Two Nations, Two Choices (long)

[sandtest]

Then the question begs ' date=' is it fair to call it Islamic terrorism ? These guys are brain washed nut jobs who blow up even mosques like you pointed out.. surely [b']they do not represent Islam .. Would you agree ?

KR...now you are speaking like true Ummah member, batting for "peace" and "true" religion of Islam..reveal yourself, common :D. Just for info, to understand the dynamics of hatred among Islamists of Paki land your have to understand Islam in it's full and it's history. The various mosque attacks in Paki land are definately an act of Islamists, but not of the same "sects"...you have to understand that this great religion of "peace" after it's invention in 7th century in arabia and after Mo's death has been caught in division based on different ideologies. To start with, immediately, after Mo's death, the followers of Ali and Abu Bakr had a spat and a new sect was born with name "Shia". The main sect, Sunni accuses Shia as not being fully "Islamic" and their prayers procedure is not fully competent with "puritanic" way of prayer of Wahhabis. (Shia place some clay on the ground before prostrating". However, Shia's claim is exactly the same and they say that Sunni way of "Prayer" is NOT correct since Shia's are following the "Sunnah" i.e. the way the so called Prophet use to pray (they claim he use to keep clay on the ground). So based on these bothe sects accuse each other of "Bidah" --which means "invention" in their puritanic doctrine of Islam. This triggers the attack on each others Mosques as each sects claims that other is destroying the Islam's "pure" and "pious" ways and hence must be wiped out, since Mo himself has ordered them that anyone bringing "Bidah" in his new religion is a Kufr and needs to be punished. Same goes for Music etc. as the sects is further devided into, Twelever, sevener Shia's and Sufis, Qadiyanis etc. Qadiyanis have also sufferred a lot of oppression from mainstream Islamic zealots in Paki land :giggle: PS: Violence between Shia-Sunnis happens even in India, though at very limited level......visit Lucknow or Azamgarh in UP, sometimes during Moharram (Tazia procession) of Shias and some pelting happens with Sunnis. Though these days security is tight, hence less of such incidents in India. Btw...Mosque attacks in Paki land remind me that Moharram might be nearing.

[kumble_rocks]

KR...now you are speaking like true Ummah member, batting for "peace" and "true" religion of Islam..reveal yourself, common :D. Just for info, to understand the dynamics of hatred among Islamists of Paki land your have to understand Islam in it's full and it's history. The various mosque attacks in Paki land are definately an act of Islamists, but not of the same "sects"...you have to understand that this great religion of "peace" after it's invention in 7th century in arabia and after Mo's death has been caught in division based on different ideologies. To start with, immediately, after Mo's death, the followers of Ali and Abu Bakr had a spat and a new sect was born with name "Shia". The main sect, Sunni accuses Shia as not being fully "Islamic" and their prayers procedure is not fully competent with "puritanic" way of prayer of Wahhabis. (Shia place some clay on the ground before prostrating". However, Shia's claim is exactly the same and they say that Sunni way of "Prayer" is NOT correct since Shia's are following the "Sunnah" i.e. the way the so called Prophet use to pray (they claim he use to keep clay on the ground). So based on these bothe sects accuse each other of "Bidah" --which means "invention" in their puritanic doctrine of Islam. This triggers the attack on each others Mosques as each sects claims that other is destroying the Islam's "pure" and "pious" ways and hence must be wiped out, since Mo himself has ordered them that anyone bringing "Bidah" in his new religion is a Kufr and needs to be punished. Same goes for Music etc. as the sects is further devided into, Twelever, sevener Shia's and Sufis, Qadiyanis etc. Qadiyanis have also sufferred a lot of oppression from mainstream Islamic zealots in Paki land :giggle: PS: Violence between Shia-Sunnis happens even in India, though at very limited level......visit Lucknow or Azamgarh in UP, sometimes during Moharram (Tazia procession) of Shias and some pelting happens with Sunnis. Though these days security is tight, hence less of such incidents in India. Btw...Mosque attacks in Paki land remind me that Moharram might be nearing.

Thanks for educating me about Shia and Sunni sects Sandy , I don't know that they existed !:D

[Guest dada_rocks]

He keeps avoiding that question may be this simile will drive home some sense.. Imagine a Guru teaching a student warfare and also the edict of war i.e when/how/why to fight Later on student finds Guru to be a fair target as per the teaching of he got from the Guru .. Guru finding himself on the wrong side of the divide now claims I didn;t teach him to do this student steadfastly maintains that whatever he is doing is as per the teaching of guru..

[kumble_rocks]

He keeps avoiding that question may be this simile will drive home some sense.. Imagine a Guru teaching a student warfare and also the edict of war i.e when/how/why to fight Later on student finds Guru to be a fair target as per the teaching of he got from the Guru .. Guru finding himself on the wrong side of the divide now claims I didn;t teach him to do this student steadfastly maintains that whatever he is doing is as per the teaching of guru..

Huh ????????

[Lurker]

To start with, immediately, after Mo's death, the followers of Ali and Abu Bakr had a spat and a new sect was born with name "Shia". The main sect, Sunni accuses Shia as not being fully "Islamic" and their prayers procedure is not fully competent with "puritanic" way of prayer of Wahhabis. (Shia place some clay on the ground before prostrating". However, Shia's claim is exactly the same and they say that Sunni way of "Prayer" is NOT correct since Shia's are following the "Sunnah" i.e. the way the so called Prophet use to pray (they claim he use to keep clay on the ground). So based on these bothe sects accuse each other of "Bidah" --which means "invention" in their puritanic doctrine of Islam. This triggers the attack on each others Mosques as each sects claims that other is destroying the Islam's "pure" and "pious" ways and hence must be wiped out, since Mo himself has ordered them that anyone bringing "Bidah" in his new religion is a Kufr and needs to be punished. Same goes for Music etc. as the sects is further devided into, Twelever, sevener Shia's and Sufis, Qadiyanis etc. Qadiyanis have also sufferred a lot of oppression from mainstream Islamic zealots in Paki land :giggle: PS: Violence between Shia-Sunnis happens even in India, though at very limited level......visit Lucknow or Azamgarh in UP, sometimes during Moharram (Tazia procession) of Shias and some pelting happens with Sunnis. Though these days security is tight, hence less of such incidents in India. Btw...Mosque attacks in Paki land remind me that Moharram might be nearing.

Thats the worst form of Shia-Sunni difference that I have ever read, hardly surprising it comes from a staunch right wing Hindu. By the way what kind of a person refers Mohammed as Mo'?? Does it that long a time to write the whole word?? Or is it a case of disrespecting other religions to puff ones own ego?

[The Outsider]

Shwetabh, please acknowledge the receipt of my email. Further, let me know what you think of it and whether you agree with my assertions regarding India's per capita GDP being 40% higher than China in 1950. If you do then please graciously accept that you were wrong and edit the piece where you have accused me of "fabricating stuff". I am also disappointed to see CC1981 run away from the debate.

Yeah, got the mail. Haven't looked at in detail but the article does say China's GDP was lower than India's thought the power point file makes no reference to 1950 on the page number you pointed out.

[maggot_brain]

He keeps avoiding that question may be this simile will drive home some sense.. Imagine a Guru teaching a student warfare and also the edict of war i.e when/how/why to fight Later on student finds Guru to be a fair target as per the teaching of he got from the Guru .. Guru finding himself on the wrong side of the divide now claims I didn;t teach him to do this student steadfastly maintains that whatever he is doing is as per the teaching of guru..

not the only one is he?:haha:

[CC1981]

the fact that Chinese economy overtook India for the first time in the twentieth century ONLY in 1979.

That article then, lacks any credibility. I can quote you economic papers from some very reputable sources-sources effectively being authorities in this field- that will point out the fact that Chinese economy had been ahead of India's for MOST of the last 800 year period, with it standing near-equal/overtaking it briefly for some parts of the 400 years before the period mentioned. Ming Dynasty China, has already been proven to be the MOST powerful economic force in the world for much of its existence- where its GDP- net and in estimated per capita, as well as availability of public works, infrastructure and education far superseeded any other nation's on the planet. I seriously question your sources on this and i'd be grateful for an email too ( send to cyberkingdom@hotmail.com and specify the topic in the subject please- my spam filters are pretty strong).

History, truly, has been too kind on some.

LOL. I don't think that is a fair comment- it can be easily argued that China got whacked historically far harder than India did on average- its been ravaged periodically by the Mongols and the similar tribes to its north and west for the last 3000 years, not just comming to a sudden catastrophic decline in the last 1000 years.

[CC1981]

You still have not come up with any proof of "facts" you stated in your previous posts

LOL. Look, i am here for debate, where i expect intellectual integrity. I can't be arsed to go look for links and citations at every post i make. However, i've also made it clear that IF you require citation, always ask for it and thou shalt recieve. I give you, Angus maddison and his book The World Economy: A Millennial Perspective. If being head of OECD and one of the most renowned economists in the world is not case enough, i don't know what is. Btw, in his book, Dr. Maddison clearly draws the logical conclusion from all the data at hand for relative comparisons for world economies over the last 1000 years. It is also a fact that for much of that period, Chinese economy has been ahead of India's in EVERY-WHICH way: Total GDP, per capita GDP, access to education, publicworks and infrastructure. China's fall to the west (and eventually Japan) is fairly easy to understand- China was distinctly the latter place to have industrial revolution. On this i quote you 'Guns, Germs & Steel' by Jared Diamond where he very effectively argues the point.

You are so incapable of comprehending written words that you failed to understand what i meant by “history being kind on some”.

LOL. Funny to see someone try to diss a different interpretation of a similie, given what it is in the first place!

. I meant that notwithstanding Nehru's colossal failure to turn India's economic fortune for the better.....he is still being deified as a man who did no wrong

Nobody is deifying him and the ones claiming deification are often the very same who are hell-bent on demonizing him. Fact still remains, Nehruvian politics is one of the most precise and brilliant aspect of modern politics and most educational institutions in the west study Nehru as a point of reference for 'classic hallmark of brilliant politics' in certain scenarios.

which Amartya sen book you referred to

I've referred to Amartya Sen in numerous posts- drawing attention to several of his works. If you can point out to me just which quote or post you are after, i will clarify too.

[CC1981]

Where you falsely claimed and lied that he absolved Neruvian policies and squarely blamed some imaginary currency meltdown for India's economic ills.

Err no, i proved you wrong by quoting Angus Maddison and if you think it is some imaginary currency meltdown, then i am sorry to say, you are ill-qualified to continue this debate.

He relies on OECD stats in this book. Go to OECD website and check the stats. You'll wish you had not quoted this. Makes you look stupid.

No, what it does is blows your argument out of the water regarding China. As i said, it is quite categoric that China for the last 1000 years was not only ahead of India, but the preemminent economy in the world. Until late 1700s/early 1800s, no European economy had overtaken China's either and Chinese educational and public works remained cream of the world till mid 1800s.

[CC1981]

That you cannot argue on merits;

I quoted one of the foremost Economists in the world, who's served as the top guy to an extremely high profile economic organization as OECD. Your attempted 'proof' has been blown outta water.

1. That you never ever substantiate your “facts”

Sorry but yet another claim of yours blown outta water because i gave you precise substantiation to the Chinese economic situation on historic context- the premier work on it ( i quoted the book) as well as the primeir author on it (which i also quoted).

You proved no one wrong by quoting that book by maddison BUT YOURSELF

Err no, in the book (which i happen to own btw), Maddison categorically demonstrates the financial superiority of China over every other nation for most of the last 1000 years.

That book quoted by you DOES NOT talk about any currency meltdown you've LIED about in your previous posts.

Err nice try chump. You asked for me to substantiate my claim about Chinese economy being ahead of Indian economy for most of the last 1000 years- on THAT topic, i quoted Angus Maddison. As per your claim that Rupee's fall was due to external nations dumping it being a 'lie', kindly educate yourself better on the issue instead of calling others liars. Here is a basic understanding of the material ( scroll down to the tab 'international use'). I will provide you with Amartya Sen's article on this shortly. Stay tuned for your claims to be blown outta water YET AGAIN.

Now, my assertion was China's overall GDP overtook India's only in 1979

False. Again, learn English first mate- 'only in 1979' implies that it was a 'first time in history' incident- which it clearly was NOT as A.Maddison's book proves.

[sandtest]

Thats the worst form of Shia-Sunni difference that I have ever read' date=' hardly surprising it comes from a staunch right wing Hindu. [/quote'] Lurker babua irrespective of what you think, there are serious differences between Sunni-Shia sects and it's not limited till Mosques and method of prayer but also their reverence to Islamic Caliphate. Example being Sunnis reverance to Abu Bakr and Umar as Sahaba (companion of prophet) because they are so called "rightly guided Caliph", while Shia's say Abu Bakr and Uthman were usurpers and oppressors -- go figure!! If you perceive that it's coming from a "right wing" guy as you accused, go ahead and verify independently.

By the way what kind of a person refers Mohammed as Mo'??

Ouch! I forgot it might hurt your sentiments Lurker Mia :D So what's next everyone needs to put "PBUH" smiley everytime after name Mohammed to make sure that all Mohammeds rest in peace...:hysterical: but but, why in english, lets put it in Arabic directly like Pakis do to prove, they are more arabized than arabs themselves :giggle:

[Guest dada_rocks]

Be thankful he is not insisting on putting prefix Bharat Ratna every time u talk about certain Rajeev gandhi:hysterical:

[kumble_rocks]

Be thankful he is not insisting on putting prefix Bharat Ratna every time u talk about certain Rajeev gandhi:hysterical:

And should we be thankful that you are not insisting on putting prefix Mass Murderer every time somebody talks about certain Rajeev gandhi!!:hysterical:

[Guest dada_rocks]

I will do the honours don't worry I can't expect congressis to face that tuth:D

[kumble_rocks]

Don't forget the legal ramification part .. the line which you tend to use on other posters ..:D

[Guest dada_rocks]

Legal ramification u got to be kdding me, do u want me to pull out TOI articles expressing the same sentiment.. As is kosher to call NAMO names so is to call Rajeev Gandhi, had this been crime u wud have long been in jail. I am no associating him with SIMI or any banned organization you see..

[kumble_rocks]

Legal ramification u got to be kdding me, do u want me to pull out TOI articles expressing the same sentiment.. As is kosher to call NAMO names so is to call Rajeev Gandhi, had this been crime u wud have long been in jail. I am no associating him with SIMI or any banned organization you see..

:hysterical::hysterical: Are you even vaguely familiar with the concept of Libel .

[Lurker]

Lurker babua irrespective of what you think' date='[b'] there are serious differences between Sunni-Shia sects and it's not limited till Mosques and method of prayer but also their reverence to Islamic Caliphate.

Hilarious that a Hindu, a right wing Hindu at that, has the galls to talk about difference in sects in other religion. Let me see now. A Bihari Hindu prays the same way as a Kerela Hindu, is it not? Must be so, afterall a Bihari celebrates Chatth and a Keralite Hindu celebrates Pongal. Oh wait a minute they celebrate different rituals. That must be an aberration perhaps. Surely a Bengali Hindu celebrates Durga Puja and so must a Marathi Hindu..Err wait a minute Marathi manus would never have seen a Maa Durga statue and most likely celebrates Ganapati. But thats region based perhaps. Within the same state surely it is all the same. So Kayastha celebrate God Chitragupta and Bhumihars Parashuram!! Hilarious how a follower of a religion that changes every 10 miles, and has hundreds of Gods has issue with how another religion(that too a religion with twice the number of followers and tens of more countries) has difference in sect. Hilarious that a Hindu forgot what Tulsidas wrote famously in his Ramcharitmanas. Jaaki rahi Bhawna jaisi Prabhu murati Dekhi teen Taisi Yes yes a Hindu chauvinist is the one to talk about difference in sects. And yes I repeat your Shia-Sunni difference was very hollow with regards to any substance. If you want to debate it on the reason why the difference started(and no it had NOTHING to do with praying styles etc) then I would be interested to see exactly what you know from Abu-Bakr to Fatima al Zuhra.

So what's next everyone needs to put "PBUH" smiley everytime after name

Probably never hurt anyone to be polite but of course I wont expect you to be so. So yes feel free to not put a PBUH after Mohammed but the very least you can do as a half-decent man is to write the name in its entirety, Mohammed, if not Prophet Mohammed and not some 'Mo. xxx

[Guest dada_rocks]

:hysterical::hysterical: Are you even vaguely familiar with the concept of Libel .

Yes I do bthat's why i say if that has legal standing u alng with whole psec crowd wud have bene in jail by now.. moral of the story this lible has no leg.. heck the respected journalists wud have bene in jail.. When u buthcer 3000 people and tell ur police to sleep all the while u can't stop people from callin u mass-murderer.. Can't hide behind libel suit..