Ooops, who will we curse now?

[Dhondy]

Shwetabh: Merey paas bangla hai, gaadi hai, daulat hai.... tumhare paas kya hai? Dhondy: Merey paas Boss hai.

[gs]

Shwetabh: Merey paas bangla hai, gaadi hai, daulat hai.... tumhare paas kya hai? Dhondy: Merey paas Boss hai.

mere paas hai Lux ki underwear aur baniyan :haha:

[The Outsider]

Shwetabh: Merey paas bangla hai, gaadi hai, daulat hai.... tumhare paas kya hai? Dhondy: Merey paas Boss hai.

:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: But seriously, BB's stats didn't bring anything which we had not agreed upon earlier. If the numbers hold up in India then that would indeed be surprising to me given the amount of times teams collapse in India after getting through the new ball.

[The Outsider]

Even after including 98, I have shown that it does not strengthen your case significantly. Pls check my post again

It adds 2-3 more failures of the Aussie middle order.

But how are you gonna exclude Gilly from the batting lineup ? You have to discount only those innings where Gilly has come in at no. 7 & was solely responsible for reconstructing the innings. Thats too painful to do, if you want to do it, go ahead. (I wont count the inns where he has come in before no. 7!, as that would count as a performance of a MO batsman).

Yeah, it's a painful job - one I might undertake at some point but hopefully you accept a 4 vs. 5 batsman comparison is not fair as it stands.

All this is already absorbed into our fundamental premises. India's toughest opponent has been Australia. Australia's toughest opponent has been India. If McGrath & Gillespie are a thorn in India's flesh, it was Bhajji & Kumble who were a thorn in the Aussie's flesh. So it all evens out. Why would you compare McGrath with Agarkar, why not McGrath with a Kumble ?

Exactly and I would compare McGrath with Kumble if we consider cases where the Aussie middle order fails despite a good start as well. It's when Kumble/Harbhajan enter the fray that the Aussie middle order is put under pressure. Even if Agarkar picks up a couple of early wickets his freebies are hardly going to put the likes of Ponting and Waugh under pressure.

One or two exceptions dont prove a rule. These exceptions even out. An example: inspite of our upper MO failure (100 odd for 4), VVS & Dravid forged a mamoth partnership to take us to 687, which counts as a success of the MO, isnt it ?

You've considered scores of 20s by Sehwag as successes spurring our middle order to centuries. This is not too far from you know who's Ganguly inspiration theory, IMO.:D

The main role as you describe is a SINGLE HANDED match winning performance by a player. Most great players have one or two such performances in their entire career. Am not sure, that proves or disproves anything. Veeru has been one of the most prolific performers in the last 5 years & our MO has ridden on his success, more often than not.

Not single handed - I'll put up the list of those tests and the performances in them later tonight. You can judge for yourself how influential Sehwag has been in those wins.

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[The Outsider]

^Thanks. The difference has shrunk. Middle overs account for much more now and whatever is left over can be simply attributed to India putting forth many ordinary openers coupled with other teams with crap openers visiting us often. The 40-70 over period is specially interesting compared to the earlier numbers and clearly shows the importance of the old ball doing tricks on Indian tracks.

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[The Outsider]

Rawalpindi '04 -> Sehwag first ball duck. Main contributors - Dravid, Laxman, Ganguly Mumbai '04 -> Sehwag 13 runs in the match. Main contributors - Tendulkar, Laxman, Dravid Calcutta '04 -> Main contributors - Dravid, Sehwag, Tendulkar Calcutta '05 -> Sehwag not bad for 96 runs in the match. Main contributors - Dravid, Karthik, Tendulkar. Delhi '05 -> Sehwag did not play. Main contributors - Tendulkar, Ganguly, Laxman Ahmedabad '05 -> Sehwag 20 runs in the match. Main contributors - Laxman, Pathan, Yuvraj Mohali '06 -> Sehwag 87 runs in match, most in pressure free 2nd innings. Main contributors - Dravid, Sehwag, Pathan Kingston '06 -> Sehwag 4 runs in the match. Main contributors - Dravid, Kumble, Laxman Johannesburg '06 -> Sehwag 37 runs in the match. Main contributors - Laxman, Ganguly, Tendulkar Nottingham '07 -> Sehwag did not play. Main contributors - Karthik, Tendulkar, Jaffer Delhi '07 -> Sehwag did not play. Main contributors - Jaffer, Laxman, Tendulkar Perth '08 -> Sehwag 72 runs in the match. Main contributors - Laxman, Dravid, Tendulkar Kanpur '08 -> Sehwag 30 runs in the match. Main contributors - Ganguly, Laxman, Dravid That's 13 test wins out of which Sehwag has been the 2nd highest contributor on 2 occasions. He has not been in the top 3 of any other test win. Laxman - 9 times in top 3 Dravid - 8 times in top 3 Tendulkar - 8 times in top 3 Ganguly - 4 times in top 3. I guess we can close the debate now as far as how these passengers become toast if the driver does not perform.

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[The Outsider]

Bas kya kuch bhi yaar ... did those "main contributors" take the 20 wkts reqd for the win as well ?

No, but they did a much better job at giving their bowlers enough runs to take 20 wickets in than Sehwag. Some of Sehwag's best efforts have come on tracks where taking 20 wickets was always going to be an uphill struggle for our bowlers, thus a lot of his big, quick hundreds in drawn matches. Only Melbourne comes to mind where if our middle order had performed we could have won the match, out of his hundreds. We could have saved Bangalore as well. The above matches on the other hand were mostly played on 250-350 kind of wickets where a result was imminent and the numbers above show the passengers have done a better job at putting up competitive scores than Sehwag.

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[The Outsider]

You are missing the point, BB - when our bowlers did pick up 20 wickets, why is Sehwag's contribution so mediocre? And if we go down the "not able to take 20 wickets" route our other batsmen have suffered equally. Sehwag has suffered a bit more because of his brutal ability and assault on many flat pitches. What stopped Sehwag from outdoing passengers on 250-350 tracks?

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[The Outsider]

B'lore' date=' Mohali, Galle , MCG , Perth arent exactly flat pitches ... and what were the other main contributors doing in those Matches considering how Sehwag was blazing away taking all pressure off them ? [b']Its a team game Proff .... you perform one day and some others perform on others ... Sehwags list is short compared to others because he is most vulnarable to get out as he bats at top ... but its not short if you compare it with other openers ... there is a huge difference in batting as an opener and middle order.... Ask any of the "main contributors" to open then see what happens to their list (if they are willing to even open that is).

The bold part is kind of the crux, isn't it? But despite that nugget the fact remains that the middle order has done much better than Sehwag in situations where we were capable of taking 20 wickets. I admire and adore Sehwag - heck I was one of his few proponents on this board when he could not score against HP! But how does any of your argument translate into when Sehwag doesn't do well we are "toast" or "passengers", given the facts I have presented on numerous and only wins over the past few years where Sehwag has been immaterial.

[King]

That exactly is what I've been saying forever. There is no chance a single person's contribution can lead to a test victory. It has to be a collective effort and for a team to succeed at least half the team has to chip in. We unfortunately glorify some when they are high and kick some when they are down. Sure some players may be out of touch and may even need to be dropped. I think there needs to be couple of changes in the middle order but I can see where the likes of Shwetabh are coming from. There was a time when Ganguly and Sehwag were not in the team. Tendulkar was injured and was not part of the test team. That was a golden opportunity for some of the youngsters to secure their place in the test XI but they squandered a terrific opportunity to do so. On the back of these failures by the upcoming ones, Ganguly made a fantastic come back. Even Chawla was given an opportunity to play alongside Anil Kumble in India but he failed to perform. Sehwag was hardly worth anything when Rahul Dravid led the Indian team. The very reason he was dropped was because he couldn’t buy any runs. Despite that he’s now in the team meaning (thank god for that) the likes of Jaffer and Karthik have come up cropper in the long run. Throw as much stats as you like there is no way to prove Sehwag has been the major contributor to India’s victories. At times a 50 such as the one scored by Tendulkar on the Mumbai track against Aussies few years ago or the 2 fifties scored by Rahul against WI in the last test match in WI on a landmine is way more valuable than a 100 or even 200. This is why you simply cannot figure a value of a player just by numbers. For instance look back at the last test, Ishant Sharma didn’t quite have great average for the test match compared to Harbhajan or even Anil Kumble but we all know the contribution he made to the victory.

[Chandan]

Come on dude' date=' this is what a Cricket MB is all about.After a long time, we have some meaningful cricket discussion. This aint some bashing marathon like many of you believe. Its a healthy discussion, one that will draw good posters to come and share their knowledge.[/quote'] I'm sorry Bumper, but no! In fact I'm disgusted at this debate which shows that many of ICf-ers don't enjoy the victory and look for excuses to gang up against one or few members of the team, yes their own team. Had this been Sehwag been compared to Hayden--a contemporary great opener or few openers of yesteryears, it might have made some sense at all. Now it doesn't make ANY SENSE WHATSOEVER by pitting him against his own team mates. I agree fully with Ravi about this bane of Indian cricket fans!!!

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[The Outsider]

That wasnt me who said that :-D my whole purpose of getting into this debate was to highlight the fact that how rare it is to have someone like Sehwag as an opener and the immense value he brings to the team ..... the opposition is already on the run thinking of ways to minimize damage even before a ball is bowled .... and in a matter of few overs they are running helter skelter like mad dogs in heat .... How do you quantify that in numbers ? its simply futile isnt it ? Perhaps he wouldnt play the way he does had we had a middle order that read like the current English middle order ?

I don't think anyone who has followed cricket will deny Sehwag's importance to the Indian team and neither would I! Sehwag, without doubt has the potential in him to go down as one of the best test openers of all time. But to use Sehwag's accomplishments, achievements, and superlative batting as a tool to downgrade a proven bunch of performers whom as I have shown have been carrying their weight is just weird and stupid, if I may say. This very middle order has won us almost everything we've won in the past few years - they have a couple of "poor" (because they were playing Murali/Mendis against the old ball) games and they become passengers and toasts! Rubbish, I would say and prove!

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[The Outsider]

Conversely Sehwag isnt also a FTB with immense luck .....

I never talked about luck in my posts and I can easily subdue my argument about Sehwag failing on result oriented 25-350 pitches if you want.:D