panesarv Posted September 12, 2008 Posted September 12, 2008 While there were riots in Delhi, there were curfews placed in Punjab. Why???? So that nobody talks to anyone. No one goes to work. Who will print newspapers if no one was going to work. No news is spread. As Ludhianvi said, it was totally blacked out. After the riots, you weren't 'allowed' to talk about the riots. Also, why doesn't the younger generations know about, when we know about other riots that happened?
panesarv Posted September 12, 2008 Posted September 12, 2008 b) Right after Indira Gandhi assasination Sikhs have been tacidly kept away from some of the top Defense Groups' date=' including NSG(National Security Guards, also known as Black Cats). [/quote'] Thats obvious. As it was "sikh" bodyguards who killed Indira Gandhi. Sikhs weren't given jobs or were fired from jobs because they were "sikhs". Sikhs weren't hired anymore. Only reason Sikhs survived well was that there were a lot of sikh organizations/institutions that gave them jobs.
Lurker Posted September 12, 2008 Posted September 12, 2008 Sure' date=' there may have been less media.[b'] From what I gather, it is worth noting that the entire Punjab region was blackened out and all media were basically cut prior to Operation BlueStar and hundreds of temples were raided across the state. I am not going to be able to say what happened inside Punjab and someone who faced it first hand would be able to shed more light on it. What I can attest to is that Operation Bluestar was covered widely in Indian media. At the time there was this popular weekly Hindi magazine called Ravivar(Sunday) that carried a long series of articles about the Operation. It was done in a serial manner so it ran for 3-4 months if I am not mistaken. My Dad is as avid magazine collector so I remember reading many of them years on. A couple of things I can recall are: a) The magazine went in depth about the codes in which the terrorists communicated inside th Golden Temple. Since the Temple is an extremely large structure they had to communicate using radios. Usage of radios had the danger of being picked up by Indian Army. Thus codes were used. These codes were detected by Indians and later decoded. A couple of those that I remember very well, although I dont recollect what they mean now are Laal Meerchi badi teekhi hai Fauz ko Alwida karke aata hoon. (You will nowhere find this kind of detailed information so first of all you should probably thank me for it lol..Secondly I would say the magazine being a Hindi periodical must have translated from Gurumukhi. Thirdly the magazine itself has shut down as have most of popular magazines of the time so if you seriously are looking for it you may have to check in libraries). b) Black and white pictures of Golden Temple. In those days colour pictures were more luxury than the norm. I can remember vividly the pictures of Golden Temple before, during and after. Before was a beautiful sight, during the course it painted a very sad picture, right after was the picture of how Senior Sikh leaders (Panch Pyaare) were allowed to go in first(after Armed forces were satisfied) to clean up the Operation. xxx
Lurker Posted September 12, 2008 Posted September 12, 2008 Also, why doesn't the younger generations know about, when we know about other riots that happened? What other riots do you know about?? Here is what I want you to do: a) Dont use Google or any other search engine. b) Tell me about the riots that have happened in Bihar in past 30 years. I would be really interested in seeing how you can back up your claim about "knowing about other riots". xxx
punjabi_khota Posted September 12, 2008 Posted September 12, 2008 I was a year old, and my grandparents tell me there were tanks in the streets of chandigarh. I dunno if thats true though.
ludhianvi Posted September 12, 2008 Posted September 12, 2008 a) The magazine went in depth about the codes in which the terrorists communicated inside th Golden Temple. Since the Temple is an extremely large structure they had to communicate using radios. Usage of radios had the danger of being picked up by Indian Army. Thus codes were used. These codes were detected by Indians and later decoded. xxx :hysterical: Sorry that's all I can offer in this debate as I'm mainly here for cricket and chillaxing
panesarv Posted September 12, 2008 Posted September 12, 2008 I will tell you honestly. I'm the biggest "current events retard" ever. I never watch news. I'll ask my dad questions like, "votes for government are gonna be next week, wtf?" My GK (general knowledge) is like the worst ever. I hate Civics [current events]. My friend told me about the bomb blasts that happened in India recently. I was a cricket crazy kid; flew kites; fooled around streets; was never home. Never studied in India. Never did anything else. So, don't expect my knowledge to be great. I know about Bomb blasts in Mumbai in early 1990s. I know that things are quite bad in Kolkata area between Hindus and Muslims. I know about the riots that happened during 1947. Things in Sikkim aren't great either. Gujrat is the most recent one. Don't know anything about Bihar expect for its poverty, floods and droughts. Again don't expect me to know any of the **** that happened in this world. But the people I'm talking about are more into this "civics [current events]" stuff and have much more knowledge than me, who don't know much about this riot. Why did the lady say that many people don't know about it, when they know about other riots? p.s. I didn't use any search engines or anything.
Desi Cartman Posted September 12, 2008 Posted September 12, 2008 :hysterical: Sorry that's all I can offer in this debate as I'm mainly here for cricket and chillaxing dude they were terrorists ... My real uncle was killed by these terrorists in punjab at gun point in a sabzi mandi .. so i dont think there is anything wrong in calling them terrorists ...
Lurker Posted September 12, 2008 Posted September 12, 2008 I know about Bomb blasts in Mumbai in early 1990s. I know that things are quite bad in Kolkata area between Hindus and Muslims. I know about the riots that happened during 1947. Things in Sikkim aren't great either. Gujrat is the most recent one. Don't know anything about Bihar expect for its poverty, floods and droughts. I appreciate your candid response and my question should essentially have told you the holes in your theory that people knew about "other" riots and not Sikh. Of the ones you mentioned Mumbai riots gets news coverage because it has happened on more than one occassions. Between 1990 and 2008 you have had more than 1 riot and over half a dozen bomb blast, all of them due to religious reasons. 1992 Mumbai bomb blast remains till date the most vile terrorist attack of its kind in India. Kolkatta area has not had a riot of note in past 20 years. I am not gonna say not 1 man has lost life due to communal riots becaue riots unfortunately do happen in India, however amongst the leading riots(like Mumbai or Delhi) Kolkatta doesnt fall in top list. Same with Sikkim. Bihar has had a couple of horrendous riots, including Bhagalpur in late 80s. You will not hear much about it. The one that people talk about quite a bit is Gujrat of course. This is because it is the most recent(2002) and by all accounts as vile as we have ever had in our country. The huge media coverage ensured that this riot was covered in India as well as abroad. As an example the leading perpetrator Narendra Modi is still disallowed visa to USA. That single action is enough to send a bit of message. Imagine Rajeev Gandhi not getting visa to USA. Had that happened you will have a different opinion of him. In a way, and I dont mean this with disrespect, you will not understand the difference in the world between 1984 and 2004 unless you have lived the era. When you have 100 channels instead of 1 you will have more media coverage. Just as you wont be too aware of any other riots that happened in early 80s similarly many people are not aware of Sikh riots, however people my age who were around the time have very vivid memories. But the people I'm talking about are more into this "civics [current events]" stuff and have much more knowledge than me, who don't know much about this riot. Why did the lady say that many people don't know about it, when they know about other riots? That argument is not only valid until the lady tells us all what "other" riots do people know about?? If it is Gujrat then I have already answered it. if it is Mumbai then I have answered that too. However if she is talking about Bhagalpur then I would love to know her reasons. I cant buy an open-ended statement like - People know about other riots without mentioning what these other riots are, when it happened and so on. xxxx
Lurker Posted September 12, 2008 Posted September 12, 2008 :hysterical: Sorry that's all I can offer in this debate as I'm mainly here for cricket and chillaxing And I would have appreciated that response early in the debate. It is much better to tell the other person where you are coming from instead of starting something you can not finish, making away with a slide remark and a smilie. xx
ludhianvi Posted September 12, 2008 Posted September 12, 2008 dude they were terrorists ... My real uncle was killed by these terrorists in punjab at gun point in a sabzi mandi .. so i dont think there is anything wrong in calling them terrorists ... Sorry to hear about that but I was referring was to the hundreds of pilgrims caught in the middle of the attack in the complex. They were probably labeled as terrorists as well which included women and children. And I would have appreciated that response early in the debate. It is much better to tell the other person where you are coming from instead of starting something you can not finish, making away with a slide remark and a smilie. xx Fair enough, I'll finish it here. But what I'd to add is that the timing of the raid was completely off. The complex was attacked on an auspicious day where there were hundreds if not thousands of pilgrims coming from around the world including women and children. These innocent pilgrims were caught in the middle of nowhere. Furthermore, tens of artifacts were stolen or burnt from the library by the army and have not been returned since then. And why would media b cut from the region for days? As for the OP, its clear that the government does not want a reminder of what happened in '84.
Lurker Posted September 12, 2008 Posted September 12, 2008 Fair enough, I'll finish it here. But what I'd to add is that the timing of the raid was completely off. The complex was attacked on an auspicious day where there were hundreds if not thousands of pilgrims coming from around the world including women and children. These innocent pilgrims were caught in the middle of nowhere. Furthermore, tens of artifacts were stolen or burnt from the library by the army and have not been returned since then. And why would media b cut from the region for days? As for the OP, its clear that the government does not want a reminder of what happened in '84. Since you have already finished it I am not going to give you further info or waste my time. I will end it with a simple assertion. Sikh militancy ended after 1984, give or take a couple of years. And if Indian Government was indeed such a murder of innocents which you seem to observe then surely this would have never happened. Give it a thought. xxx
THX_1138 Posted September 13, 2008 Posted September 13, 2008 would someone shed some light on what happened in 1984... the precursors and then eventual events that occurred... and please no Wikipedia cut and paste!
panesarv Posted September 14, 2008 Posted September 14, 2008 I think I'll agree with you Lurker. Some of the things I've *heard* about the riots are that about 200 "terrorists [i don't know if they were terrorists or not]" inside the Golden Temple were able to stop/fight/defend the Indian Army for several days. After the Indian Army finally got inside Golden Temple, they started killing all the innocent people that had come to visit the temple, in frustration [the army]. Curfews were placed in Punjab during the time Sikhs were being slaughtered in Delhi [my parents tell me that]. My parents also tell me about some of ugly things that were done to Sikhs [Amu movie shows some of them]. Most of the trains going from Delhi to Punjab were attacked. All sikhs on those trains were killed. My Nana Ji [Grandfather] and Fufar Ji [uncle] were also around Delhi area during that time but were lucky enough to survive.
panesarv Posted September 14, 2008 Posted September 14, 2008 Do you have any idea how few people (as a percentage of the population) can READ in India today' date=' let alone in the early 80s (which will give you figures HALF of todays i garantee you) ???[/quote'] Lets say 10 people out of a 1000 people knew how to read. 1 person would have told the news to another 10 people. Those 10 people would spread the news to another 100 people and so on. But as the curfews were placed, no one could talk to each other. No newspapers could be printed as there were curfews. No one knew what was happening in Delhi in Punjab.
kooljatt Posted September 14, 2008 Posted September 14, 2008 have a luk at this video [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kjx8IaWClMw]YouTube - Search for Justice[/ame]
kooljatt Posted September 14, 2008 Posted September 14, 2008 .....and this [ame= - 1984 Sikh Holocaust[/ame]
Rajiv Posted September 14, 2008 Posted September 14, 2008 Don't forget the trend of cutting hair to hide your sikh identity
Lurker Posted September 14, 2008 Posted September 14, 2008 I think I'll agree with you Lurker. Some of the things I've *heard* about the riots are that about 200 "terrorists [i don't know if they were terrorists or not]" inside the Golden Temple were able to stop/fight/defend the Indian Army for several days. After the Indian Army finally got inside Golden Temple, they started killing all the innocent people that had come to visit the temple, in frustration [the army]. would someone shed some light on what happened in 1984... the precursors and then eventual events that occurred... and please no Wikipedia cut and paste! I will try to answer both of you Panesar and THX with a brief background. The initial question here was - Why isnt anti-Sikh riots of 84 receive ample coverage? The discussion has now come to a point where another poster(THX) wants to know what happened in 84, precursors and so on. This itself should tell you both, and others, one thing and that is not only are the 84 riots slowly wiped off the people's memory but also the circumstances before and after. And so it is not fair to say only part has been "forgotten". Punjab in early 80s was a killing mine-field. Think of Jammu and Kashmir today, now imagine a state worse than that!! Get a picture? Well that was Punjab for you. As per KPS Gill in less than 1 year almost 2000 people were killed by the terrorists, that is about 6 people per day. Do you hear that kind of violence in J&K? And no I am not advocating J&K extremism just painting a picture here. The situation had gotten so bad that Air India flights were hijacked. If I remember correctly in less than 1 year there were 3 or so hijacking by Sikh extremist. Those who spoke against, namely media people, were silenced, probably the most famous name being that of Punjab Kesari editor. To put it briefly the situation was real bad. How did it come to happen? Well I would say it probably started with Indira Gandhi's lust for power. At the time Akalis were the strongest force in Punjab and the people who later became Sikh extremists were basically a bunch of nuisance creators who was used by Congress. Soon enough this bunch became too powerful for its master and started demanding more. Punjab being a border country received easy support from Pakistan and the extremists were armed to the teeth. As always not all the grievance were bollocks, some were quite genuine, however the idea that didnt go down well was secession. There were bunch of factions, the most powerful being the one led by Bhindrawale. This group soon enough realized that Golden Temple would be a ideal place to hide as it was the most revered spot by Sikhs and hence Cops would not enter. By this time the extremists were not fearful of cops anyway. It was the Army they were preparing against. Now this is the phase which too many people tend to forget. These extremists were asked by Administration, Punjab Govt, Indian Govt to vacate the most scared place for Sikhs but they didnt. In fact they kept beefing themselves. Soon enough it was clear Indian Army would have to go inside. When Indira Gandhi asked Indian Army Chief LK Sinha to prepare a plan of action he refused saying it was against his morals to attack place of worship(against something noone shall tell you). He was removed and his deputy AS Vaidya chaulked out the plan(incidentally AS Vaidya, Indian Army Chief, was gunned down by Sikh extremists a year after he retired) and along with General Brar the Temple was finally taken down. And just so we know the Army that took Golden Temple back was not your regular infantry but elite Commando troops. So you can imagine the firepower the Sikh extremists took with them inside the sanctum sanctorum. After this you probably know much anyway. Indian Gandhi was assasinated, Sikh riots followed and so on. The situation was really bad between 84-86 but 2 good things happened: a) Punjab Police were led by 2 super leaders Julius Ribero and KPS Gill who met bullet for bullet and put an end to the extremism. b) After Bhindrawale there was no good leadership and so even though many factions upped the ante it wa basically a case of chicken without a head running everywhere. Bottomline, if people dont talk about it, it is not such a bad thing. Those who think Indian Army woke up one fine morning and just started killing people in Golden Temple are wrong. Fact is Punjab extremism was probably the most bloody seccessionist movement India has seen till date. xxx
panesarv Posted September 16, 2008 Posted September 16, 2008 Lurker, I would like to know the source of the facts above. You probably don't know about KPS Gill. He was a big jack*****. Police was so corrupt at that moment. If you guys have seen Amu movie, you'll see that Police didn't do anything to stop the riots. The source is my mother, who lived in that era and she is a primary source. Police would stand on street corners, while Hindus were killing Sikhs, not stopping anyone. Police would start labeling random young kids as terrorists and kill them up to get PROMOTIONS. If they found 3 terrorists, they'll add another 5 innocent people to them and the Police Chief would say that we killed 8 terrorists. Government, "Promotion". Police did it all for promotions. Don't expect anything of the police and KPS Gill.
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