Gated community of India: free from india

[fineleg]

Lurker, Since you claim this is a big problem etc, Are you planning to do something to deal or alleviate it? Or, are you basically expressing your disapproval of it - end of matter? I dont see any huge issues as long as people are not doing illegal things, just deciding where and how they live their lives by buying a home where they can afford it!

[CC1981]

You either practice captialism or socialism. You cant live in a capitalistic society and ask people to lead a socialist life-style.

Eh ? Then what is Canada, UK, Denmark,Sweden,Norway,France, Finland, etc ? They are pucca 'socialism in a capitalist society' economic model. Infact, you don't want to go to pure caiptalism - to do so would be to step back 150 years in history and be a worker in Europe. If you don't know, look it up - the 'total capitalist' societies of mid 1800s Europe was NOT fun to live in. You worked like a slave, had no rights of consistent or timely pay, etc etc. Don't forget that it is SOCIALISM that introduced these very essential ideas such as minimum wage, maximum hours of working, overtime, etc etc. ANyways, i think we are arguing from two different tangents here. You seem to be more interested in the capitalist aspects of trade relations,free market and industrial competition - i have very little reservations about that. Mind you, be careful arguing for free market economy in all aspects : for eg, if we were to give in to free market principles completely, our agriculture sector would be utterly overwhelmed by the corporate-based agri industry of the west -without 'socialist' control of that sector, the farmer suicides wont be in thousands but in millions. My argument for socialism is from a silghtly different tangent - i am in favour of largely a free market system but i also support socialism in society, since socialist elements like minimum wage, max. obligated work hours, unemployment insurence, social security, rent control etc. are all vital parts of the most successful economies in the world today and vital part of social stability.

[Ram]

Lurks, will resond to your previous post soon. Apologies for the delay.

[Lurker]

Lurker, Since you claim this is a big problem etc, Are you planning to do something to deal or alleviate it? Or, are you basically expressing your disapproval of it - end of matter?

Fineleg, I have seen you utter similar sentiments before and I have largerly ignored it. Simply because it is the classical case of not having enough meat in your argument and so instead go after the person. There could of course be a case of you being curious as well but since I have seen this line uttered a few times, specially when it comes to NRIs/IT and their affect on Indian economy, I am not sure if I should grant you that. Plus of course there is always that chance that inspite of you asking you may not actually choose to sit down and read a monster of my posts and so I am generally not too keen on spending 20 minutes carving my response. Still I shall give it one go, and will keep it restricted to context of this thread. The way I look at the Economic Development and its affect on current generation(specially IT) is that they follow in either of these 3 groups: a) Comprises of folks who think all's swell with Indian economy. This group basically comprises of people(largely) who have either never spent a minute of their life in an Indian village, or have never really had to work their way up the ladder. I am inclined to say for most of these people it is a case of being in the right place at the right time and so they are very removed from the actual facts on the ground. This group might contain many self-made people as well but they would be more exception than the norm. b) Comprises of people who realize that Indian economy ,while on the up, is in a very dangerous phase right now where it is creating big spheres of affluence and even bigger spheres of poverty. At the same time they are powerless enough to make any noise about it. This powerless emotion is not meant in a derogatory way, it could be due to a variety of reason ranging from family responsibility to just trying to make life better for oneself. Regardless the second lot comprise of people who know for a certainty that all's not well but they would much rather make hay while the sun shines rather than be critical. And so they follow the idiom - If you cant beat them Join them. c) Comprises of people who realize the danger the Indian economy is spiralling into and are not averse to voice out their opinion. They understand that in a nation where Average Annual Income is 1 lakh, it is impossible to buy a sham of house for anything less than 35-40 lakhs in any of the big city. In most of the modern towns a simple 2 bedroom house costs upwards of 50 lakhs(and I am being liberal here). Now who amongst us seriously thinks that anyone apart from IT people can afford that? Can a school teacher do so? Or a college professor? Or a man in Army? Banks? You name it. I obviously belong to the 3rd lot and even though I am a NRI and in IT(and hence could get into lot 1 and 2), I choose to realize the imminent danger we are setting into and belong to 3. xxx

[fineleg]

Lurker, 1. Thanks for the detailed post. Appreciate it (really). 2. I did read your post fully - and if you write more, I will still read it. I will respect the time u spent for it. 3. As you said yourself in your post above: "The way I look at ..." I certainly understand this is your viewpoint, and am not degrading it, merely questioning it. 4. I know in the past we had ONE thread that spiralled out of control - but after that we've had a reasonably good interaction in this forum - my intention here was not to malign you but to really ask. 5. You say you belong to the group that "voices the opinion on danger". My question was to see if you do or plan something beyond voicing. The reason I say that is otherwise dont you belong to category 2 above. You voice, but other than that you are looking after your own needs primarily (and for the most part), right? Thats why I asked.

[Lurker]

5. You say you belong to the group that "voices the opinion on danger". My question was to see if you do or plan something beyond voicing. The reason I say that is otherwise dont you belong to category 2 above. You voice, but other than that you are looking after your own needs primarily (and for the most part), right? Thats why I asked.

Thats a very easy question to raise but very difficult to answer. Amongst others here are a few points why: a) One can easily come across as being preachy without it being intentional. And worse one can easily put himself/herself on the pedestal and say - Hey look I do this for India, what about you dimwits now?? In the very least it will affect others and I am not sure if I would want to be judgemental of others. b) By and large its pretty safe to say that I am one of the more open people around here. Most people know wher I live(in USA and India), what I do, what I look like, few even know me by name. I wont be surprised if there are people on cyberworld that may actually know me without me even having a clue about them. So there is always the danger of divulging too much. So in that context I would answer your question without hoping to come across as being judgemental or narcisstic, and also to contain a bit about my own privacy. The issue at bare is what is the role of a citizen in a Developing country/economy. Does he/she have a role/responsibility towards his nation at all? Or is his responsibility solely to criticize Government and put every single blame on it without ever taking some responsibility?? As an individual I support Bottoms-Up approach instead of Top-down. I am more for making roots(citizens) stronger which in affect make a country strong, as against wishing we have a good leader that will take the country in the next phase. The question of course then becomes what exactly I do in real life to support this methodology. Well I would give two lifestyle choices that I have made over the years. 1) For my entire stay in US I have lived by myself, have had a car and mostly been Independent. This has meant that I have not taken any room partners, depended on others to drive me around, haggled for who cooked when and who did not clean when etc. I raise this because when NRIs come overseas they have two choices: a) lead a good lifestyle and generally speaking create a good impression. b) live in a pack, save more money and send remittances back home. Point a) shall save you say 10 K a year, point b) can often save you 2-3 times that number. Now I can understand certain people having issues in family, saving money etc but I am constantly amazed as how many people do this to double the savings and then use that saving to buy properties in India. See it is already getting preachy. 2) In India I have tons of relatives who are now into this property "investment" thingy. As in my cousin sister having 4 bunglows in Delhi, and wanting to sell them and get 6 new properties. And I will constantly discourage them because what good is it for them? Local people who actually need a house, cant afford to buy it, and people who have the house just keep making money as "rent". I personally have not added to the plight of housing getting away from the common Indians, even though if I wanted to I could afford a house in most towns(atleast as of now). I also dont see a point why I would spend 75 lakhs to live in a 2-3 bedroom flat inside a gated community in Gurgaon, Mumbai etc. I would much rather spend 35 lakhs and live lavishly in a two storied house of my own with dozen rooms, one for library, one for gym, another for indoor sports. Of course this would be done in a Ranchi, Lucknow etc and frankly thats where I see myself. Okey dokey I hope I was able to answer your question without overstepping the limits I had mentioned before. xxx

[fineleg]

Thanks Lurker - I appreciate ur response. I got some answers, however I have some more pending questions, will ask them later gradually. Thanks!

[Lurker]

What a difference 50 days make to a country, its real estate and the collective pscyche(sp?). Flats are currently lying vacant from Mumbai to Gurgaon. Builders are jumping over each other and offering free car, buy 1 get 1 free and what have you. Banks are getting sceptical and not lending as much and value of property, in general, is shooting down. The danger here is the price falls down for a year or two and then climbs way faster than it came down making real estate impossible for middle class. For now I definitely welcome the falling prices.

[THX_1138]

The fiscal advisor of the Eisenhower administration said that magnitude of concern and demand for social reform is inversely proportional to the distance between the resource providers and the resource users. The further you position a community from the infrastructure it stands upon: the poor farmers, the laboring carpenters, the ill fed orphans, the choking miners etc, lesser is the concern amongst the social elite for the plight of the people who help make their lives comfortable. If we all had to live next to a coal power plant, not one of us would protest subsidies for wind and solar energy; if our neighborhoods were interspersed with slums were our maids and servants lived, we would all be making time to volunteer at evening schools for the underprivileged, and if we all lived the life of a grotesquely underpaid soldier, not one of us would should the insane rhetoric of war. my father understood this and as a practice, every first saturday of the month he would take me and my brother to a slum near us and help do menial tasks like install light bulbs or plant banana trees... if we all took time to undertake such an endeavor, we wont be as oblivious to the plight of the millions in our country and world over. anderson cooper during one of his shows about africa stated something similar: if africa was next door to us, we would reexamine our lives a lot more.

[fineleg]

What a difference 50 days make to a country, its real estate and the collective pscyche(sp?). Flats are currently lying vacant from Mumbai to Gurgaon. Builders are jumping over each other and offering free car, buy 1 get 1 free and what have you. Banks are getting sceptical and not lending as much and value of property, in general, is shooting down. The danger here is the price falls down for a year or two and then climbs way faster than it came down making real estate impossible for middle class. For now I definitely welcome the falling prices.

Housing bubbles have to burst, but still demand and supply will dictate how low prices get.