maggot_brain Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 Have any of you seen the recent effort from Michael Moore? Regardless of whether or not yo have, should the US have universal healthcare? I'd like to hear from anyone who has experiences of the healthcare system in the US. I know Moore is somewhat biased but some of the revelations in 'Sicko' were frankly, shocking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Outsider Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 The health care system in the US is abysmal. None, and absolutely none of the developed countries has such a pathetic health care system. There are lobbies in all industries but for the pharma industry to be hand in glove with politicians and government health care facilities is downright immoral. The entire system is responsible for the death of so many people and suffering of many others. Health insurance companies charge their monthly premiums based on the "risk" like they would charge for an auto driver or house owner. If you are in your 20s/30s and hardly need any benefits they'll charge you around $300-$400 per month for your regular coverage. If you are in your 60s/70s and actually need health benefits these premiums go up to $1500+ per month, increasing each time you use your coverage. That is still fine for these are private rates but the government's program is absolutely ineffective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kabira Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 abysmal health care system is only thing I did not like in USA and never wanted to grow older there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fineleg Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 US Healthcare system is seriously broken, and doesnt look like it will get fixed either :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggot_brain Posted December 22, 2007 Author Share Posted December 22, 2007 US Healthcare system is seriously broken' date=' and doesnt look like it will get fixed either :-([/quote'] That's what I thought. Strange isn't it? The US is the world's only superpower yet it has some of the highest rates of religious conviction in the developed world (some people actually believe god created the world in six days!) and practically the only non-universal healthcare system in the developed world too. It has its problems, but the NHS is great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhondy Posted December 22, 2007 Share Posted December 22, 2007 That's what I thought. Strange isn't it? The US is the world's only superpower yet it has some of the highest rates of religious conviction in the developed world (some people actually believe god created the world in six days!) and practically the only non-universal healthcare system in the developed world too. It has its problems, but the NHS is great! Would appreciate your views on the NHS, MB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brainfade Posted December 22, 2007 Share Posted December 22, 2007 That's what I thought. Strange isn't it? The US is the world's only superpower yet it has some of the highest rates of religious conviction in the developed world (some people actually believe god created the world in six days!) and practically the only non-universal healthcare system in the developed world too. It has its problems, but the NHS is great! Bottom line: A universal system like the NHS is OK for primary care, but does not do as well as the US system for specialized care. Mike Moore will not tell you this, of course. He will also not tell you that the "per capita spending in US is highest" argument is specious. Who is spending the money? It does not imply high govt spending or out-of-pocket spending. It implies high medical expenses, over 50% of which are reimbursements by insurance companies. He will never tell you that most US employers will pay group insurance premiums for their employees. And of course, he will not even let you sniff the fact that US cancer survival rates are the best in the world. And such care costs money. Read this: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/09/07/nhs07.xml Second, 47 million people not having health insurance is another Mike Moore red herring. A large number of those choose not to have it, but will spend on expensive cars, shoes and clothes (Anecdotal evidence - just the kind that Mike Moore made a film with). I chose to go without health insurance for a while because I was arrogant. But I was fortunate that nothing happened. I could easily have afforded the premium by making small sacrifices to my lifestyle. Third, the movie as well as other media outlets say the US has higher infant mortality rates than other developed countries. What they don't tell you is that the standard for "live" births is inconsistent. For example, the US counts any baby with a heartbeat as a "live birth." Other countries (Norway, Switzerland etc.) count only babies that meet certain length and weight criteria as a live-birth. When you account for that, it is all a wash. Of course, one cannot accuse Mike Moore of possessing the intellectual acumen to dig deep into the statistics for the real answer: http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA547ComparativeHealth.html They also say the life expectancy in the US is lower. Another specious, intellectually lazy argument: http://blogs.wsj.com/numbersguy/does-the-us-lead-in-life-expectancy-223/ See, it is easy for a film-maker to propagandize. Moore never claimed he was documenting "fact." We just assume it, and the damage is done. Finally, a universal (single-payer) healthcare system will result in higher taxes. I am not willing to shell out 45% of my income for a huge HMO that is run by bureaucrats (which is what NHS is, or any govt single payer insurance system in the US would be). Another poster said "elderly care is abysmal in the US." It may be true. But it is not like elderly care is not a crisis in other parts of the world, which have universal healthcare: http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2006/mar/26/longtermcare.politics The clinchers for me were these 4 unrelated anecdotes: (a) when my sister (an NHS doctor) asked me how come my daughter was already seeing a specialist pediatrician (2 days after she was born). To me, it is just an expectation that my baby will be seen by a specialist from day one - I expect more from my healthcare system (b) when my niece (the daughter of 2 NHS doctors) had to wait weeks for an allergy test; here, you can get it next week. In the US: © My colleague's daughter was diagnosed with leukemia. She was admitted to the hospital immediately, and put on chemotherapy within hours of diagnosis. She went into remission in 3 days, and was discharged. And we just have a low-cost teacher's insurance policy (d) A friend of mine (a grad student with a small University insurance plan) was diagnosed with testicular cancer. Went into outpatient surgery the next day. Out in a few hours - recuperating at home now. I would rather have my money in my pocket. I would rather pay out-of-pocket for primary care (you could negotiate with your doctor for good OOP charges), and have "catastrophic" insurance plans with high deductibles. I will not go to the doctor for every sneeze and sniffle. AS far as I am concerned, it comes down to this: do we want a system that delivers high quality care to most of its population, or one that delivers mediocre care to all its citizens? I'll go for the former. In other words, I'll take my chances in the US, thank you very much. This is not to say that there are no problems with the US system. There are, but the government (the biggest HMO behemoth of all) will only compound them. How is this for irony: "Germany, Sweden and Australia are now establishing free-market alternatives in an attempt to alleviate problems caused by their nationalized health care systems. Indeed, these countries are learning that the best course for provision of quality health care is not more patient power rather than more government power." From here: http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/medicarehealthinsurance/i/nathealthins_2.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gator Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 excellent post, cricaddict.... these are my views too... Michael Moore's Sicko can be misleading for people who have really not analysed the other side of the coin with the same depth tht he presents one side.... the bottom line is, i will not pay 5% more tax to support universal health care when the majority of those beneficiaries are going to be illegal immigrants.... Secondly, health care is one thing, where i would not settle for mediocrity and universal health care will bring the standard down... Michael Moore should get a canadian citizenship... he will then know, what happens when he needs to be treated for a case of piles... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fineleg Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 Michael Moore should get a canadian citizenship... he will then know, what happens when he needs to be treated for a case of piles... Genuine question...what would happen in Canada? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Outsider Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 It's exactly the above selfish line of reasoning which is behind the terrible health care system in the US. I am not a rich person, but won't mind shelling out an extra 5% so that universal and free health care is available to all, and such a basic amenity does not become a prerogative of the rich. There is more to life than a bigger house, faster car, and swankier restaurant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 the bottom line is, i will not pay 5% more tax to support universal health care when the majority of those beneficiaries are going to be illegal immigrants.... You do that already Gator. You just dont realize it. Look at it this way. Say I sold you my house for 250 K. I would tell you that you have to actually pay me 275 K, the delta(25 K) that I would need to cover litigation fees in case you are unhappy with the house and for whatever reason decide to sue me. Would you agree to paying extra 25K? No way. Try looking at the balanced sheet of a top Pharma company. You will see an Entry called - Sundry Expenses. This is the expenses that is borne by the company when it manufactures a lousy product and gets sued left right and center, paying for settlements etc. This Sundry Expense does NOT come out of the Profit incurred by the company. Why? Because that will bring the profit down(and hence less bonus for executives and less dividents for shareholders). It is put as an "Expense", a cost towards the Medicine. What this means is if you buy a X medicine you are paying a certain percentage towards the Expenses of the company. The same theory works with Insurance companies too. No matter how much New Orleans gets devastated or Florida or whatever, the Insurance companies have set themselves in such a way that they still make profits. Heck California, inspite of all those natural disasters, keeps getting new Insurance companies every few weeks. And all these scamsters pick money from your pocket when you are not looking. The problem with US health system has a lot to do with these Pharma companies and Insurance companies. If they stop looting people the health cost will come down drastically on their own. xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kumble_rocks Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 excellent post, cricaddict.... these are my views too... Michael Moore's Sicko can be misleading for people who have really not analysed the other side of the coin with the same depth tht he presents one side.... the bottom line is, i will not pay 5% more tax to support universal health care when the majority of those beneficiaries are going to be illegal immigrants.... Secondly, health care is one thing, where i would not settle for mediocrity and universal health care will bring the standard down... Michael Moore should get a canadian citizenship... he will then know, what happens when he needs to be treated for a case of piles... Gator , I think you are totally discounting one very important aspect .. which is health insurance is incumbent upon the fact that one has to be gainfully employed. Let's say if I lose a job and I have a pre-existing condition like cancer , COBRA would support me only for 18 months. After that I am on my own . No private insurance will cover you if you have a pre-existing condition like cancer , failing kidneys etc . Your only bet is to hope that you are gainfully employed by a large or a medium size company within the 18 months . Otherwise , you are doomed ..sad state of affairs that in one of the most developed and richest country , the concept of universal health care is absent. But , I can see your point too.. if you have a universal health care , the floodgates will open further for illegal immigration . I would not be surprised if the number of illegals coming in from Mexico shoot up by 200 % if universal health care becomes a reality in US. The special interests are driving up the cost .. you have the Pharma and insurance lobby supporting the Republicans and hence you will have obtuse laws like you can't buy cheaper drugs from Canada , Mexico etc . On the other hand , you have the trial lawyer lobby supporting Democrats which will not put a stop to frivolous law suits or implement the medical liability bill .. We need to have a balance on both sides .. the end result is anyway the same otherwise ...consumer getting screwed .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fineleg Posted December 25, 2007 Share Posted December 25, 2007 Illegal immigration has to be stopped or minimized to small levels. Without that, we are unable to make progress on many issues becos we fear illegal immigration will then increase! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky_lafanga Posted December 25, 2007 Share Posted December 25, 2007 he will then know' date=' what happens when he needs to be treated for a [b']case of piles... I know two desis who had severe piles and they got operated on few times thanks to NHS.They received excellent care as well. There goes your theory. NHS is not perfect but I would take it over US system any day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gator Posted December 27, 2007 Share Posted December 27, 2007 It's exactly the above selfish line of reasoning which is behind the terrible health care system in the US. I am not a rich person' date=' but won't mind shelling out an extra 5% so that universal and free health care is available to all, and such a basic amenity does not become a prerogative of the rich. There is more to life than a bigger house, faster car, and swankier restaurant.[/quote'] Firstly, ur post is communist and thankfully, i dont live in a communist country.... secondly, u r thinking from only ur perspective.... a single guy for whom it doesnt make much of a difference if he receives 28% or 33% of his gross income.... for people with families who can barely save 5% of their income for rainy day needs or child education or any emergency, it is all the money tht they will be robbed off.... for what? ideologically, ur post is all fine and dandy..... here is the true story in US and why majority of us are against universal health care.... we r already bearing the brunt and will take no more... 43 % of all Food Stamps issued are to illegal aliens. 41 % of all Unemployment Checks in the United States are to illegal aliens. 58 % of all Welfare payments in the United States are issued to illegal aliens. 62 % of all “undocumented immigrants†in the U.S. are working for cash and not paying taxes, predominantly illegal aliens working without a green card. 66 % OF all births in California are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal whose births were paid by taxpayers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gator Posted December 27, 2007 Share Posted December 27, 2007 I know two desis who had severe piles and they got operated on few times thanks to NHS.They received excellent care as well. There goes your theory. NHS is not perfect but I would take it over US system any day. u dont know squat about US health care... Secondly, congrats... u paid for those desis to have their azzes fixed up...thirdly, US taxes are much lower than what u r coughing up over there and if it makes u happy, i share it with u.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky_lafanga Posted December 27, 2007 Share Posted December 27, 2007 u dont know squat about US health care... Secondly' date=' congrats... u paid for those desis to have their azzes fixed up...thirdly, US taxes are much lower than what u r coughing up over there and if it makes u happy, i share it with u....[/quote'] I live in more than one county (moving around like a desi ninja) plus I don't mind paying for my friend's ass getting fixed :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggot_brain Posted December 27, 2007 Author Share Posted December 27, 2007 Firstly, ur post is communist and thankfully, i dont live in a communist country.... secondly, u r thinking from only ur perspective.... a single guy for whom it doesnt make much of a difference if he receives 28% or 33% of his gross income.... for people with families who can barely save 5% of their income for rainy day needs or child education or any emergency, it is all the money tht they will be robbed off.... for what? ideologically, ur post is all fine and dandy..... here is the true story in US and why majority of us are against universal health care.... we r already bearing the brunt and will take no more... 43 % of all Food Stamps issued are to illegal aliens. 41 % of all Unemployment Checks in the United States are to illegal aliens. 58 % of all Welfare payments in the United States are issued to illegal aliens. 62 % of all “undocumented immigrants†in the U.S. are working for cash and not paying taxes, predominantly illegal aliens working without a green card. 66 % OF all births in California are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal whose births were paid by taxpayers. Sources for these statistics? Plus there's so many 'illegal Mexicans' cos the US stole 1/3 of Mexico in the 19th Century. Manifest destiny and all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggot_brain Posted December 27, 2007 Author Share Posted December 27, 2007 Firstly, ur post is communist and thankfully, i dont live in a communist country.... secondly, u r thinking from only ur perspective.... a single guy for whom it doesnt make much of a difference if he receives 28% or 33% of his gross income.... for people with families who can barely save 5% of their income for rainy day needs or child education or any emergency, it is all the money tht they will be robbed off.... for what? ideologically, ur post is all fine and dandy..... here is the true story in US and why majority of us are against universal health care.... we r already bearing the brunt and will take no more... 43 % of all Food Stamps issued are to illegal aliens. 41 % of all Unemployment Checks in the United States are to illegal aliens. 58 % of all Welfare payments in the United States are issued to illegal aliens. 62 % of all “undocumented immigrants†in the U.S. are working for cash and not paying taxes, predominantly illegal aliens working without a green card. 66 % OF all births in California are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal whose births were paid by taxpayers. This is exactly the type of people Universal Healthcare is supposed to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gator Posted December 27, 2007 Share Posted December 27, 2007 This is exactly the type of people Universal Healthcare is supposed to help. huh? those are the people who will be paying insurance for everyone instead of their own families.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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