New, more intrusive airport screening security

[Lurker]

Ok here is the alternative choice : a repeat of 9/11 or any such act... take a pick what you want .... as always its very easy to resort to the ultra liberal sheet ... but please try explaining to me how in your lexicon "Perceived (Not real) breach of Privacy" would be a bigger set back than lives of few thousand.

BB. Sometimes you come across as quite abusive in your post, even if you dont use the popular words. If someone is uncomfortable if Govt watches right through his clothes(and more) thats is liberal sheet?? What kind of effed up logic is that?? You might be comfortable with people looking inside your underpants, in the name of US Security, I am not. xxx

[Lurker]

Some of you are getting rhetorical for no reason.It is almost that gives the impression that those who oppose such measures are basically wanting to be killed in Air. Reality check, no person wants to be killed in an Airline mishap. Noone. However we all have concerns and I am not sure why we can not discuss that sanely without going over the top?? Onto my concerns. I shall bullet it this time for better read: a) How does one Justify the new measures? I will give an example. If I am developing an IT project there would be a QA Testing team that catches bugs right towards the end of the lifecycle. The idea of course is to avoid any failings and thereby boost the user confidence in the system. Fair enough. Works very well and most companies use it as part of process one way or the other. Now these QA team also have to justify their existence. Every few months they will send a report to Management suggesting XYZ number of bugs were caught before hand, ABC number of bugs escaped detection and how they are trying to improve. Now if the number of bugs caught(XYZ) is miniscule(or in this case NONE) I can assure you that the QA team would be cut down in numbers or may be phased out entirely. In the very least there wont be any boost in expenses, at is the case up above. b) These measures will invade my privacy. Dont think I need to elaborate it. c) These measures have essentially made travelling unpleasant. It is all fine and dandy if the only plane you catch is one a year to take a trip to India. If you had to be at the Airport 4 hours before now it would be 4 and a half big deal! The problem however is with people who fly more than once per month. Suddenly from a 15-30 minutes you have to be prepared for 2 hours wait at the Airport. A couple of months back I was in Air 4 times inside a month and I had to buy those itsy bitsy gell thingies 4 different times! It was freaking ridiculous. Also if you are a regular flier you will know how these measures ultimately end up on your ticket as "Towards Homeland Security - $15". So not only am I being inconvinciened but I am also paying for it!! There has to be a better way. xxx

[sandtest]

BB. Sometimes you come across as quite abusive in your post, even if you dont use the popular words. If someone is uncomfortable if Govt watches right through his clothes(and more) thats is liberal sheet?? What kind of effed up logic is that?? You might be comfortable with people looking inside your underpants, in the name of US Security, I am not. xxx

But Lurker guru, with all due respect to your privacy I would like to ask a simple question -- (1) Suppose you forgot to remove your belt before checking in X-ray or inside your pocket their were some metal coins or pins left and that made X-Ray to make noise, Now in that case, at least in India(can't say about US), the security man will physically move his hand over your body to physically check meanwhile unavoidingly he will get a "feel" of your "flesh" in that process -- perhaps enjoyable sometimes :D what you will prefer -- A man touching your body? or a man A man looking at some dull x-ray generated nude graphics of your body? I will say the x-ray graphics is preferable because it reduces the time and hassle for all passengers, isn't it?

[Lurker]

But Lurker guru, with all due respect to your privacy I would like to ask a simple question -- (1) Suppose you forgot to remove your belt before checking in X-ray or inside your pocket their were some metal coins or pins left and that made X-Ray to make noise, Now in that case, at least in India(can't say about US), the security man will physically move his hand over your body to physically check meanwhile unavoidingly he will get a "feel" of your "flesh" in that process -- perhaps enjoyable sometimes :D what you will prefer -- A man touching your body? or a man A man looking at some dull x-ray generated nude graphics of your body? I will say the x-ray graphics is preferable because it reduces the time and hassle for all passengers, isn't it?

It doesnt work like that at all. In USA you will have the Security move a pocket size metal detector around your waistline. And if he is not convinced he will take you to a secluded area and then continue it. Even in India I have not see a Cop put his hands inside someone elses' pants. Yeh sab experience aapko hi hota hai Gurudev:hatsoff:

[Lurker]

Lurks you might be comfortable losing your life as opposed to the Govt looking thru your pants .... Iam not .... and its usually the ultra liberals who live in a ideal impractical world that complain about such things ... hence my rants .. nothing abusive.

Who exactly is comfortable losing his life?? This is a very easy assumption that you guys make all the time, dont you? I have elabaorately explained myself in one of the post up above. I would appreciate if you could suggest where am I going wrong instead of assuming I am keen to be martyred in Air anytime soon BB.

[Lurker]

I dont get it ... You are saying that the main purpose of this device is to capture images of our bodies in naked (for whatever reason ) and we are being fooled by the Govt that it is for security measures ? or you trying to say that we are perfectly safe as is and dont need any more gadgets ?

Firstly I would like to see the justification of this. To borrow from my earlier post

a) How does one Justify the new measures? I will give an example. If I am developing an IT project there would be a QA Testing team that catches bugs right towards the end of the lifecycle. The idea of course is to avoid any failings and thereby boost the user confidence in the system. Fair enough. Works very well and most companies use it as part of process one way or the other. Now these QA team also have to justify their existence. Every few months they will send a report to Management suggesting XYZ number of bugs were caught before hand, ABC number of bugs escaped detection and how they are trying to improve. Now if the number of bugs caught(XYZ) is miniscule(or in this case NONE) I can assure you that the QA team would be cut down in numbers or may be phased out entirely. In the very least there wont be any boost in expenses, at is the case up above.

Secondly I am NOT too happy when I am being put through the grind AND I am the one bearing the expenses as also the discomfort.

c) These measures have essentially made travelling unpleasant. It is all fine and dandy if the only plane you catch is one a year to take a trip to India. If you had to be at the Airport 4 hours before now it would be 4 and a half big deal! The problem however is with people who fly more than once per month. Suddenly from a 15-30 minutes you have to be prepared for 2 hours wait at the Airport. A couple of months back I was in Air 4 times inside a month and I had to buy those itsy bitsy gell thingies 4 different times! It was freaking ridiculous. Also if you are a regular flier you will know how these measures ultimately end up on your ticket as "Towards Homeland Security - $15". So not only am I being inconvinciened but I am also paying for it!!

Lastly about the naked files being stored. I am not too sure if they are, or if they are not. So would be jumping the gun if i made a comment either way.

[sandtest]

It doesnt work like that at all. In USA you will have the Security move a pocket size metal detector around your waistline. And if he is not convinced he will take you to a secluded area and then continue it. Even in India I have not see a Cop put his hands inside someone elses' pants. Yeh sab experience aapko hi hota hai Gurudev:hatsoff:

yep, my bad, potable metal detector is moved around body, but in case of doubt the security personnel never hesitates touching by hand if he notices that even after removing stuffs from pockets noise is persisting. Thing is, it is a total waste of time to do manual cheking excercize. Instead a graphic image observed by a distant sitting operated and cleared by a push of button will do the things. saves time and hassle. And most of passengers won't even know, not all are tech savvy. And if images are deleted at regular intervals owing to proper government legislation/rule to do so, I am sure this will be implemented even outside USA at many airports. Of course one community will make a hell out of it, since their "book" clealry forbids watching photo of persons other than your wife or husband...that too nude images, astaghfirulla, tauba astafgaar:omg:

[sandtest]

if you have it, flaunt it. i ll be hitting the gym more rigorously ahead of my next flight.

:hysterical: Now you are talking like a man...that's the spirit:--D

[Lurker]

yep, my bad, potable metal detector is moved around body, but in case of doubt the security personnel never hesitates touching by hand if he notices that even after removing stuffs from pockets noise is persisting.

Then that is wrong Sandy saab. And the Security personnel should be punished for that. Surely instead of punishing him you can not argue to take this step?? As for Govt keeping the pictures I am not too sure of that. I do know that ultimately all these are stored somewhere and often companies dont exactly follow the protocol. I have myself been part of one such experience where we(not me personally) were storing credit information of every American consumer for a long time(to do trend analysis) even though we claimed we did not do it. The information was greatly encrypted and so not useful for anyone outside of the company but yes it was very much there.

[sandtest]

what kind of logic is that? People can not carry their shaving cream, toothpaste on board. So they have to pack it in a seperate luggage, and when you bring an extra luggage you have to pay 15$ for it! Daylight robbery if ever there was one.

Lurker, toothpaste etc. packed in main bag can be retrieved later when you reach your destination. How that will add to extra weight, it's a small toothpaste or gel, hair oil etc. Why you want such items in your handbag only, unless you want to brush your teeth in mid-flight. dant meain durgandh hai kyaa:nervous:

[sandtest]

Then that is wrong Sandy saab. And the Security personnel should be punished for that. Surely instead of punishing him you can not argue to take this step?? As for Govt keeping the pictures I am not too sure of that. I do know that ultimately all these are stored somewhere and often companies dont exactly follow the protocol. I have myself been part of one such experience where we(not me personally) were storing credit information of every American consumer for a long time(to do trend analysis) even though we claimed we did not do it. The information was greatly encrypted and so not useful for anyone outside of the company but yes it was very much there.

now the main point remains physically moving a metal detector around hundreds of passengers everyday is a time consuming and tedious even for security personnels. Instead a body scanned by just walking through a machine like you walk through a small roof and get away. Both simple and hassle free plus maximum use of technology. I will say, America has once again taken the lead in replacing man with more efficient machines. Now as far as storage of photo is concerned -- there are many classified datas handled and destroyed by governmental agencies on regular basis. If say a largest democracy like USA makes a law and makes it manadtory for a third party to verify that x-ray graphics are destroyed without being copied elsewhere, then this matter is setlled. I am sure once a system is built, everything will fall in place....and I am doubly sure that many countrie like India, Europe and China will imitate USA in future for this same technology, since I see a lot of passenger convenience and fast track checking potential in this technology.

[Lurker]

Lurker, toothpaste etc. packed in main bag can be retrieved later when you reach your destination. How that will add to extra weight, it's a small toothpaste or gel, hair oil etc. Why you want such items in your handbag only, unless you want to brush your teeth in mid-flight.

The way it works for a Business traveller Sandy is we have a shaving Bag, consisting of usual products. There could be some more toiletries, such as perfumes and colognes. Now obviously none of these are in the miniature size that Airlines ask their passengers to carry. So what would happen is you can pack in main bag to retrieve it when you reach your destination(like you said). However recently, well almost a year now, most major Airline charge you if you put an extra bag. Only the carry in is free. So if I am carrying just my carry on luggage now I have to check my shaving set and pay 15$ for it!

[flamy]

Gotta agree with CC on the health aspect... :nervous:

[fineleg]

Boss Bhai/Sandy, These measures dont prove too effective for starters. Lurks has presented this argument quite well. I dont know how you are comfortable if someone looks inside ur pants, that is creepy, ain't it?

[sandtest]

Boss Bhai/Sandy, These measures dont prove too effective for starters. Lurks has presented this argument quite well. I dont know how you are comfortable if someone looks inside ur pants, that is creepy, ain't it?

Ever visited any doctor finey? No offence intended, but not just doctor, any random nurse will walk to a patient and insert entire hand "inside" womanhood if he/she gets even a doubt of danger (If you know how pregnancies are diagnosed). How creepy? isn't it? Exactly this was what Talibanis in Afghaqnistan thought, in all their supreme Islamically enlightened wisdom and banned male doctors checking female, resulting in poor Afghani women dying during pregancy due to lack of female doctors. Point is, if any measure by any government helps in ensuring saftey of larger population, NO one should start BSing about pseudo-morality which only proves the BS of Burqa brigade. Well, I am not an amreekan, but you are. So if your government is putting some extra effort at expense of some little so called "freedom" then accept it, or else move somehwere else where you feel there is all morality and freedom which you are otherwise deprived of. For effs sake, I still can't understand how people are so comfortable with some security personnel moving a portable metal detector around their body, instead of just walking below an X-ray scanner, which saves both time and is convenient for everyone.

[fineleg]

sandy, You know very well - a doctor situation is very different than this "random folks" looking through.

[sandtest]

sandy, You know very well - a doctor situation is very different than this "random folks" looking through.

So your main issue is with someone "looking" at a dull X-ray generated 3-D image of your body? Isn't it? Also you are throwing an aura of "pornography" to it while ignoring the benefits associated with it. You consider a Doctors job as a profession, while those security personnels working at an Airport doing their job as some fun or lust for pornography? What kind of madrassa logic is this? Say a doctor puts a hand inside patients body to diagnose perceived danger which will benefit the patience at the end, while compromises severely patients privacy. While an X-Ray image analyser at Airport does much less than this -- he looks at 3-D image of passengers body to determine any danger which will at the end benefit all. And this is a Animation/Toon like 3-D image, which also eliminates the practice making a passenger to remove his cloth (actually making him nude) and undergo physical security check on doubt. What an embarrasment this will be for many. Not to mention a news in past, where Tamil-Hindi actor Kamal Hassan was asked to remove his clothes for security checks in USA. Now definately, with this new system, all these parade can be avoided.

[CC1981]

There is no emperical Data to proove that its ineffective ...

There is no empirical data to prove it is effective in the first place. You must've missed the basic course in science because you keep making the most basic blunder in logic : you do not ask for proof/you CANNOT prove a negetive. You cannot prove 'this is not so, this is ineffective, blahblahblah'. You must prove that 'this is so, this is effective, blah blah blah'. That is non-negotiable in logic, vatz. Now get it through your brain and re-compute. Prove to me that this measure is necessary when there has been no escalation in airport security threats. When you keep adding more security measures ( something that costs MONEY) and it is PUBLIC MONEY that pays for it, you must justify the purchase. With security threats not escalating at airports, additional security expenditure is better known as fear-mongering and whipping up the public frenzy. Which happens to be a common tactic of the conservative gutless cowards- American or our own saffron style.

[CC1981]

Gotta agree with CC on the health aspect... :nervous:

Thank you, you are one of the few here that has some common sense and isnt just a cowardly whipped conservative, who will either rob the people blind or give up all their money for promises about meaningless security measures...maybe tomorrow they'd endorse the idea of a 'thought reader' or some other gyzmo. What is this machine using to get such deep body scans ? X-rays ? MRI type imaging ? FACT is, there isnt a SINGLE imaging procedure in the medical communtiy that'd provide such deep imagery ( Dr.Dhondy, feel free to correct me) and is completely safe. Doctors will strongly advice against repeated x-rays or MRI scans in quick succession and i know for a FACT this is a huge judgement call in the medical community for usage of these scanners for medical purposes as well. ( eg: brain injury, one one hand you NEED to know the latest developments through imagery, on the other the brain CANNOT take sustained imagery when in such fragile state). So now what ? if i am a 500 times a year traveller, i gotto put up with this risk of serious long term bodily harm just to placate a few poosies amongst us, for whom no amount of security measures are enough and they advocate increasing security measures (read: delays and annoyances) and spending despite zero escalation in threat level ? Utter boolsheet. What if you are a brain damaged patient or someone with some disorder ? you are exempt from this deep body scans ? If so then this device is meaningless- i am sure Al Qaeda can find a few brain-damaged suicide bombers (if they arnt already brain damaged) to blow stuff up in an airport, amongst millions of their fanbase. This kind of boolsheet money-guzzling gyzmos serve only to feed the feeling of fear amongst the poosies, who don't stop to think about the actual effectiveness of these gyzmos.Rather sickening. Notice how none of the scaredy-cat poosies here have touched Lurker's point about the necessity of these devices and escalation of security measures at the face of no increasing threat level.

[fineleg]

Doctors will strongly advice against repeated x-rays or MRI scans in quick succession and i know for a FACT this is a huge judgement call in the medical community for usage of these scanners for medical purposes as well.

CC, I've heard this from docs too. what you say is certainly a big concern.