Ultimate_Game Posted July 24, 2011 Posted July 24, 2011 I don't have much to say if you think the following are equivalent : 1. Scoring 152 against McGrath on a pitch where the next highest score was 67 and scoring 148 on a pitch where both first innings were 600 each followed by 500 and Pathan scoring 90. 2. Scoring 52 on a pitch where Akram, Waqar, and Saqlain have reduced your team to 82/5 chasing 260 odd and scoring 76 against Anderson, Tremlett, and Sidebottom where a significant part of the knock was played against Vaughan and Panesar due to bad light in reality. Look you can't simply look at scorecard and ignore the match situation and context. Allow me to elaborate... 1. Dhoni's 148 came when India were chasing leather for 1.5 days and then saw its top order back in the pavilion. It looked we would lose the match just as Pakistan did in 2004 after Sehwag's triple hundred. Scoreboard pressure means quite a lot and Akhtar was clocking around 155 kph IIRC. If Dhoni hadn't stood up we would have lost the match. Also, the innings came away from home in Pakistan which for us hasn't really been a happy hunting ground. 2. As I explained earlier the situation and conditions weren't quite batting friendly. India were in a similar position as they generally are in the 1st overseas test. Panesar and Vaughan did bowl but not that much. In fact in the last hour or so it was all pace with Dhoni holding the fort with tail batting around him. He looked ungainly but he saw us through which was one of the main reasons we won the series. These innings may not be all time greats but surely can't be ignored either. Hope you see my viewpoint.
Ultimate_Game Posted July 24, 2011 Posted July 24, 2011 Are you trying to tell me Dhoni is better keeper than Kirmani' date=' More, and Mongia?[/quote'] Not as a pure wk but if you take the complete package of batting, wicketkeeping and captaincy then yes.
The Outsider Posted July 24, 2011 Posted July 24, 2011 Look you can't simply look at scorecard and ignore the match situation and context. Allow me to elaborate... 1. Dhoni's 148 came when India were chasing leather for 1.5 days and then saw its top order back in the pavilion. It looked we would lose the match just as Pakistan did in 2004 after Sehwag's triple hundred. Scoreboard pressure means quite a lot and Akhtar was clocking around 155 kph IIRC. If Dhoni hadn't stood up we would have lost the match. Also, the innings came away from home in Pakistan which for us hasn't really been a happy hunting ground. 2. As I explained earlier the situation and conditions weren't quite batting friendly. India were in a similar position as they generally are in the 1st overseas test. Panesar and Vaughan did bowl but not that much. In fact in the last hour or so it was all pace with Dhoni holding the fort with tail batting around him. He looked ungainly but he saw us through which was one of the main reasons we won the series. These innings may not be all time greats but surely can't be ignored either. Hope you see my viewpoint. At least get the facts right - the last 10 overs or so were bowled completely by the spinners because Vaughan was worried if he brought on the faster bowlers the umpires would call off the match for bad light. Yeah, it was a good innings, but not a patch on the Mongia innings at Chennai no matter how much you try to glorify it. And frankly, talking about the Faisalabad innings in the same breath as Kotla is a joke. If not Dhoni, then Pathan or Kumble would have scored or we could have even scored in the second innings, the pitch was so flat.
The Outsider Posted July 24, 2011 Posted July 24, 2011 He is definitely on par with them if not better ... just look at the numbers ... you cant argue with no.of catches held in the short no.of inngs ... FFS he is just behind Ian Healy in terms of D/I ... even YOU would find it hard to argue with that but I wont put it beyond you to claim that we had the same sort of bowlers that Healy kept wkts to. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;keeper=1;orderby=dismissals_per_inns;qualmin2=50;qualval2=dismissals;template=results;type=fielding Dhoni is not in the same class as any of the keepers you have named above - you can run all the numbers you want, but if you want to see how ordinary Dhoni is as a keeper just watch the ongoing Lords' test match.
Ultimate_Game Posted July 24, 2011 Posted July 24, 2011 At least get the facts right - the last 10 overs or so were bowled completely by the spinners because Vaughan was worried if he brought on the faster bowlers the umpires would call off the match for bad light. Yeah' date=' it was a good innings, but not a patch on the Mongia innings at Chennai no matter how much you try to glorify it. And frankly, talking about the Faisalabad innings in the same breath as Kotla is a joke. If not Dhoni, then [b']Pathan or Kumble would have scored or we could have even scored in the second innings, the pitch was so flat. Doesn't work all the time... When Sehwag scored his triple hundred in Multan the pitch was flat there as well but we ended up winning the game coz scoreboard pressure gets to the batsmen. You need to have mental toughness and resilience to score when your opponent has put up 600 odd on the board, and especially when your top order hasn't scored many. You can't rely on Kumble to score too many against Akhtar and company. Even the Sydney pitch was flat but we still lost that Test in 2007 losing 3 wkts to Clarke so you never know what could happen in the 4th innings.
The Outsider Posted July 24, 2011 Posted July 24, 2011 I can similarly show you test matches where even Ian Healy sucked very bad ... these things happen. I cant believe that of all people you would jump to conclusions based on such instances. I cant recall another test match where Dhoni had such a poor test behind the stumps. Just watch the West Indies series where he fluffed at least one chance a test, or South Africa, or Sri Lanka. Dhoni has been quite ordinary behind the stumps for around a year now - the Lords' test was merely the culmination of the decline when because of his chickening out to stand further up, several chances were lost. It's one thing for a keeper to make mistakes and quite a different level to effect the entire team's catching by losing confidence in his ability.
Serani Posted July 24, 2011 Posted July 24, 2011 He is definitely on par with them if not better ... just look at the numbers ... you cant argue with no.of catches held in the short no.of inngs ... FFS he is just behind Ian Healy in terms of D/I ... even YOU would find it hard to argue with that but I wont put it beyond you to claim that we had the same sort of bowlers that Healy kept wkts to. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;keeper=1;orderby=dismissals_per_inns;qualmin2=50;qualval2=dismissals;template=results;type=fielding So Kamran Akmal is the third best keeper ever. These keeper stats are bull.
King Posted July 25, 2011 Posted July 25, 2011 Dhoni will score a 100 or a will play a match saving knock and then people will start worshipping him. It's the same vicious circle eh?
King Tendulkar Posted July 25, 2011 Author Posted July 25, 2011 Yeah' date=' regularly muffing up stumpings, caught behinds off spinners, and watching the first slip while hardly moving an inch when an edge flies through, standing so far back that edges don't carry to slips are all signs of a great wicketkeeper. :adore:[/quote'] So you agree with me now. Despite early on arguing against me. The years have gone by and I have been proved right then:winky:
asterix Posted July 25, 2011 Posted July 25, 2011 So you agree with me now. Despite early on arguing against me. The years have gone by and I have been proved right then:winky: He was good. He appears to have lost his Mojo and focus after his marraige. Now all the time he is focussed to return quickly to his hotel room..He needs to practice more on "cricket ball" catching..
King Tendulkar Posted July 25, 2011 Author Posted July 25, 2011 He was good. He appears to have lost his Mojo and focus after his marraige. Now all the time he is focussed to return quickly to his hotel room..He needs to practice more on "cricket ball" catching.. First IPL, now inevitably his wife cops it:haha: From Sehwag to Laxman, form goes and the wife takes the blame. Its like some of you are frustrated mother in laws wanting to harrass the daughter in law!
asterix Posted July 25, 2011 Posted July 25, 2011 First IPL, now inevitably his wife cops it:haha: From Sehwag to Laxman, form goes and the wife takes the blame. Its like some of you are frustrated mother in laws wanting to harrass the daughter in law! All I'm saying is that he has too much of burdon on him and he needs to ditch WKeeping. Just be Captain, batsman, fielder and occasional bowler when senior bowlers like Bhajji do didly-squat..He is bound to lose valuable mojo both on and off the field. He needs to conserve his energy. This will help pathetic Bhajji too to get atleast few wickets when the WK doesn't regularly fluffs chances off his bowling..Bhajji already creates very few chances and if those chances are missed by an over-burdoned WK, then Bhajji gets frustrated (which was evident yesterday)..
Guest Gunner Posted July 25, 2011 Posted July 25, 2011 He is definitely on par with them if not better ... just look at the numbers ... you cant argue with no.of catches held in the short no.of inngs ... FFS he is just behind Ian Healy in terms of D/I ... even YOU would find it hard to argue with that but I wont put it beyond you to claim that we had the same sort of bowlers that Healy kept wkts to. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;keeper=1;orderby=dismissals_per_inns;qualmin2=50;qualval2=dismissals;template=results;type=fielding Any list which has Kamran Akmal as the third best in the world is not credible.
Sidhoni Posted July 25, 2011 Posted July 25, 2011 And here's what I've learnt from Outsider's infinite wisdom... 1. Any innings of note played by Dhoni came on featherbeds and in perfect batting conditions no matter Dhoni had to save the Test batting with the tail. 2. Match context and results don't mean anything, i.e. facing English seamers on an overcast, rainy day is the same as batiing on a shirtfront in sub-continent. 3. Outsider has "cricketing eye" which none of us mere mortals are blessed with. 4. Stats don't mean anything, i.e. an average of 38+ as a wk and leading from the front and not losing any series in the last 3 years means nothing coz we can't discern stats from hypothetical scenarios which Outsider can given his "cricketing eye" :hysterical: And yeah, whoever disagrees with Outsider has a lower IQ level :haha: I am sure this settles the debate :cantstop: :hatsoff::hatsoff:
Guest Gunner Posted July 25, 2011 Posted July 25, 2011 All I'm saying is that he has too much of burdon on him and he needs to ditch WKeeping. Just be Captain, batsman, fielder and occasional bowler when senior bowlers like Bhajji do didly-squat..He is bound to lose valuable mojo both on and off the field. He needs to conserve his energy. This will help pathetic Bhajji too to get atleast few wickets when the WK doesn't regularly fluffs chances off his bowling..Bhajji already creates very few chances and if those chances are missed by an over-burdoned WK, then Bhajji gets frustrated (which was evident yesterday).. If he doesn't keep wickets, Dhoni won't make the test team as a pure batsman. It's as simple as that.
Sidhoni Posted July 25, 2011 Posted July 25, 2011 Its just that he's facing a rough patch in this season.Once, he gets back into form, he'll be scoring runs.
asterix Posted July 25, 2011 Posted July 25, 2011 Its just that he's facing a rough patch in this season.Once' date=' he gets back into form, he'll be scoring runs.[/quote'] I'm only concerned about his WKeeping. He's having some technical issue. He tends to go away from the eventual direction of the catch. He's struggling with his catching reflexes. Far too many sharp chances are getting missed when spinners are bowling and some straight forward chances getting missed off the seamers due to this technical issue of his initial movement to the wrong side. I'm not worried about his batting. He is batting well and will be in form. His captaincy is bit defensive but the team can manage. Since our bowling is weak as compared to our batting, I was hoping that whatever few chances our bowlers create shouldn't go abegging..Our bowlers tend to get disheartened pretty soon, including senior bowlers like Zak & Bhajji and they show their frustration on the field and it might affect their motivation..Zak was pissed off at the slip field placing when catches got dropped and immediately afterwards he had that "injury" and went off the field.. Bhajji's emotions were quite clearly evident yesterday when Dhoni missed few caught behind chances..
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