A Gift to all Rahul Dravid Haters

[Gambit]

I can do the exercise again if you want' date=' but I remember doing it for a good 50 matches before he became keeper and he was averaging 40+ and striking at 70+. How can such a batman's place be under threat?[/quote'] He averaged 38 against non minnows with an S/R of 69 between Apr 1999 and Apr 2002(when he took on wk duties full time). After he started keeping wickets, his ODI batting went to another level. I agree that although his S/R was low, ordinarily his place would not have been under threat but like I said, I remember reading something regarding this.

I would be interested in reading articles from that time ie. summer of 2002 where Dravid's spot was thought to be under the scanner if he did not take up wicket keeping.

To tell you the truth, a google search revealed nothing to bolster what I am saying but if I do find anything, I'll post it here.

[The Outsider]

Dravid's record for two years prior to taking up permanent keeping in 2002 :

Mat  	Inns  	NO  	Runs  	HS  	Ave  	BF  	SR  	100  	50  	0  	4s  	6s  	
unfiltered 	333 	308 	40 	10585 	153 	39.49 	14862 	71.22 	12 	81 	13 	930 	40 	Profile
filtered 	44 	40 	7 	1345 	85 	40.75 	1893 	71.05 	0 	11 	0 	111 	2 

I was off on the close to 75 SR figure, but honestly you cannot drop a batsman with those numbers given that no one in the middle order was better than him during that period.

[Gambit]

Here. I've found something on my HD.

Once Sachin Tendulkar and Virender Sehwag recover from their respective injuries and make their way back into the one-day side, two batsmen from the current team will have to be dropped. The selectors will go for soft options. Dinesh Mongia and Mohd Kaif could be asked to make way for them. But after seeing India's loss in the opening one-dayer, some serious questions need to be asked. Kaif perhaps is the fittest player in the team and some of his dives to save crucial runs in Faridabad were reminiscent of top rugby players going all out for the finish line. He batted fairly well to remain unbeaten with 38 runs and, going by that performance, he surely does not deserve to be dropped. Mongia batted responsibly with skipper Sourav Ganguly and gave India a sound start. He also struck the ball cleanly in the first 15 overs to reach the fence. He too does not deserve to be dropped. But a big question mark hangs over the role of Rahul Dravid in the one-day format. According to sources in the board, the selectors had decided to give the wicket-keeper's job for the one-dayers against Zimbabwe to Dravid. Such a move would enable them to play an extra batsman in the eleven and would also increase Dravid's utility in the one-day side. But coach John Wright decided against this before the match at Faridabad and Ajay Ratra donned the gloves. Ratra did a good job in the first one-dayer and if the selectors are really thinking about Dravid as a keeper for the one-dayers, they are being highly unfair to the Haryana gloveman. It does not require much analysis to recognize that Dravid finds it difficult to accelerate the scoring rate in the one-dayers. After groping, prodding at and wasting crucial deliveries, when he tries to go for the big shots, often he loses his wicket. His role in Tests is clearly defined and he plays his part well there. But in the one-dayers, he somehow looks out of place. Dravid has just returned from Johannesburg after receiving treatment for a shoulder injury and perhaps is still not at his fittest. Perhaps some more patience should be shown in his case. But with young talented players like Kaif,Mongia and Yuvraj Singh around, perhaps Dravid should be left to concentrate solely on Test match cricket. If the selectors are thinking about giving Dravid the wicket-keeping gloves for the World Cup next year,they also need to spell out to him the need for quick runs in the shorter version of the game.

- From HT

[The Outsider]

He averaged 38 against non minnows with an S/R of 69 between Apr 1999 and Apr 2002(when he took on wk duties full time). After he started keeping wickets, his ODI batting went to another level. I agree that although his S/R was low, ordinarily his place would not have been under threat but like I said, I remember reading something regarding this.

Fine, you want to go down the non minnows route which bring his numbers down marginally as is the case with every batsman Tendulkar or Ganguly included. Even so, who was a better middle order batsman than Dravid in the Indian team for his place to be under threat. I don't remember reading anything about all this when it actually happened. It was during the last phase of Ganguly's captaincy when people were trying to glorify each and every aspect of Ganguly that this myth was born and has unfortunately rooted itself even in a lot of balanced fans. Typical case of rewriting history by the likes of Jacka$$ and The Telegraph.

[Gambit]

So according to that, speculation had it that selectors and maybe the TM were seriously evaluating Dravid's utility to the side given his

[Gambit]

Fine' date=' you want to go down the non minnows route which bring his numbers down marginally as is the case with every batsman Tendulkar or Ganguly included. Even so, who was a better middle order batsman than Dravid in the Indian team for his place to be under threat. I don't remember reading anything about all this when it actually happened. It was during the last phase of Ganguly's captaincy when people were trying to glorify each and every aspect of Ganguly that this myth was born and has unfortunately rooted itself even in a lot of balanced fans. Typical case of rewriting history by the likes of Jacka$$ and The Telegraph.[/quote'] Check the article from HT which is circa 2002.

[The Outsider]

Come on, Gambit. Journalism from no names in HT and TOI can hardly be considered indicative of the truth. Do you remember the amount of crap these guys dished out when Tendulkar was going through a lean phase? All the stories about a senior mafia etc. etc. That the writer considers Mongia a better player than Dravid tells me all about him.

[The Outsider]

Moreover, in the article there is no mention of even the usual gossip feeding lines like "one of the selectors under anonymity said", or "sources close to team management said". It's only the author's ill formed opinion. Remember, during that very phase Yuvraj was given the chop before Dravid giving an indication of where he was in the pecking order as far as selectors and team management were concerned.

[Gambit]

Come on' date=' Gambit. Journalism from no names in HT and TOI can hardly be considered indicative of the truth. Do you remember the amount of crap these guys dished out when Tendulkar was going through a lean phase? All the stories about a senior mafia etc. etc. That the writer considers Mongia a better player than Dravid tells me all about him.[/quote'] People buy the stories they believe in. Don't you remember how many here labelled SRT a mafia don after WC 2007? :giggle: And there were a few more stories during that time alluding this(Dravid w/k). Me and several others bought it. Maybe it's the truth, maybe it isn't. As I said earlier, it's speculation. Me or you don't know what actually happened. Which is what I said in my first post. A case for being selfish or unselfish can be made quite easily depending on how you interpret the speculation.

[The Outsider]

And there were a few more stories during that time alluding this(Dravid w/k). Me and several others bought it. Maybe it's the truth, maybe it isn't. As I said earlier, it's speculation. Me or you don't know what actually happened. Which is what I said in my first post. A case for being selfish or unselfish can be made quite easily depending on how you interpret the speculation.

Ok, you might consider is speculation but to me, even if there were some sporadic stories about it, there was no more truth to it than the Tendulkar mafia stories. Do you consider those to be speculation as well or just outright lies? Given that Dravid was competing with the likes of an inconsistent Yuvraj(who was dropped a few months earlier), a no talent player like Mongia, a newbie like Kaif, not to mention the likes of Badani and Kanitkar for a spot in the middle order, it's a straightforward cricket analysis for me that his spot was not under threat with an average of 40+ and a SR of 70+ to back him up.

[Lurker]

If you really want unselfish' date= look no further than Leander. He played Davis Cup matches in the 90s for free i.e. he charged no money for representing India.

Not fair. :sad_smile::sad_smile: Leander Paes is sabka baap when it comes to playing unselfishly for India. The day these overpaid cricketer will achieve 50% of what Paes did I will call them unselfish. The greatest tragedy of Indian sports remains Bhupathy-Paes split in early 2000s. Had it not been such India would have won atleast a couple of Olympic Golds :((:((

[Gambit]

Not fair. :sad_smile::sad_smile: Leander Paes is sabka baap when it comes to playing unselfishly for India. The day these overpaid cricketer will achieve 50% of what Paes did I will call them unselfish. The greatest tragedy of Indian sports remains Bhupathy-Paes split in early 2000s. Had it not been such India would have won atleast a couple of Olympic Golds :((:((

He is easily my favourite Indian sports person. The Indian express have teamed up for Beijing but don't think they can go far given how little they have practiced in the last few years.

[Guest HariSampath]

Hari Bhai ur beating around the bushes .... earlier u never regarded RD even as an average batsman in ODI or test , This is what ur posts tell me.When we gave u the stats now u have shifted to other gear,u even don't have stats to disprove RD's ability. Still ur views hardly matters... people sitting on hot seat knows a couple of things more than u do.

I had never said about Dravid in tests , I had always been saying that he should not be playing ODIs and should be dropped because last 2 series he has been a complete failure. He has been dropped, and so people sitting in the hot seat do seem to know, and the man who matters, Dhoni, has clearly expressed that he doesnt want Dravid in ODIs and Ganguly too.

[talksport]

How exactly is Leander unselfish.... He split with Bhupati ,Didnt he I hold it against both...Which ultimately costed India and them a lot. Playing David Cup and Olympics is the least they can do, you are not sacrificing anything.

[The Outsider]

Selfish/unselfish is a meaningless debate in the end. It depends on how one wants to define selfish. When Dravid was captain he opened the innings, some can say he was being selfless by accommodating other players in the middle orders while others can argue that he was being selfish because as captain he wanted to win the match. It's just a matter of perspective.

[Guest HariSampath]

It is a publicly known matter that Dravid was asked to keep wickets so that he may add value to the side. His dislike for the ODI format was a matter of record and he had always been at the 67 or 69 strike rate. In fact he started playing better in ODIs after being asked to keep wkts and play lower in the order. The move was necessitated by two factors : there were several experiments with 'keepers at that point, Ratra, Dasgupta et al, and simultaneously Dravid too was not forcing the pace as much and could have been in danger of losing his ODI place. Instead the selectors converted the problem of his place as an opportunity ,and made him a "keeper batsman in ODIs and could have an additional batter. Dravid actually did lots better after his place in the side became assured as a result of his 'keeping.

[Guest HariSampath]

^ There had been comments and articles written that Dravid was indeed asked to 'keep wkts in order to be in the side, I dont remember by whom, but it was certainly written often enough back then and I believe it

[Guest HariSampath]

Ok' date=' you might consider is speculation but to me, [b']even if there were some sporadic stories about it, there was no more truth to it than the Tendulkar mafia stories. Do you consider those to be speculation as well or just outright lies?

What makes you think that all stories of the "Tendulkar mafia" variety are false. Although I am a great admirer of sachin tendulkar, I had always felt that his commercial/contractual/money interests were a big influence on most of his cricket decisions, and I had also believed and still do that the big 3 gang of Indian cricket had held cricket to ransom for years and were responsible for sticking on to the team despite failures and less than impressive performances, and were definitely responsible for keeping out other younger players. All this has only now changed slightly with the advent of Dhoni.

[bharat297]

I had never said about Dravid in tests ' date=' I had always been saying that he should not be playing ODIs and should be dropped because last 2 series he has been a complete failure. He has been dropped, and so people sitting in the hot seat do seem to know, and the man who matters, Dhoni, has clearly expressed that he doesnt want Dravid in ODIs and Ganguly too.[/quote'] Really ... it was just his last series before being dropped that was a complete failure. In England he averaged about 37, at a strike rate of 97, and played a couple of matchwinning or lone-soldier knocks. Before that he had a strong series vs SAF and Bangladesh, and in the must win game in the world cup, he was the only one (along with Viru) that did their part. So 1 bad series and he was dropped.

Selfish/unselfish is a meaningless debate in the end. It depends on how one wants to define selfish. When Dravid was captain he opened the innings, some can say he was being selfless by accommodating other players in the middle orders while others can argue that he was being selfish because as captain he wanted to win the match. It's just a matter of perspective.

Well, the thing was Dravid opened at a time when the middle order was filled with people who definitely did not want to open. Sachin, Laxman, and Yuvraj have all publicly said they dont wan't to open. Sehwag, although he did open, does prefer to bat middle order. Ganguly is unlikely to open. So Dravid had to open.

Again self interest. Regarding opening in OZ, Kumble after day 1 of the MCG test that RD was going to open because he didn't have a choice almost alluding that had he said no, he would have been dropped. Again self interest because he didn't want to be out of the team.

Explain to me how that is selfishness ... "Id rather not be dropped than be dropped therefore I am selfish" ... OK that makes sense ... :giggle: For a player that has been our best no.3 batsman of all time, and along with Ponting and Bradman, the best no.3 batsman of all time, to give up that preferred no.3 spot to accomodate a youngster (after just 1 big innings) is a big sacrifice.

[yoda]

bharat, stop it. that is way too many facts for one post. :D