Israel returns child killer Samir Kantar to Lebanon

[fineleg]

So' date= just punish or kill the innocent along with the real guilty, since we cannot find (or pinpoint) the real guilty. Is that the solution? .

So, BB - what is your theory or solution? The above? Its ok if some innocents die along with some of the perpetrators. Is that the proposal?

[CC1981]

So' date=' BB - what is your theory or solution? The above?[/quote']

[Kriterion]

I meant the unending outrage from the torch bearers of Secularism (Read Hindus ) to what Happened in Gujrat to the minority with complete disregard to the original acts of provocation. Feel free to find a similar instance where this supposedly peacefull and secular community has expressed outrage at practically a subvervise activity a month.

taslima nasreen in bangladesh did much the same during the 1992 babri mosque riots. but the point is that the majorities of all religions behave in the same manner and think in the same manner too. of course there are notable exceptions, which is why they are so notable to begin with.

[CC1981]

Did you provide a practical solution finey ? Dont think so.

Irrelevant to the discussion. You havnt provided a practical solution either and nobody has. So there is no point in bringing this up.

do you accept there is a serious problem with this community ? dont think so

He/she has. However,he/she does not advocate the anti-humanistic collective punishment scenario that you advocate.

Do you agree that the facts point towards only one community - Yes you do but dont have the moral fortitude to say so clearly..

No it does not point towards one community only. there are hindus too who go around burning churches and maiming priests.

they are bluntly resisting even the faintest attempt at restoring any rights of hindu community in Kashmir through open protests ?

Categoric lie.

[kumble_rocks]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7480217.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7474682.stm Iam sure all that is fabricated.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?sectionName=&id=50945590-31e6-4bd1-8e9d-9b49a109bc42&&Headline=She+lived+to+tell+her+story&strParent=strParentID Girija Kanna's home burned for three days when militants set it on fire. But there was a far greater tragedy unfolding before her eyes: Kashmir burned for twenty years. Kanna has seen the last two decades of Kashmir through a rare prism: she is among the handful of Kashmiri Hindus – locally called Pandits -- who stayed back even as hundreds of thousands of others from the community fled the Valley in 1989 and 1990 after killings and death threats. Kanna saw the posters that ordered Pandits to leave, bodies of people brutally killed by militants and homes ransacked, looted and burned by them. But she also recounts horror tales of how paramilitary soldiers took away belongings from the abandoned homes of Pandits, how they molested women and made dancing girls perform in desolate neighbourhoods, and how ordinary Kashmiris were subjected to humiliation and beatings. But she believes the worst is over. "I did not leave. I stayed back, and I have no regrets," said Kanna, 44, who lives off a narrow lane in Srinagar's Indiranagar naighbourhood with her pet cat. "I think the future is bright for us Kashmiris." Two decades ago however, the unimaginable was playing out. Towards the end of 1989, posters began appearing on the doors of Kashmiri Pandit families, asking them to leave. Several Urdu newspapers published "expulsion orders" from the militants. And, from January 19, 1990, breaking the silence of the night, terrifying roars simultaneously went up from mosques across the valley: "Kashmiri Pandits leave the valley, leave your women behind". Kanna, then 25, lived in the Habbaqadal neighbourhood named after a nearby bridge, one of the nine wooden bridges in Srinagar. Slowly Hindu families began to empty out, leaving in hired taxis or military trucks in the middle of the night. Those who did not were dragged out of their homes and humiliated. Some people she knew were killed. "Then no Pandit remained. The neigbourhood was pitch dark, seemed like a haunted place," said Kanna, who used to work with the Central Telegraph Office. By mid-1990, about 350,000 Pandits had fled their homeland. Kanna moved too – but only to another part of Srinagar, Karan Nagar. She continued to go to work. "One day I saw my name on the notice board in the office, ordering me to leave," she said. "But many of my colleagues were very supportive, they offered me all help. And so many Muslims were so kind and helpful, telling me not to leave." By this time, hundreds of thousands of troops were pouring into the Kashmir Valley, most of them inexperienced in dealing with conflict of this kind. Bunkers began to come up. Srinagar began to get sandbagged. Weeks later, Kanna returned to Habba Kadal one day to see the condition of her home. She saw a sight that she has never forgotten. "Locks had been broken by militants. They had stored ammunition on the roofs. And everything in my house was gone – the huge brass utensils and expensive ceramic ware, the furniture, even my father's documents and the mounted barasingha (antelope) head," Kanna said. Deaths of Pandits continued. A government official was killed as he sat on his chair in his office; another chased to his top floor and fell in the grain canister, soaking the wheat with his blood. "There was a family – the Ganjus – the husband and two minor daughters were killed by the militants. She went to the mosque and said: `you killed them, why did you spare me?' They said `to mourn them'," Kanna said. "And Kashmiri Pandits who had fled used to call me and ridicule me on the phone for staying back, saying they were sure I was wearing a burqa by now," she said. Across the city, panicky soldiers had also started mowing down protesting Kashmiris. Security forces slowly began to move into neighbourhoods, setting up pickets that – unknown to Kashmiris -- would last two decades. A 20-year medley of beatings, deaths, shootouts, humiliating searches, military crackdowns and street battles began. Suspected began to disappear, never to be found again. Homes were raided. "The security forces did a lot of injustice. I saw soldiers looting homes. Expensive Kashmiti carpets would be thrown from roofs to waiting soldiers on the ground," Kanna said. "Security forces blocked traffic, beat up drivers, made people crouch like a murga (rooster) or made them stand on their heads." One day a drunken paramilitary soldier leaped over the wall and forced into Kanna's home. She lodged a written complaint, and finally got an apology. "They even whistled, teased and passed comments when I or any other woman went by. They used to bring women from Kashmiri villages and make then sing and dance. Those soldiers who couldn't fit in, peeped from walls and watched," she said. Twenty years on, several Pandits are returning now. The government's rehabilitation efforts for Pandits include proposed secured enclaves, buildings with small two-room apartments and a recent Rs. 1,600 crore package. They have been received with little enthusiasm. The large-scale return of the Pandits might be a distant possibility. Still, Kanna sees shades of Kashmiriyat shining again. "The Pandit homes were destroyed. Many people I know have returned to their villages but there have nowhere to live -- they say there is little help from the government but local Muslims have given them a place to stay at their homes for now," she said. And when Kanna's brother and sister-in-law came visiting in June and they shared an auto-rickshaw, the Muslim driver, realising the passengers were Pandits, charged ten rupees less than normal. "It was a very sweet gesture on his part," Kanna said. "We want to see you happy', he told us."

[Kriterion]

And what happened to her just a few months ago that too within India ?

must have over stayed her welcome. she was there for what 15 years??? i'm sure many indians didn't approve of her anti-religious talk...what most people don't know is that tasleema nasreen is an atheist: she hates all religions and if hinduism is a religion, then she hates it too. she has been open about this.

Could you show me who amongst the Hindus is fighting the equivalent of Jihad. How many communities have we evicted and converted by force etc etc ....

isn't that the whole idea behind BJP and hindutva? to fight back? i can understand their hostility towards the islamic community...muslim hordes had in fact conquored india (though that has little to do with 99% of india's current muslim population). however whats the BJP's beef with the christians? why are they banning conversions to christianity in the states they control? the point is that all religions have the extremists who are really cut from the same cloth. morality and humanity aren't subordinate to feasibility, otherwise the world finds itself in the position its in now (i.e every tom, dick and harry can argue that targetting innocents is allowable since anything else is impracticle and unfeasible).

[kumble_rocks]

^ Beats me why the same Omar Abdullah is being now called Communal by KP's ! They should praise this guy for being champion of KP cause going by this speech which I did hear long before !

[fineleg]

BB You asked me some questions - I answered you what I thought. Now, you are being evasive. You said you'll answer me. Do that now. What do you propose as the solution? Be clear, be frank and tell us. What do you frankly think? Eliminate Pak as first step? Is that step 1? If so, state it. Then what is step 2? Eliminate certain community folk from India? If so, state it.

[fineleg]

I am not asking you to argue anything. Even if you think what I want is stupid, what I want is what I want. Now, your turn: What do you want to do? Whats your proposed action in this situation? Lets leave aside if what you want is correct or wrong etc. First of all, what do you want to do about this situation? =========== PS: BTW - regarding innocent should be unharmed, I think you would have read this: "It is better for 10 guilty to walk free, than for one innocent to be convicted" Have you read this? Do answer the above main note, and lets not just get distracted by this PS note alone.

[Kriterion]

it was not her overstaying that was a concern for Ummah ..... it was something else .... as you said they didnt like her one bit for her outspoken views about their religion.

she has outspoken views on all religions.

You are saying all that as though BJP has declared war on all minorities ! that too a religious war ... complete with fireworks of the type that are going on now ... Sorry dont agree with that comparison with the Jihadis ... BJP is at best a reactionary entity - a group that tries to protect the Hindu interests amidst mass Islamic hysteria and pseudo-secular chest thumping.

muslims and christians aren't one minority.

[Guest dada_rocks]

than ten guilty who walk free will commit another 100 crime for me it's better for one innocent to be convicted than 10 guilty to walk free....

[Ram]

The 24 hour period for this thread just ran out. So, in the interest of preserving forum rules, it has been locked, but will be reopened in 24 hours time. Meanwhile, if anyone has any grievances about this, they are free to take it up with other available channels, thank you

[CC1981]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7480217.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7474682.stm Iam sure all that is fabricated.

Ah i see. It was those Islamo-nutters you meant when you said 'they are bluntly resisting the attempts....'. I thought by 'they' you were referring to your adverseries here in 3rd person. But who are defending THOSE idiotic mullah nutters here ? Who ? Who has posted an article here backing their efforts or their cause ? So you are preaching to the choir here. And don't dare lump us into that category with your illogic of 'those who are silent are guilty by default' attitude. You know it is not true, we know it isnt true and what you are doing is called scapegoating a community ( a very prevalent malaise in India.scapegoat generalizations..if its not the muslims, the dalits, brahmins, cheene-looking, darkies etc.). All this scapegoating talk you hold is inconsistent, because you CANNOT apply same consistency to the communities which you view favourably and neither can any of us, when its our community.And to prove this, i will give you a categoric example: A month or so ago, i made a categoric disclaimer of 'yanking chain' sarcasm and referred to the FACT that out of over 150,000 desis (as in Indians) living in the lower mainland/vancouver area, its only the Punjabis that go murdering their wives and daughters and sons for divorcing someone/adultery or having a relationship they don't approve of. There are also close to 100,000 Iranis in Vancouver, who are mostly muslim too. There are many southies, bengalis, bangladeshi muslims ( 50-60,000+) and while Punjabis are the 2nd largest ethnic minority in lower mainland (after mainland chinese), they are by no means, the overwelming majority of desis here. Yet, it is a FACT ( and i can PROVE this fact by referring you to the vancouversun archives) that NO OTHER COMMUNITY goes around killing their children or people for marrying people they dont like or having sex with them on the same scale as PunjabisONLY the Punjabis do.(i can garantee you,at the least, over 95% of killings related to adultery/children marrying someone they dont like/running away from home with a lover etc. cases, its the Punjabis). When i used your own principle of 'collective punishment' and called the punjabi culture backwards & barbaric for such barbarism being vividly demonstrated by THEIR cultures ( and make no mistake, over 75% of Punjabis here are born and brought up in India), i got promptly banned by your pyaare Gambit. So when you can hold your principle of collective blame consistently, you will have a leg to stand on. Until then, you have none, because the kind of argument you will make for muslims, you will not make for hindus or punjabis and that is why your biasse viewpoint here has very little takers outside of maybe half a dozen ones. For surely, if you cannot make the distinction between a few militant/racist muslims from the vast numbers who are no different than you : pray to their Gods, sleep with their wives, go to office, play with their kids etc. type, what is your basis for making the distinction between a handful of sexist/control-freak Punjabis who kill their daughters or sons for marrying a person they don't approve from the vast majority, who are again, like you and me : go about their jobs and life ? The antagonism towards your viewpoint you are facing here is due to your flawed thinking of collective punishment, which is not only illogical, it is unethical. You want tougher actions against terrorists, nobody here has a problem with that. What we have a problem with is you wanting some sort of action (for which YOU cannot provide a straight answer- you've been asked repeatedly what would YOU do and you've not given a straight answer, except boot all muslims out of India) on the COLLECTIVE. For if you are to ask for some sort of rights reduction of ALL muslims or condemnation of them due to the actins of a few, why are you NOT asking for action against ALL punjabis for the few who treat their children SO shabbily as to kill them for marrying of unapproved people ?

[Guest dada_rocks]

BSing galore in name of moderation

[Ram]

This thread was re-opened out of respect for the Opening Poster, who wanted to discuss about a specific incident of Israel handing over a child killer and NOT for the religious debate to continue. If the trend continues, it will be locked again, this time indefinitely. Members are free to discuss this issue over PM/mail, thanks.

[Texy]

I don't understand the need for Israel to hand over a LIVE terrorist who is a child killer and a sick brainwashed psychopath in order to get remains of israeli soldiers killed in the lebanese battle!!! Now that Samir Kantar has been welcomed into Lebanon by Hezbollah......Israel can be assured of future bombings and precision based planning based on Samir's intellect and experience

[Desi Cartman]

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?sectionName=&id=50945590-31e6-4bd1-8e9d-9b49a109bc42&&Headline=She+lived+to+tell+her+story&strParent=strParentID Girija Kanna's home burned for three days when militants set it on fire. But there was a far greater tragedy unfolding before her eyes: Kashmir burned for twenty years. Kanna has seen the last two decades of Kashmir through a rare prism: she is among the handful of Kashmiri Hindus – locally called Pandits -- who stayed back even as hundreds of thousands of others from the community fled the Valley in 1989 and 1990 after killings and death threats. Kanna saw the posters that ordered Pandits to leave, bodies of people brutally killed by militants and homes ransacked, looted and burned by them. But she also recounts horror tales of how paramilitary soldiers took away belongings from the abandoned homes of Pandits, how they molested women and made dancing girls perform in desolate neighbourhoods, and how ordinary Kashmiris were subjected to humiliation and beatings. But she believes the worst is over. "I did not leave. I stayed back, and I have no regrets," said Kanna, 44, who lives off a narrow lane in Srinagar's Indiranagar naighbourhood with her pet cat. "I think the future is bright for us Kashmiris." Two decades ago however, the unimaginable was playing out. Towards the end of 1989, posters began appearing on the doors of Kashmiri Pandit families, asking them to leave. Several Urdu newspapers published "expulsion orders" from the militants. And, from January 19, 1990, breaking the silence of the night, terrifying roars simultaneously went up from mosques across the valley: "Kashmiri Pandits leave the valley, leave your women behind". Kanna, then 25, lived in the Habbaqadal neighbourhood named after a nearby bridge, one of the nine wooden bridges in Srinagar. Slowly Hindu families began to empty out, leaving in hired taxis or military trucks in the middle of the night. Those who did not were dragged out of their homes and humiliated. Some people she knew were killed. "Then no Pandit remained. The neigbourhood was pitch dark, seemed like a haunted place," said Kanna, who used to work with the Central Telegraph Office. By mid-1990, about 350,000 Pandits had fled their homeland. Kanna moved too – but only to another part of Srinagar, Karan Nagar. She continued to go to work. "One day I saw my name on the notice board in the office, ordering me to leave," she said. "But many of my colleagues were very supportive, they offered me all help. And so many Muslims were so kind and helpful, telling me not to leave." By this time, hundreds of thousands of troops were pouring into the Kashmir Valley, most of them inexperienced in dealing with conflict of this kind. Bunkers began to come up. Srinagar began to get sandbagged. Weeks later, Kanna returned to Habba Kadal one day to see the condition of her home. She saw a sight that she has never forgotten. "Locks had been broken by militants. They had stored ammunition on the roofs. And everything in my house was gone – the huge brass utensils and expensive ceramic ware, the furniture, even my father's documents and the mounted barasingha (antelope) head," Kanna said. Deaths of Pandits continued. A government official was killed as he sat on his chair in his office; another chased to his top floor and fell in the grain canister, soaking the wheat with his blood. "There was a family – the Ganjus – the husband and two minor daughters were killed by the militants. She went to the mosque and said: `you killed them, why did you spare me?' They said `to mourn them'," Kanna said. "And Kashmiri Pandits who had fled used to call me and ridicule me on the phone for staying back, saying they were sure I was wearing a burqa by now," she said. Across the city, panicky soldiers had also started mowing down protesting Kashmiris. Security forces slowly began to move into neighbourhoods, setting up pickets that – unknown to Kashmiris -- would last two decades. A 20-year medley of beatings, deaths, shootouts, humiliating searches, military crackdowns and street battles began. Suspected began to disappear, never to be found again. Homes were raided. "The security forces did a lot of injustice. I saw soldiers looting homes. Expensive Kashmiti carpets would be thrown from roofs to waiting soldiers on the ground," Kanna said. "Security forces blocked traffic, beat up drivers, made people crouch like a murga (rooster) or made them stand on their heads." One day a drunken paramilitary soldier leaped over the wall and forced into Kanna's home. She lodged a written complaint, and finally got an apology. "They even whistled, teased and passed comments when I or any other woman went by. They used to bring women from Kashmiri villages and make then sing and dance. Those soldiers who couldn't fit in, peeped from walls and watched," she said. Twenty years on, several Pandits are returning now. The government's rehabilitation efforts for Pandits include proposed secured enclaves, buildings with small two-room apartments and a recent Rs. 1,600 crore package. They have been received with little enthusiasm. The large-scale return of the Pandits might be a distant possibility. Still, Kanna sees shades of Kashmiriyat shining again. "The Pandit homes were destroyed. Many people I know have returned to their villages but there have nowhere to live -- they say there is little help from the government but local Muslims have given them a place to stay at their homes for now," she said. And when Kanna's brother and sister-in-law came visiting in June and they shared an auto-rickshaw, the Muslim driver, realising the passengers were Pandits, charged ten rupees less than normal. "It was a very sweet gesture on his part," Kanna said. "We want to see you happy', he told us."

KR can u please tell us why did u highlight certain sentences from the article. I have highlighted some sentences myself in red.

[THX_1138]

must have over stayed her welcome. she was there for what 15 years??? i'm sure many indians didn't approve of her anti-religious talk...what most people don't know is that tasleema nasreen is an atheist: she hates all religions and if hinduism is a religion, then she hates it too. she has been open about this. isn't that the whole idea behind BJP and hindutva? to fight back? i can understand their hostility towards the islamic community...muslim hordes had in fact conquored india (though that has little to do with 99% of india's current muslim population). however whats the BJP's beef with the christians? why are they banning conversions to christianity in the states they control? the point is that all religions have the extremists who are really cut from the same cloth. morality and humanity aren't subordinate to feasibility, otherwise the world finds itself in the position its in now (i.e every tom, dick and harry can argue that targetting innocents is allowable since anything else is impracticle and unfeasible).

she does not hate religion, and yes she is an atheist... she is for freedom from religion. she wants a legal code without influence from religious philosophies. as for hating religion, that would be me. i piss on everything religious, literally and metaphorically.

[CC1981]

i piss on everything religious, literally and metaphorically.

Count me in too. I have all the time in the world for philosophies- from Aristotle, Socrates, Epicurus,Buddha,Mahavira,Nagarjuna,Kant,Neitzche..hell, the mind boggles. But Allah,Ram,Vishnu,Jehovah,yadda yadda ? sorry, they arnt worth an iota of my time or effort...p!$$ on all of those 'God' characters....bane of humanity.

[THX_1138]

Count me in too. I have all the time in the world for philosophies- from Aristotle, Socrates, Epicurus,Buddha,Mahavira,Nagarjuna,Kant,Neitzche..hell, the mind boggles. But Allah,Ram,Vishnu,Jehovah,yadda yadda ? sorry, they arnt worth an iota of my time or effort...p!$$ on all of those 'God' characters....bane of humanity.

i am more of a peter singer and dan denette guy.