Top 10 Matchwinners for India with the bat

[Kartikey]

http://stats.cricinfo.com/statsguru/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=batting_average;qualmin1=1000;qualval1=runs;result=1;team=6;template=results;type=batting

[Sachinism]

tendulkar 3rd in the list but wait for the sachin haters to come out and find excuses to put him down

[Zap_Brannigan]

crap list......Define match winning knock? Infact ,some of the finest innings i've seen have come in losing causes. A team has 11 players. Even if a batsmen gets 300 chasing 400, its not a match winning knock if the rest make only 90?

[Temujin Khaghan]

Vishy and Vengsarkar contributed better in indian victories than Gavaskar? naah look at the difference, little. Rahul_is my god, no wonder rahul is your god :). well done, good table.

[Kartikey]

Vishy and Vengsarkar contributed better in indian victories than Gavaskar? naah look at the difference, little. Rahul_is my god, no wonder rahul is your god :). well done, good table.

Not Literally.

[yoda]

A better stat would be to look at performance in matches with results, won or lost. Typically those are played on pitches with some help to bowlers.

[Ram]

There's no doubt, atleast in my mind that Rahul Dravid is our best ever test batsman. He is slightly above Sachin and far far over Gavaskar. Like Kumble, he is the silent star, an indispensable cog in the wheel that may appear expendable, but is utterly important.

[CSK Fan]

There's no doubt, atleast in my mind that Rahul Dravid is our best ever test batsman. He is slightly above Sachin and far far over Gavaskar. Like Kumble, he is the silent star, an indispensable cog in the wheel that may appear expendable, but is utterly important.

IMO Dravid is slightly over-rated in tests, particlualrly his contribution in matches India won. He is like the sidekick to a popular hero in movies. He helps the guy but the dirty work is done by the hero. Look at this, he has been involved in 79 100 partnerships, the most by any player in tests. Now do you really tell me that out of those, in a good many, he was the dominant partner? He is like a catalyst, who might bring out the best out of another good player without being good himself. He always has another guy like Sachin, Laxman, Sehwag to do most of the dirty work, to take the pressure off him. Very seldom have I seen him succeed singlehandedly, when the others have gone down. For ex, if India had gone on to win this game, it would have solely been because of Sehwag but Dravid , somewhat unfairly, would have added to his winning average. Also the opening ranking is ridiculous as its based just on average. Sidhu has only won 31 matches compared to Sachin's 46, yet he is above Sachin as a better match-winner!

[Ram]

IMO Dravid is slightly over-rated in tests, particlualrly his contribution in matches India won. He is like the sidekick to a popular hero in movies. He helps the guy but the dirty work is done by the hero. Look at this, he has been involved in 79 100 partnerships, the most by any player in tests. Now do you really tell me that out of those, in a good many, he was the dominant partner? He is like a catalyst, who might bring out the best out of another good player without being good himself. He always has another guy like Sachin, Laxman, Sehwag to do most of the dirty work, to take the pressure off him. Very seldom have I seen him succeed singlehandedly, when the others have gone down. For ex, if India had gone on to win this game, it would have solely been because of Sehwag but Dravid , somewhat unfairly, would have added to his winning average. Also the opening ranking is ridiculous as its based just on average. Sidhu has only won 31 matches compared to Sachin's 46, yet he is above Sachin as a better match-winner!

But why would he have to be the dominant player to qualify for 'greatness' ? IMO, I would rate a player on how often he has delivered when the team needs it and in how many victories he played a substantial part. Dravid scores over most Indian batsman in this category. And I think you are being very unfair in saying Rahul merely stays around as others score around him.

[CSK Fan]

But why would he have to be the dominant player to qualify for 'greatness' ? IMO, I would rate a player on how often he has delivered when the team needs it and in how many victories he played a substantial part. Dravid scores over most Indian batsman in this category. And I think you are being very unfair in saying Rahul merely stays around as others score around him.

I will say he makes better use of a dominating partner than most. I am yet to see more than a few knocks where he actually single-handedly rescued the team from trouble. Its only when another player has already started playing well that he plays a supporting role. So you are rihgt, he is a great player and has been great for the country but I still wont put him above Sachin.

[graphic23]

I would definitely put him above Sachin in winning/saving matches for us in the past 6-7 years. I would like to clarify that I have nothing against Sachin. Last night when he got out for 0 I turned off my computer and did not sleep properly. I didn't sleep well when Ian Chappell wrote that infamous article asking Sachin to retire, and I was cursing Chappell for a long long time. I am a die-hard fan of Sachin and will remain so and he's my most favorite batsman ever. Now that I have clarified that, what is unfortunate with regards to Sachin winning matches for us is that in his prime destructive form (1994-2001?), India was at its worst as a team. He was the only shining light for us, and when the other teams have 11 players with 7 batsman, we had 1 batsman trying to save the game for us and to his credit, he got close several times. But we ended up drawing and losing most of the times. This is definitely not a direct reflection to his commitment and effort, because some of this innings deserve so much more respect in history than they have right now. With Dravid on the other hand, he's not as attacking or flamboyant as Sachin is, and he can stay at the crease looking very ugly for long periods of time. Literally, the quote "Rahul is a player who will walk on broken glass if his team tells him to" definitely makes sense. He doesn't care what his strike rate is as long as partnerships are being built, and he can make sure that the game is safe. If we won our first test series in WI in nearly 25 years, the credit solely goes to him (both Ganguly & Sachin were not in the squad. Sachin was injured, IIRC). There were so many more innings where he won the test matches for us or he directly saved it for us. To belittle his contributions (such as the 153 he scored in 153 balls when Sachin made 186* against NZ in 1998-99 or his 180 when Laxman's epic 281 was made or even when he made 160+* runs when Sehwag hit that 254 (250) against Pakistan) is not what Dravid deserves. He has been the backbone of the team, and true to that analogy, we've never seen him in the limelight. When Sachin made 99 against England with a strike rate in the 90s or 100s, Dravid hit 92* from 63 balls and sure that shows that he has all the armory with him to score in possible manner. With regards to the innings yesterday (111 from 290+ balls), the partnership between Sehwag and Dravid was going on at a run rate of 4.81, which is amazing for a test match. We might say it would've been higher had Sachin or Dhoni been at the crease. We saw later what happened when those two respective gentlemen came to the crease. It is hard to match Viru in strokeplay and perhaps thats why we were getting carried away with our criticisms (I say "we" because I also was a part of this). Even Sachin couldn't match him when he made the 309. With Dravid blocking one end, a big score was always on the cards. He could've done a bit more had he been in his prolific form (as he has consistently maintained from 2001-2006/07). We saw how the other batsmen handled losing Viru, Sachin, and Dravid quickly. So let us give him the credit he truly deserves, and "technically" 100 in 273 balls is not too bad for a test match( :P ). I thought he was coming back to his form at the end of his innings, and for India to win more test matches in the next 2-3 years (at the end of which our batting legends will retire), we need Dravid to be in awesome form. His determination, grit, and commitment to his team is unmatched, and if we had 11 Dravid like people playing for India, we would've been #1 a long time ago. This is not to say it is not possible with others but Dravid is the team man in the truest sense. I refuse to believe that he took so long to make 80 was so he could reach 10,000 runs; thats just utter nonsense. Let us enjoy his batting and let us hope he enjoys his batting, and start contributing to the net-runrate next time he bats with Sachin or Sehwag. Edit: I realized after I posted this that it looks like I consider Dravid to be perfect. I was merely highlighting his positive aspects. There are flaws in every human, and Dravid is no exception. I felt he could have been a better captain in taking innovative decisions but perhaps as someone else pointed out, he shouldn't have been even given captaincy because of its effect on him now. But that will always be debated.

[CSK Fan]

I would definitely put him above Sachin in winning/saving matches for us in the past 6-7 years. I would like to clarify that I have nothing against Sachin. Last night when he got out for 0 I turned off my computer and did not sleep properly. I didn't sleep well when Ian Chappell wrote that infamous article asking Sachin to retire, and I was cursing Chappell for a long long time. I am a die-hard fan of Sachin and will remain so and he's my most favorite batsman ever. Now that I have clarified that, what is unfortunate with regards to Sachin winning matches for us is that in his prime destructive form (1994-2001?), India was at its worst as a team. He was the only shining light for us, and when the other teams have 11 players with 7 batsman, we had 1 batsman trying to save the game for us and to his credit, he got close several times. But we ended up drawing and losing most of the times. This is definitely not a direct reflection to his commitment and effort, because some of this innings deserve so much more respect in history than they have right now. With Dravid on the other hand, he's not as attacking or flamboyant as Sachin is, and he can stay at the crease looking very ugly for long periods of time. Literally, the quote "Rahul is a player who will walk on broken glass if his team tells him to" definitely makes sense. He doesn't care what his strike rate is as long as partnerships are being built, and he can make sure that the game is safe. If we won our first test series in WI in nearly 25 years, the credit solely goes to him (both Ganguly & Sachin were not in the squad. Sachin was injured, IIRC). There were so many more innings where he won the test matches for us or he directly saved it for us. To belittle his contributions (such as the 153 he scored in 153 balls when Sachin made 186* against NZ in 1998-99 or his 180 when Laxman's epic 281 was made or even when he made 160+* runs when Sehwag hit that 254 (250) against Pakistan) is not what Dravid deserves. He has been the backbone of the team, and true to that analogy, we've never seen him in the limelight. When Sachin made 99 against England with a strike rate in the 90s or 100s, Dravid hit 92* from 63 balls and sure that shows that he has all the armory with him to score in possible manner. With regards to the innings yesterday (111 from 290+ balls), the partnership between Sehwag and Dravid was going on at a run rate of 4.81, which is amazing for a test match. We might say it would've been higher had Sachin or Dhoni been at the crease. We saw later what happened when those two respective gentlemen came to the crease. It is hard to match Viru in strokeplay and perhaps thats why we were getting carried away with our criticisms (I say "we" because I also was a part of this). Even Sachin couldn't match him when he made the 309. With Dravid blocking one end, a big score was always on the cards. He could've done a bit more had he been in his prolific form (as he has consistently maintained from 2001-2006/07). We saw how the other batsmen handled losing Viru, Sachin, and Dravid quickly. So let us give him the credit he truly deserves, and "technically" 100 in 273 balls is not too bad for a test match( :P ). I thought he was coming back to his form at the end of his innings, and for India to win more test matches in the next 2-3 years (at the end of which our batting legends will retire), we need Dravid to be in awesome form. His determination, grit, and commitment to his team is unmatched, and if we had 11 Dravid like people playing for India, we would've been #1 a long time ago. This is not to say it is not possible with others but Dravid is the team man in the truest sense. I refuse to believe that he took so long to make 80 was so he could reach 10,000 runs; thats just utter nonsense. Let us enjoy his batting and let us hope he enjoys his batting, and start contributing to the net-runrate next time he bats with Sachin or Sehwag.

All you have said is true but the very facts that he needs someone to outscore him in a prtnership most times and very seldom has he singlehandedly saved the team when there was no one to form a partnership would prevent me from putting him above Sachin though I wouldnt belittle his contributions either. You are right about Sachin's pre 95s contribution but lately, with a better team, he has been averaging more in wins than Dravid

[graphic23]

All you have said is true but the very facts that he needs someone to outscore him in a prtnership most times and very seldom has he singlehandedly saved the team when there was no one to form a partnership would prevent me from putting him above Sachin though I wouldnt belittle his contributions either. You are right about Sachin's pre 95s contribution but lately, with a better team, he has been averaging more in wins than Dravid

While I agree with the point you make about someone outscoring him (or in most cases, out pacing him in scoring), I think batting in cricket should be more about partnerships and increasing the team total rather than considering individual contributions to the team. The 268 run partnership with Sehwag 2 days ago highlights his contribution more than his 111 off the 290+ balls. When there is no one there to form a partnership, I think Dravid can score by himself (as he did near the end of his 233 in Adelaide 4 years ago) but generally, he is the guy you can rely on building partnerships. With regards to Sachin's higher average in matches won lately, perhaps it is because Dravid has been struggling with his form. That is not an excuse but rather a possible way to interpret that fact. Also, it helps that Sachin is/was in terrific form lately. His duels with Brett Lee and Hogg will be remembered forever I think.

[CSK Fan]

While I agree with the point you make about someone outscoring him (or in most cases, out pacing him in scoring), I think batting in cricket should be more about partnerships and increasing the team total rather than considering individual contributions to the team. The 268 run partnership with Sehwag 2 days ago highlights his contribution more than his 111 off the 290+ balls. When there is no one there to form a partnership, I think Dravid can score by himself (as he did near the end of his 233 in Adelaide 4 years ago) but generally, he is the guy you can rely on building partnerships. With regards to Sachin's higher average in matches won lately, perhaps it is because Dravid has been struggling with his form. That is not an excuse but rather a possible way to interpret that fact. Also, it helps that Sachin is/was in terrific form lately. His duels with Brett Lee and Hogg will be remembered forever I think.

Ok, lets compare since Dravid started his career. Dravid has been in 38 matches India won with an average of 73 Sachin has been in 46 won matches (yes, all his won matches were post 96!) with an average of 63 So in the same period Sachin has won us more matcehs so how can Dravid be a better match-winner? Just debating and not arguing as I like both so doesnt make a diff. who wins here :D

[graphic23]

Ok, lets compare since Dravid started his career. Dravid has been in 38 matches India won with an average of 73 Sachin has been in 46 won matches (yes, all his won matches were post 96!) with an average of 63 So in the same period Sachin has won us more matcehs so how can Dravid be a better match-winner? Just debating and not arguing as I like both so doesnt make a diff. who wins here :D

I think its very hard to choose who is a better match winner. I am not completely sure on how to interpret that fact that you mentioned so I am not sure my argument has any validity. I say that because perhaps both of them were the reason why we won the match (as in Perth). Also I am not sure whether the statement "Sachin has won us more matches" using that fact is correct because just because he is involved in more wins doesn't mean he won the matches for us. Does it also depend upon the average of the player in the matches won (where Dravid averages 10 more runs per match/innings than Sachin)? (Also I am also debating, not arguing. I am enjoying the conversation as well because ultimately its India who wins). If you have any input on an algorithm we could use to determine the match-winner, I'd be more than willing to concede that you have a better point. I am not quite sure how one would do that however.

[DomainK]

For me, the obvious difference between Dravid and Tendulkar lies in the abilities of playing in different circumstances. Sachin can play in any circumstances, Dravid can not. Dravid can help build partnerships in a crisis time, but when the situation demands aggression, Dravid is not of much use. To give you an example, if the opposition captain sets a good field and the bowlers bowl to the field, Dravid will keep playing to the fielders allowing the scoring rate to drop drastically and letting pressure mount. He would not try to scatter the field. Sachin, however, would loft over the infield, would hit sixes above the slip cordon, would pedal sweep and play shots to force the captain to scatter the field and make scoring easy. Sachin has a mush greater range of strokes, can play according to the situation as it demand, can dictate things to the opposition as well as play a slow innings if needed. Dravid on the other hand is a hard working cricketer who can play certain roles very well, can not play other roles well at all.

[cochise]

Yep. Dravid has difficulty switching gears. That has to be acknowledged.

[CSK Fan]

I think its very hard to choose who is a better match winner. I am not completely sure on how to interpret that fact that you mentioned so I am not sure my argument has any validity. I say that because perhaps both of them were the reason why we won the match (as in Perth). Also I am not sure whether the statement "Sachin has won us more matches" using that fact is correct because just because he is involved in more wins doesn't mean he won the matches for us. Does it also depend upon the average of the player in the matches won (where Dravid averages 10 more runs per match/innings than Sachin)? (Also I am also debating, not arguing. I am enjoying the conversation as well because ultimately its India who wins). If you have any input on an algorithm we could use to determine the match-winner, I'd be more than willing to concede that you have a better point. I am not quite sure how one would do that however.

Hmm i noticed that my argument might be flawed. Dravid might have just missed soem amtches Sachin played. Give me some time to get what you asked for!

[Brainfade]

IMO Dravid is slightly over-rated in tests' date=' particlualrly his contribution in matches India won. He is like the sidekick to a popular hero in movies. He helps the guy but the dirty work is done by the hero. Look at this, he has been involved in 79 100 partnerships, the most by any player in tests. Now do you really tell me that out of those, in a good many, he was the dominant partner? He is like a catalyst, who might bring out the best out of another good player without being good himself. He always has another guy like Sachin, Laxman, Sehwag to do most of the dirty work, to take the pressure off him. Very seldom have I seen him succeed singlehandedly, when the others have gone down. For ex, if India had gone on to win this game, it would have solely been because of Sehwag but Dravid , somewhat unfairly, would have added to his winning average.[/quote'] On the other hand, one could argue that the "main men" were able to take a carefree approach knowing that the guy (Dravid) at the other end will not give up his wicket under any circumstance. In this match, if Dravid had left cheaply, Sehwag may not have had the liberty to do what he did. I would go as much as to say that Dravid's contributions in such situations are under-rated, not over-rated. Moreover, it has to acknowledged that the man is not in the best of form. If one of the others were out-of-form, would they still be able to stick around, grind it out and provide much needed stability? Doubtful.

Also the opening ranking is ridiculous as its based just on average. Sidhu has only won 31 matches compared to Sachin's 46, yet he is above Sachin as a better match-winner!

Am not sure it is a "ranking" as much as a document sorted by average in matches won.

[CSK Fan]

On the other hand, one could argue that the "main men" were able to take a carefree approach knowing that the guy (Dravid) at the other end will not give up his wicket under any circumstance. In this match, if Dravid had left cheaply, Sehwag may not have had the liberty to do what he did. I would go as much as to say that Dravid's contributions in such situations are under-rated, not over-rated. Moreover, it has to acknowledged that the man is not in the best of form. If one of the others were out-of-form, would they still be able to stick around, grind it out and provide much needed stability? Doubtful. Am not sure it is a "ranking" as much as a document sorted by average in matches won.

you are right about Dravid giving the other guys an option to play freely but that does not make him the best Indian test player ever. He has not done it frequently enough when there were no partners. Also, in todays game, its debatable whether Sachin or Ganguly would not have provided Sehwag the support Dravid did. BTW Sachin has grinded it out umpteenth times when out of form, only to be called a selfish player who plays for records and his place in the team for a strike rate which was far far better than Dravid's on Day 3!