Guest dada_rocks Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 http://www.indianexpress.com/story/334814.html Of all the objections to the nuclear deal the most mystifying and intriguing is that the Prime Minister should desist from going ahead with it because it offends Indian Muslims. First information of this came from of all people a supposedly godless Communist MP by the name of M K Pandhe. Commissar Karat was quick to disown his comrade’s comment, but by then it had been picked up by other people, including the Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh and the Indian Union Muslim League whose representative in Dr Manmohan Singh’s government is E Ahamed, Minister of State in the External Affairs ministry. This newspaper quoted one of his party colleagues as saying, “The Muslim community is worried about the deal. The IUML would ask the Congress to consider the community’s concerns while going ahead with the dealâ€. If you surf the net, as I did to research Muslim sentiments on nuclear matters, you will come upon various Islamic organisations who state that they do not approve of the deal. This has nothing to do with some ancient injunction in the Quran or the hadith, thereby above the realm of debate, but to do with the more modern phenomenon of anti-Americanism. The world’s Muslims hate America, the argument goes, because the American government has been killing Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan. So, for the Indian Government to get close to America in civilian, military or strategic terms would be seen as a direct affront to Indian Muslims. The Muslim organisations who take this view appear not to have noticed that Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Pakistan are Muslim countries and all very close to the United States. How do they explain this? They do not. Just as Commissar Karat does not feel the need to explain why he hates America so much that he was ready to blow the only chance the Communists have ever had or will have to control a government in Delhi. He and his comrades have said on more than one occasion that it’s not just the nuclear deal that is a problem for them, it is that they see it as a cover for India and the United States to come to a secret strategic alliance. So? So what? Commissar Karat’s personal hatred of the United States is so intense that during one of his angry press conferences last week he sneered at the Prime Minister for being an ‘admirer’ of America. As if the very idea was strange and incomprehensible. It is not. If he stepped out of his politburo and wandered through the streets of Indian cities and towns the Commissar would discover that the average bourgeois Indian is a huge admirer of the United States. The old anglophile brown sahibs with their phony Oxford accents that were a leftover of the Raj have disappeared except perhaps in West Bengal. Everywhere else they have been replaced by a new generation of Indians who generally think of America as a good country. They watch American films and TV shows, eat American food, wear American clothes, go on American holidays and stay on if they can find a job. And the first chance they get they send their children to study in American universities. Oxford and Cambridge are no longer the first choice they once used to be. Personally, I think the war on Iraq will go down as the worst strategic mistake made by an American government, but most polls in India reveal that the average Indian does not think of Iraq as a burning issue. Nor are there strong feelings about the attack on Afghanistan. Mention the Taliban, though, and you are likely to provoke a torrent of abuse. Mention anything to do with Islamism and jihadi terrorism and strong feelings surface. Islamism is hated because it has directly affected the lives of so many ordinary Indians in the form of terrorism. Last week, days before the second anniversary of the train bombings in Mumbai, the Indian embassy in Kabul was attacked. Two months ago, nearly a hundred people lost their lives in the attack on Jaipur’s bazaars and temples. Two days after the attack, I wandered through the bazaars in which the bombs had gone off and the anger against Bangladeshis, who may or may not have been behind the bombings, was frightening. So, if Muslim politicians and community organisations are encouraging anti-Americanism they need to be careful because they could well be laying the grounds for a dangerous divide: A divide in which the only people on the side of anti-American Muslim groups would be Marxists with an ideological hatred of America. Politics makes strange bedfellows as can be seen from the new alignments in Delhi. But godless Marxists and passionately religious Islamists? How strange can bedfellows get?
sandtest Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 Communists are godless? No way..... They have made ideology of Marxism and Mao Zedong as their Deity who is as authoritative and brutal in punishment as any other Allah from deserts of Saudia arabia. That said, Indians will support any honest effort from America to bring the two largest democracies together for fighting together the rise of political Islam and Autocratic Maoism. After centuries we are seeing that interests of USA and India are co-inciding with each other and there is no reason why Indians will not like a close relation with USA. Commies will be redundant in next election anyway -- unless they resort to their usual poll rigging and violence. The last time when a US popularity poll was held, George Bush was the most popular leader in India than even in his own country....that is proof enough that if America extends one hand Indians will be graceful in accepting and extending their support. However, certain thinkers in India , still believe and rightly so, that some NGOs are surrogates of US backed evangelical Christian missionaries with a mission to "extend" hand of "help". They see north-east particularly, particularly Nagaland turmoil connected to it. If this concern of BJP is addressed, Indo-US relation is poised to grow beyond every expectation.
kumble_rocks Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 Commissar Karat and his comrades have said on more than one occasion that it’s not just the nuclear deal that is a problem for them, it is that they see it as a cover for India and the United States to come to a secret strategic alliance. So? So what? Commissar Karat’s personal hatred of the United States is so intense that during one of his angry press conferences last week he sneered at the Prime Minister for being an ‘admirer’ of America. As if the very idea was strange and incomprehensible. It is not. Big deal ! Even ex-defense minister under BJP government George Fernandes also hated the USA . Heck he was opposed to Cocoa Cola during the 70's .. But , got to agree that this unholy alliance between Communazis and Islamists is certainly strange and worrisome...
Guest dada_rocks Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 They hate it even today as a party ideology . It's nto same as some JD(U) MP's personal aversion of yore.. IN days gone by each and every of congress MP hated USA. We are talking about things as it stands today.
Kriterion Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 However, certain thinkers in India , still believe and rightly so, that some NGOs are surrogates of US backed evangelical Christian missionaries with a mission to "extend" hand of "help". They see north-east particularly, particularly Nagaland turmoil connected to it. If this concern of BJP is addressed, Indo-US relation is poised to grow beyond every expectation. the US evangelicals are a pretty strong movement. the lasting legacy of the bush administration will be his 2 supreme court appointments, both cut from the christian right wing cloth, and both young enough to hold onto their seats for 30+ years. this was the reason the evangelicals came out full force to vote in 2004. its unrealistic for BJP to expect stopage of the missionary activity as it is one of primary tenets of christianity and the primary tenet of evangelism. unless BJP turns india into a war zone which would result in immediate death for any missionaries found therein, it wouldn't deter the evangelicals. in fact, even war zones don't deter them, just look at all the work they're doing in africa, converting millions along the way. india, with its near billion "pagans", is the most fertile farm to sow the seeds of christ. nothing other than a mass conversion to christianity will change that.
cowboysfan Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 Human beings will find a reason to kill each other-right now religion is the reason.This is a fact and will never change-the trick is to pick the winning side.
Kriterion Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 Human beings will find a reason to kill each other-right now religion is the reason.This is a fact and will never change-the trick is to pick the winning side. very true. here's the corollary: humans of every stripe will also pick their own personalized scapegoat (jews, muslims, blacks, humanists) for each conflict.
sandtest Posted July 15, 2008 Posted July 15, 2008 its unrealistic for BJP to expect stopage of the missionary activity as it is one of primary tenets of christianity and the primary tenet of evangelism. unless BJP turns india into a war zone which would result in immediate death for any missionaries found therein, it wouldn't deter the evangelicals. in fact, even war zones don't deter them, just look at all the work they're doing in africa, converting millions along the way. Actually BJP is realistic in getting rid of soul-harvesting from India provided they are elected in each and every states of India. For example, in major Indian states such as Madhya Pradesh, Rajasthan and Gujarat where BJP is in power has passed LEGAL bills which OFFICIALLY ban conversion of POOR and BELOW POVERTY level folks who otherwise were falling pray to hawk eyes of pious "Christ" messengers. You see, why a visionary Indian leader like NAMO is hated by western influenced Indian media and certain groups in USA so much so that they go overboard in rejecting his visa?? reason is it was NAMO in Gujarat who realized early the dangers of Political Islam and Christian subversion of Evangelical missionaries and cracked hard on them. Particularly West shivers at the thought of NAMO as PM of India since that will put a death nail on all Missionary funded NGOs and conversion festivals. india, with its near billion "pagans", is the most fertile farm to sow the seeds of christ. nothing other than a mass conversion to christianity will change that. That is very true my freind. But whom we should blame. It's we who elected Sonia Antonio Manio's party without trying to know that she is a hardcore Christain loyal to Vatican. See the result! (1) Sonia influences, and elevated total 4 Christian Chief Ministers. (2) Meteoric rise of Ambica Soni ( another Christian) in the ranks of Congress. (3) Sonia married her daughter Priyanka to a Christian -- Robert Wadhera -- under the guise of a Hindu marraige ceremony to fool Indian massses....:hatsoff: (4) Ever increasing conversion spree in Congress ruled states....Congress happily provides visas to lunatic Evangelists like Benny Hin who travel to India for "mass" preaching and to suprvise "tribal" Indians "upliftment". the US evangelicals are a pretty strong movement. the lasting legacy of the bush administration will be his 2 supreme court appointments, both cut from the christian right wing cloth, and both young enough to hold onto their seats for 30+ years. this was the reason the evangelicals came out full force to vote in 2004. As an Indian, I have no problem with Bush whatever he does in his country to protect their culture and values/local belief. In fact I will say India should take leaf from US and catch-up fast on issues like "how to protect your NATIONAL and INDIGENOUS interests first", before preaching hot air of morality and oneness of world. Moreover, by far, George Bush has been the BEST president for INDIA so far compared to all previous US presidents like Clinton who were only machiavellian talk no action. I will say give me a Bush any day than those Clintons, Nixons etc.
Kriterion Posted July 15, 2008 Posted July 15, 2008 For example, in major Indian states such as Madhya Pradesh, Rajasthan and Gujarat where BJP is in power has passed LEGAL bills which OFFICIALLY ban conversion of POOR and BELOW POVERTY level folks who otherwise were falling pray to hawk eyes of pious "Christ" messengers. this is similar to islamist sharia practices, and though i had heard of such apostacy laws in tamil nadu or maybe karnataka, i wasn't aware it happened in the north (south indians are disproportionately converting to christianity or islam). for example, i'm sure you are aware that in the US, aproximately one quarter of the muslim population are african american muslims i.e converts within the last 2 generations. majority of african american's are impoverished and marginalized groups, and whilst many of them have shown an interest towards islam, it is at least equally true that they have been precisely targetted by muslims as "easy projects" for conversion. now it is quite noteworthy that although converts to islam still are still overwhelmingly african american males, the number of female and white converts has increased 3 or 4-fold in the last 5 years, based purely upon observation. now, islam and christianity, are always preached as religions of equality of mankind (i.e all believers are equal in the eyes of christ/allah) and this is one of the historical contexts behind the conversion of a quarter of the subcontinents' population to islam and christianity - most converts were low caste or no caste dalits. in the exact same vein, islam is perceived as "the natural religion" for the black man, and "white" christianity is seen as "the oppiate" of the [black] masses, as the racially concious Marx would have said. however, in some communities, the african american muslims realize that there is just as much racism in the immigrant muslims' eyes as there are in white-only churches. as an african american muslim told me recently, "we were told there isn't any racism in islam, but you find out there is alot of racism in muslims". as a result many of these african american's end up starting their own mosques as the alternative is "to go back to kufr (disbelief)".
Kriterion Posted July 24, 2008 Posted July 24, 2008 For example, in major Indian states such as Madhya Pradesh, Rajasthan and Gujarat where BJP is in power has passed LEGAL bills which OFFICIALLY ban conversion of POOR and BELOW POVERTY level folks who otherwise were falling pray to hawk eyes of pious "Christ" messengers. is this the law you were referring to? "Section 4(1) of the Act requires any person wishing to convert to another religion to give a prior notice of at least 30 days to district authorities, Failing to give such notice can result in a fine of 1,000 rupees (US$23)."
Guest dada_rocks Posted July 25, 2008 Posted July 25, 2008 Sandy so how is the mullah current flowing viz a viz electoral politics.. Mulayam should be the biggest loser there I guess..
sandtest Posted July 25, 2008 Posted July 25, 2008 Sandy so how is the mullah current flowing viz a viz electoral politics.. Mulayam should be the biggest loser there I guess.. Mullahs are completely incapable of seeing the daylight....Rajnath Singh did say that Cycle of Samajwadi is all money and kursi, Indian Muslims should see that and reject themselves being exploited as a tool for political vote bank. But the Muslim community of UP land are different species all together. First their is Shia community who won't give a hoot about deal or no deal, corruption of SP etc. as long as their Moharram Tazia is regularly attended by Samajwadi goons. Next Sunnis are in various sects including higher "caste" Ashrafs and Brelvis who will be happy with Mulayam since he will make sure that in coming month of Muslim fasting of Ramazan, Mulayam and his son will host Iftaar parties in every district of UP, which end up with heavy speeches of how samajwaadi is the only thekedaar of Muslim community, followed by usual BS of evil BJP, evil Brahaman+Thakur remark. Only loss for Samaajwaadi will be the deobandi Muslim votes which may slip towards Maya, if she slows down her crack on Goondas. By large, the traditional Samajwadi base of Yadavs (Ahir, gaderia, Kurmi, lohar, kumbhaar) is intact. caste politics keeps dividing Hindus of India and they will pay for this in future!!!
Ram Posted July 25, 2008 Posted July 25, 2008 Kindly ease it a bit on the religious stuff. Terribly sorry to say this isnt the place for it.
Guest dada_rocks Posted July 25, 2008 Posted July 25, 2008 Mullahs are completely incapable of seeing the daylight....Rajnath Singh did say that Cycle of Samajwadi is all money and kursi, Indian Muslims should see that and reject themselves being exploited as a tool for political vote bank. But the Muslim community of UP land are different species all together. First their is Shia community who won't give a hoot about deal or no deal, corruption of SP etc. as long as their Moharram Tazia is regularly attended by Samajwadi goons. Next Sunnis are in various sects including higher "caste" Ashrafs and Brelvis who will be happy with Mulayam since he will make sure that in coming month of Muslim fasting of Ramazan, Mulayam and his son will host Iftaar parties in every district of UP, which end up with heavy speeches of how samajwaadi is the only thekedaar of Muslim community, followed by usual BS of evil BJP, evil Brahaman+Thakur remark. Only loss for Samaajwaadi will be the deobandi Muslim votes which may slip towards Maya, if she slows down her crack on Goondas. By large, the traditional Samajwadi base of Yadavs (Ahir, gaderia, Kurmi, lohar, kumbhaar) is intact. caste politics keeps dividing Hindus of India and they will pay for this in future!!! Man things seem even more rotten that bihar politics in UP
Guest dada_rocks Posted July 25, 2008 Posted July 25, 2008 Little personal anecdote about political affilitions evolve : So my mother-in-law I used to know as staunch BJPites so far has suddenly started finding faults with BJP. Even in cash for vote saga she would say they should not have embarrased Amar Singh like that....... Reason for this heart-change her dear brother one of the stalwart of Bihar BJP has been sidelined by Sushil Modi camp consequently no longer enjoys cabinet position.......Full-marks to her brother though despite call for breaking party by his camp he refused to oblige .......... principle bhi koi chij hoti hai She supports congress these days because her cousin another brother close to her is in congress and these days is darling of top leadership.... It's all about personal gains these days Needless to she adores me and I just love my mother-in-law. Never understood the rai·son d'être of proverbial son-in-law mother-in-law cold-war.
Guest dada_rocks Posted July 25, 2008 Posted July 25, 2008 Ama chhor do ye naya naya power mila hai he gets excited a bit for no reason.. will get used to it:winky:
CC1981 Posted July 25, 2008 Posted July 25, 2008 Sriram, start deleting stuff you don't like...you got the power, use it ! You are not answerable to us directly- so don't bother!
The Outsider Posted July 25, 2008 Posted July 25, 2008 Don't think Sriram needs anyone's advice here.
CC1981 Posted July 25, 2008 Posted July 25, 2008 Good enough Shwetabh, but kindly tell me, whats the point of Sriram announcing that the kitchen is getting too hot and having the expected counter responses about how 'paani naak se uncha ho rahaa hai' ? Surely, whichever way the moderator chip falls, it can be a bit more decisive and lead to less derailment...we have a feedback section, can we atleast have all the whinage restricted there instead of thread derailments ? Please tell me if that is too much to ask....we are here to debate and talk on many issues..not really to debate what we can/cannot debate.
Ram Posted July 25, 2008 Posted July 25, 2008 You guys can get as much excited as you want, its not going to make a difference to me. The brief given to me was to 'keep clear of religious discussions'. While I am definitely not averse to discussing about religion, I wont be a silent spectator to bashing. After the intial warning, there will be 24 hours period, hopefully before which things will get better in these threads. If not, it will be closed, no questions asked. And you guys can whine/threaten/mock me as much as you want. I simply have too many other things to take care of, to take what goes on a MB seriously. Frankly, I think I have already spent too much time on this. I dont care who stays or who decides to leave. Its everyone's right to decide what they want to do. I just want to make this better place, and not some religion bashing, right-wing, fundementalist ghetto some people are trying to convert this into. And no, I will NEVER delete/edit posts... We are dealing with grown-ups here.. I respect their maturity and intelligence.
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