr -related incident is abated by these people. Apparently even this is not ON.. I woudl like to see the guidelines page obviously I don't trust certain mods who spring into action only when they find their psec-champions are gettin cornered.. So the unbiaased one splese show me the page I am getting stink of hotch-potch whatevr I think becomes the guideleines for the day from certain quarters..

[apocalypse]

has the results of the poll start coming in DR? I think NDTV was saying about 20 seats out of which BJP has got 11

[Lurker]

Tell me how many muslims in the army have won param vir cakra in combat or having performed the supreme sacrifice in combat against pakistan in 4 wars ?

I am pretty sure that you were joking when you mentiond "history books yada yada" Hari. No disrespect. Any Indian who has followed Indian Armed Force history knows about Abdul Hamid and his gallantry effort in 1965 that won his the PVC. You can look the details on the web, I dont want to do a cut and paste thingy here. 1 PVC out of 20 in Indian history still ranks very high(about 5%) than the overall %age of muslims in Indian army(less than 1%). heck many of Indians, including you, simply do not want them in Indian Armed Force. So what are you complaining about? Okay so you got 1 name. Now give me 1 name where a Muslim officer has conspired against Indian interest OR where a Muslim force has mutinied against India? Please give me concrete names or admit that you are in the wrong. This debate is frankly not that difficult to finish, provided your personal ego does not cloud your nationalistic judgement. xxx

[Guest HariSampath]

Lurks...I know about hamid...obviously, so no need to cut/paste anything, but I want to know how many muslims as a percent of their population ( 15 % unofficialy maybe more) are volunteering for armed forces, and also why are you advocating that Indian Highsecurity intelligence should not follow elementary security processes vis-a-vis muslims

[The Outsider]

Lurker, in addition to Param Veer Chakra information I also gave him, Kargil war martyr list and counted the number of Muslims for him in there :

Exact figures are not available for the percentage of Muslims in the Indian army, but estimates I read in an article are 3%. One Muslim has one a Param Veer Chakra, out of the 20 awarded which comes to 5% There is also a list of Kargil martyrs available here : http://www.angelfire.com/in2/kargil/ I eyeballed Muslim names and found 8 names in a list of around 150 names, which is again 5%. Both figures around twice as much as their representation in the army.

But am yet to get a reply.

[Guest HariSampath]

has the results of the poll start coming in DR? I think NDTV was saying about 20 seats out of which BJP has got 11

BJP is gonna win around 100+ and take the election

[Lurker]

Lurks...I know about hamid...obviously' date=' so no need to cut/paste anything, but I want to know [b']how many muslims as a percent of their population ( 15 % unofficialy maybe more) are volunteering for armed forces, and also why are you advocating that Indian Highsecurity intelligence should not follow elementary security processes vis-a-vis muslims

Hari, How do you know that Muslims are not volunteering for Armed Forces? What we do know is: 1) Their participation is discouraged. Many posters here, including you, have openly admitted to that. None of these people, including you, have been able to give one reason why it is such. 2) Their participation is looked down upon by many of the Armed Force Officer including a certain General who openly admitted Muslims loyalty to India was suspect. 3) Why would a Muslim join a nation's armed force knowing fully well he would NEVER reach to the top? Would you join a Bihari organization knowing only a Bihari will reach at the top and NEVER you in a million years? Lastly. Is their a method to your anti-Muslim-in-Indian Armed forces madness Hari? Look you can say "No I have no factual data" and we can end up this one or we can keep going circles even know you realize(even on a miniscule level) that I may be right on this one.

Exact figures are not available for the percentage of Muslims in the Indian army, but estimates I read in an article are 3%. One Muslim has one a Param Veer Chakra, out of the 20 awarded which comes to 5% There is also a list of Kargil martyrs available here : http://www.angelfire.com/in2/kargil/ I eyeballed Muslim names and found 8 names in a list of around 150 names, which is again 5%. Both figures around twice as much as their representation in the army.

Thanks for that Shwetabh. I think the actual Muslim %age is somewhere around 1-2%. As per Indian Defence Minister Mulayam Singh Yadav it is 1%. Yes that Kargil list should show some light to people who dislike Muslims in Indian Armed Forces. I would also like to mention another name here - Israr Khan. Most people would perhaps not know but I remember him vividly. During Operation Blue Star he and Brar were the chaps who commanded the entry into Golden temple. It was widely covered in the magazine Ravivar(Sunday) at the time and spoke greatly about the gallantry of Israr Khan. I fail to understand why a man who was willing to die for his country should be looked at suspicion just because Bangladeshis were entering India from bengal or whatever cr@p anti-Muslim dish out. xxx

[The Outsider]

Thanks for that Shwetabh. I think the actual Muslim %age is somewhere around 1-2%. As per Indian Defence Minister Mulayam Singh Yadav it is 1%. Yes that Kargil list should show some light to people who dislike Muslims in Indian Armed Forces.

I read in a pretty reputed journal article about that 3% figure. I have it stored on my now dead PC, so probably won't be able to recover it immediately. But will share it with you when I actually do recover it. It's a pretty damning sociological article on the treatment of Muslims backed by lots of interesting numbers.

[Lurker]

I read in a pretty reputed journal article about that 3% figure. I have it stored on my now dead PC' date=' so probably won't be able to recover it immediately. But will share it with you when I actually do recover it. It's a pretty damning sociological article on the treatment of Muslims backed by lots of interesting numbers.[/quote'] Ah okay. Please fwd me the article when you can find it. Should be an enlightening read. Like I mentioned to KR this thread has been one of those threads that has given many information that I did not know before.

[The Outsider]

From this link, looks like CNN-IBN also did some kind of a survey and puts it at around 3% http://indscribe.blogspot.com/2006/03/indian-armys-muslim-headcount-3-or.html Of course, the blog itself might be biased, as most blogs are but his quoting the numbers from CNN-IBN TV show, I would believe.

The figure was just 3% that comes around 29,000 in the million-strong army, according to CNN IBN news channel's programme Minority Report.

[Guest HariSampath]

wtf....if you are not aware of background profiling and probability factors in selecting personnel for key posts what can I do. AT LEAST answer this Q. If 3 eqaully qualified officers were shorltlisted for Sonia gandhi's personal security, and if one of them was a sikh in a Delhi college in 1984 ( Sikh riots), do you think it is unlikely for that particular candidate NOT to be considered, because of obvious security risks when compared to other 2 ?

[Ram]

I kinda agree with Hari on the issue of appointing men of certain communities/sections to guard VIPs as a part of inner security ring. After what happened to Indira, there is no way they are going to take any risks. And its just not religion alone. I sincerely doubt if any Tamil NSG would be a part of inner security cordon of the Gandhi family.

[Lurker]

From this link, looks like CNN-IBN also did some kind of a survey and puts it at around 3%

That number is correct. I remember running into number similar to 29,326 or something like that. It was the number that Armed Forces had given when asked about number of Muslim personnels but then quickly went back when the official stance became "No counting of soldiers based on Religious". What I am not sure of is the total strength of Indian Armed Forces. The article bases the 29,000 number against 1 million Indian Armed Force strength and comes with 3%. However if I am not mistaken Indian Armed active force strength is close to 1.5 million with half a million reserve. Which would bring down the %age. But yes that 29,000 number rings a bell. xxx

[The Outsider]

BTW, here is a nice account of how Kariappa was made to eat his words,

Given Maj.-Gen. Anis Ahmed Khan's move to Pakistan in these circumstances, it is not surprising that military became suspicious of Muslims, as articulated by no less than a former Commander-in-chief Gen. K.M. Cariappa. In an offensively titled diatribe published in Organiser, The mouthpiece of an extremist organization called Rashtrya Swayemsevak Sangh(RSS), Cariappa bluntly declared that Muslim "Loyalty seems to be primarily to Pakistan. This is a crime unpardonable. This is also the impression of a large percentage of non-Muslim intellectuals in India. Here is the root cause for there being a none-too-happy felling towards Muslims by a large percentage of the majority… This is understandable." Others may in fact have shared Cariappa's charge against Muslim, as the civil servant/historian G.D. Khosla reported rumors of Muslim infidelity to the nation floating in New Delhi about the same time. Fortunately for Muslims, Cariappa's fulmination was proven wrong not long after he wrote the piece for the RSS weekly. Raju Thomas, an india-born American academic who interviewed army officers, found that "when the [india-Pakistan] war began in September 1965, a Muslim majority battalion of the Rajput Regiment stationed in the crucial Poonch sector of Jammu and Kashmir, far from being hastily withdrawn, was allowed to play its part in the execution of the army's forward actions. According to several high-ranking Indian army officers, the fact that the battalion did not flinch and carried out its assigned role with considerable credit, sufficiently dispelled worry- at least within the military- about the loyalty of Indian Muslim soldiers." In the same war, two Muslim soldiers Havildar Abdul Hamid of the Grenadier Regiment and Maj. M.A.R. Sheikh received high military honours for gallantry, a pattern repeated in the 1971 war between the two countries over Bangladesh.

http://www.defenceindia.com/def_common/ethnic_group_recruitment.html