Lets win BG Trophy at Nagpur - whats the game plan?

[Guest HariSampath]

i stand by my post ' date=' no way demeaning the 3 guys u mentioned but this is too risky for them. in fact even with Dhoni as captain, we had a very late declaration in Mohali. winning the series isw more important for BCCI and even this selection committee rather than 1-0 or 2-0 score line. but 1-1 is as good as the loss of a huge opportunity.[/quote'] I completely agree with your idea that BCCI, Dhoni and Srikkanth, all of them want a series win. No doubts. BUT I can assure you their thinking is not as like " Lets keep Dravid in the team so as to escape defeat", because no one believes that Dravid ( after his last terrible 6 test series, and currently on verge of being dropped) is a better bet to save the test series, instead of those like Sachin, VVS , Gambhir or Sehwag or SG, who have all piled on runs last 2-3 weeks. In fact in the BCCI's scheme of things, they badly want to thrash Aus 2-0 under Dhoni, ease out the seniors, and herald the new era of Indian cricket. And thats what is happening now. Dravid is by no means a key player in this plan, in fact he is a liability. If , for example, GG and Sehwag get us off to a 80 run start in 1 hr on the first morning of a test, Dravid coming in will spoil the momentum, struggling to save his test place, scratch around for 80 balls , make 22 , get out , in the process make Sachin get out, enable VVS to play sheet anchor, etc...and India will end the day at 230-5..and THIS is NOT something anyone wants. what they want is a 330-4 by day 1 , and go on to win the test match. Dravid cant help this plan.

[Rajan]

oh...a small addition...the last test is at Nagpur, hometown of the Vidharba cricket association...Sashank Manohar's backyard...you think he doesnt want a series win there , after taking over as BCCI Prez ?? or do you think he will go out for a draw *shivering* with fright about Lee and Johnson and praying Dravid saves India ??? LOL like i posted earlier, i am not getting in to the relative merits and demerits of 5 batsmen, 5 bowlers theory to win the test. all i am saying is, it will not happen, whether Srikkanth, Manohar and Dhoni are decision makers or the old set of Venggy,Pawar,Kumble. it is based on my understanding of how BCCI approaches the deciding test. meanwhile try to convince Srikkanth with the stats, give it a try. but it wont happen. may be u can wait till thursday morning toss to know whether i am wrong or u r wrong. until that time, v can continue to agree to disagree

[Sachinism]

Nagpur is Dravid's last chance, he has a brilliant record there and if he doesn't perform or even if he does, I reckon he may decide its time to go

[Rajan]

And thats what is happening now. Dravid is by no means a key player in this plan, in fact he is a liability. If , for example, GG and Sehwag get us off to a 80 run start in 1 hr on the first morning of a test, Dravid coming in will spoil the momentum, struggling to save his test place, scratch around for 80 balls , make 22 , get out , in the process make Sachin get out, enable VVS to play sheet anchor, etc...and India will end the day at 230-5..and THIS is NOT something anyone wants. what they want is a 330-4 by day 1 , and go on to win the test match. Dravid cant help this plan. ======= Dravid had done very well at No:6 in an australia series, when Laxman did well at No.3. may be they can try this as it would ensure that the momentum given by openers would not be lost and Dravid would be around with the lower order in case the top order falls cheaply.

[Guest HariSampath]

Of course , I had been aggressively pursuing this issue with Cheeka for many weeks. In fact let me tell you ( to the extent I can say things publicly), this transition process was already put in place by the 3rd test in SL. I was not posting here on ICF for several months; but I know EXACTLY what Cheeka was saying here in Chennai, watching that series. And then towards the end of that series itself, he got the offer for Chairman, which was formalised much later . Of course it doesnt take much statistical convincing...NO Indian batter has ever been tolerated for SIX test series failure. Past batting greats like Vengsarkar, Vishwanath, Mohinder etc were all unceremoniously dropped for much much lesser, and the whole cricketing world is seeing what a complete and comprehensive failure Dravid has been over 25 test matches ...no less Dont imagine folks take it lightly. Dravid MAY get to play one more test, but that will be conditional. He is certainly NOT playing the Eng series. Whats more...here is a small secret. BOTH Ganguly and Dravid were offered the option of announcing their retirement and making this the last series, before the first test. Ganguly took it wisely. Dravid refused. So you can imagine what the BCCI and selection committe would do.

[Rajan]

Of course , I had been aggressively pursuing this issue with Cheeka for many weeks. In fact let me tell you ( to the extent I can say things publicly), this transition process was already put in place by the 3rd test in SL. I was not posting here on ICF for several months; but I know EXACTLY what Cheeka was saying here in Chennai, watching that series. And then towards the end of that series itself, he got the offer for Chairman, which was formalised much later . do.

by the way,what was my first reaction after hearing the news of Srikkanth's appointment as Chief selector? I checked ICF for your comments.i was terribly disappointed that there was no trace of you, because i myself was away after protesting ur infraction.did not know what happened after that. later on seeing ur thread about Anand's world championship, I logged in and posted after a long time, though i had been visiting the site a few times. ok, what happens if Dravid scores a 250 balls hundred in the final test next week? i some how feel that he would play the next series against england and would be a moderate success too. also i am not able to agree that Badri, Yuvi or Kohli are suitable replacements. we may have to play Laxman at #3, and the replacement for Ganguly ay #6. Dravid can play #5 for another series.

[diegovegaz]

gambhir is likely to miss harbhajan will surely be back mishra will give him excellent company the best game plan would be not to send dravid opening dravid as an opener would sure be running through the minds of the indian think tank i don't doubt dravid's ability as an opener, but he is best suited at 3

[Guest HariSampath]

by the way,what was my first reaction after hearing the news of Srikkanth's appointment as Chief selector? I checked ICF for your comments.i was terribly disappointed that there was no trace of you, because i myself was away after protesting ur infraction.did not know what happened after that.

Oh...me staying away from *posting*....not reading ICF was more to do with my time and various other considerations...and btw, please understand that ICF "infractions" had nothing to do with my absence, they had never even pressed it, and I was here after that too...and so many ICFers were always in touch with me by PM, email etc always, and so was I. In fact I was following the SL series here all the time and was over the moon when Ajanta Mendis cleaned up the Indian middle order *exactly* as I had predicted he would...even when he had made int'l debut in Windies. I love ICF....and ICF loves me, thats never gonna change :two_thumbs_up: :icflove:

ok, what happens if Dravid scores a 250 balls hundred in the final test next week? i some how feel that he would play the next series against england and would be a moderate success too. also i am not able to agree that Badri, Yuvi or Kohli are suitable replacements. we may have to play Laxman at #3, and the replacement for Ganguly ay #6. Dravid can play #5 for another series.

Raj...here's the deal. IF Dravid gets to play in Nagpur and gets a 250 ball 100. Wonderful..I would be happy for him AND India ! But still, I would say his presence in the Indian 11 is not justified and he has to go. See, for judging a player like Dravid ( not some new batter), we apply slightly better standards than for a rookie. We see the performance, look at their average and consisitency, and also most importantly ask a vital question " How many match impacting innings is he playing", meaning either hugely contributing to a team win, or at least hugely impacting a test and saving it. In Dravid's case there are 3 very big negative points that even a 200 in Nagpur cannot set right. 1. He has failed in 6 test series continuously. Meaning he has scored on an average just ONE 50 per series for 2 years. That is a very very big , and sustained failure. You just cannot call it "loss of form". It is loss of ability . period. 2. He has averaged less than 30 over 25 test matches, and also just got 320+ runs in last 15 test innings. So his last year is an abject and complete failure. 3. This is the MOST vital point. The above 2 points can also be excused by a considerable stretch of license...IF he had in this period , played 4-5 innings that were "match impacting". In Dravid's case he has played ONE inngs : a 90 in Perth that contributed to a win, and remember it was among so amny others' efforts. In 19 test matches , if a top class cricketer has produced JUST ONE match impacting innings, apart from the 2 points mentioned above...lets sit back, relax and accept the truth. Its over. And the player too knows it. So even if Dravid gets a 200, I would hope he doesnt continue, but retires immediately. His cricket is gone, its as simple as that. Just look at the alternative. Lets say he plays in Nagpur ( already he has been under flak for 1 year and more so no, but still if he plays), AND he fails. Its gonna get terrible for him. And then, if he doesnt retire, guess what ? he will be dropped. Simple enough. Is this what Dravid's genuine fans want ? This is what Srikkanth has been trying to get him to agree. See how Ganguly and Kumble have salvaged respect. If Dravid fails, and is dropped...how ugly it will be that people will say " he stuck on with zero performance for 2 years, and had to be thrown out"....is this what the gentleman Dravid wants? or his fans ? Worse case is...that even after a Nagpur failure, if he is given 1-2 more chances against England...and still if he gets one or two 20-30 inngs and fails ? then what ?. It will get disgracefully shameful for him. Thats why I hope he retires immediately....should have taken up Srikkanth's offer along with Ganguly, even now its not too late. Hope he does the right thing...plays in Nagpur as his last test, gets a very useful 60-70...helps India win the BG trophy, and say "bye bye folks, thank you"..Thats the Dravid I want to see go out...NOT a Dravid thrown out in disgrace.

[fineleg]

what is RD's scores listed inn by inn in last 25 tests he has played?

[graphic23]

5  	103  	66  	0  	0  	7.57  	2  	lbw  	2  	 	v Australia  	Melbourne  	26 Dec 2007  	Test # 1855
16 	154 	114 	2 	0 	14.03 	1 	lbw 	4 		v Australia 	Melbourne 	26 Dec 2007 	Test # 1855
53 	240 	160 	9 	0 	33.12 	2 	caught 	2 		v Australia 	Sydney 	2 Jan 2008 	Test # 1857
38 	152 	103 	6 	0 	36.89 	1 	caught 	4 		v Australia 	Sydney 	2 Jan 2008 	Test # 1857
93 	278 	183 	14 	0 	50.81 	3 	caught 	1 		v Australia 	Perth 	16 Jan 2008 	Test # 1862
3 	5 	5 	0 	0 	60.00 	4 	caught 	3 		v Australia 	Perth 	16 Jan 2008 	Test # 1862
18 	73 	55 	0 	0 	32.72 	3 	caught 	1 		v Australia 	Adelaide 	24 Jan 2008 	Test # 1863
11* 	98 	64 	2 	0 	17.18 	3 	retired notout 	3 		v Australia 	Adelaide 	24 Jan 2008 	Test # 1863
111 	396 	291 	15 	0 	38.14 	3 	caught 	2 		v South Africa 	Chennai 	26 Mar 2008 	Test # 1870
3 	51 	26 	0 	0 	11.53 	3 	bowled 	1 		v South Africa 	Ahmedabad 	3 Apr 2008 	Test # 1871
17 	55 	41 	2 	0 	41.46 	3 	caught 	3 		v South Africa 	Ahmedabad 	3 Apr 2008 	Test # 1871
29 	151 	106 	4 	0 	27.35 	3 	caught 	2 		v South Africa 	Kanpur 	11 Apr 2008 	Test # 1873
18* 	36 	29 	4 	0 	62.06 	4 	not out 	4 		v South Africa 	Kanpur 	11 Apr 2008 	Test # 1873
14 	55 	35 	2 	0 	40.00 	3 	bowled 	2 		v Sri Lanka 	Colombo (SSC) 	23 Jul 2008 	Test # 1882
10 	41 	30 	1 	0 	33.33 	5 	caught 	3 		v Sri Lanka 	Colombo (SSC) 	23 Jul 2008 	Test # 1882
2 	7 	6 	0 	0 	33.33 	3 	caught 	1 		v Sri Lanka 	Galle 	31 Jul 2008 	Test # 1884
44 	133 	92 	6 	0 	47.82 	3 	lbw 	3 		v Sri Lanka 	Galle 	31 Jul 2008 	Test # 1884
10 	52 	29 	0 	0 	34.48 	3 	lbw 	1 		v Sri Lanka 	Colombo (PSS) 	8 Aug 2008 	Test # 1886
68 	226 	166 	6 	0 	40.96 	3 	caught 	3 		v Sri Lanka 	Colombo (PSS) 	8 Aug 2008 	Test # 1886
51 	149 	104 	7 	0 	49.03 	3 	lbw 	2 		v Australia 	Bangalore 	9 Oct 2008 	Test # 1887
5 	15 	13 	1 	0 	38.46 	3 	caught 	4 		v Australia 	Bangalore 	9 Oct 2008 	Test # 1887
39 	118 	70 	7 	0 	55.71 	3 	bowled 	1 		v Australia 	Mohali 	17 Oct 2008 	Test # 1889
DNB 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	- 	3 		v Australia 	Mohali 	17 Oct 2008 	Test # 1889
11 	36 	31 	1 	0 	35.48 	3 	caught 	1 		v Australia 	Delhi 	29 Oct 2008 	Test # 1891
11 	52 	37 	2 	0 	29.72 	4 	bowled 	3 		v Australia 	Delhi 	29 Oct 2008 	Test # 1891

[fineleg]

thanks graphic23, 3 50s 1 century and another score of 93 (close to century) 5 significant innings in 24 innings.(one DNB) Not looking good for RD. I hope he can summon the fighter in him and get a big one at Nagpur. Else its looking tough. C'mon Rahul! Get the cover drive and flicks and cut shots back in flow.

[Guest HariSampath]

Maybe you call it "5 significant innings", finey....but except for the Perth 90...there has been NO "match impacting innings", in 25 tests, which is terrible...hope RD goes out...NOW, and with his head held high...already most of the cricket world is looking at these same records and asking " what the hell", so not much time left....not to salvage career, thats over...but JUST to save respect

[fineleg]

Maybe you call it "5 significant innings"' date=' finey....but except for the Perth 90...there has been NO "match impacting innings", in 25 tests, which is terrible...hope RD goes out...NOW, and with his head held high...already most of the cricket world is looking at these same records and asking " what the hell", so not much time left....not to salvage career, thats over...but JUST to save respect[/quote'] He is in a tough spot, no doubt. I dont know what to say. He is one of the best Test batsman India has produced, and if he retires after Nagpur, so be it. He does not need to "save" respect. He will always have a lot of respect from the fans and players, coz he has contributed single handedly to win and more importantly save many tests for India. I have a feeling, he'll get to play against Eng. But its ok if he wants to retire before that.

[Shehezaada]

Sampath, I don't care what you whisper in the ear of the selectors. Dravid is a legend and will bow out on his own terms, not because of some crap you pulled from stats guru and presented to your friend. Dravid has a big knock coming right around the corner. Your plan will go to pieces.

[cricketman]

Badri will open.

[fineleg]

Badri will open.

GG may still play.

[flamy]

Badri will open.

thats kinda tough on him.

[fineleg]

thats kinda tough on him.

does MSD hate Badri enough to make him open? :sherlock:

[Guest HariSampath]

Sampath' date=' I don't care what you whisper in the ear of the selectors. Dravid is a legend and will bow out on his own terms, not because of some crap you pulled from stats guru and presented to your friend. Dravid has a big knock coming right around the corner. Your plan will go to pieces.[/quote'] One earns the right to go out on own terms...Dravid no longer has that luxury, he had it maybe 2-3 series back when he could have made that decision, but not now. Incidentally, what I am quoting is "not crap from cricinfo", its called FACT. Naturally, you would not like it, because you are living in the past and reluctant to face reality. It is like me saying " I dont care whatever crap you show me from cricinfo on Dravid's career record, but I think he is not a cricketer at all"....thats not a valid argument. What Dravid has achieved in his career is tremendous, undeniably so, he is one of the greatest batters India has produced and has won or saved many a game for India. And the proof is his record. Same way, past 2 years, he has been the most comprehensive failure in Indian cricket, averaging 20 in 15 test inngs, 27 in last 25 tests, 1 Fifty per series for last 6 test series, and just one match impacting innings in 19 tests. This is also a fact , the proof is in the record, and no one can argue with that. You know...like many others on this forum, you probably think I hate Dravid so much and am carrying on a personal vendetta against him. Its so far from the truth. I like Dravid far more than many Indian cricketers, both as a person and as a test player. I have probably seen his 65 ball 90 in an ODI in England last year many more times than hardcore Dravid fans. I had even written an article about that innings somewhere else, saying I hadn't seen even Viv Richards play an inngs like that , even once in his career. You see, its not about the player or any such thing. Just like when a close loved one is in critical care on life support, and if he or she has very remote chance of survival, and even that survival means living in indignity, paralysed, as a vegetable, braindead or something, very close ones would say " just remove the life support and let him go, he wouldnt want to live like that, nor do we want to see him like that"...but if there are superficial friends or misguided relatives, they may say..." oh no, let him be like this forever, we can keep seeing him, technically alive "...or " let him live for 1 more year, I need his signature on a document or he owes me money". It is just that I feel if Dravid continues, fails and is unceremoniously dropped, he will look back on his last 2 years and think " damn, I must have taken a decision mid 2008 and exited gracefully, if I had taken that decision, I might even have got a couple of 100s playing free"...irrespective of fan's respect and support, HE will feel bad he had dragged on too long.It is THIS Dravid I am addressing my points to.

[Rajan]

Hari, at some point of time, Mark Taylor, Allan Border, Steve Waugh, Azhar had gone through such phases and they had come back to form very well and justified their place in the team.If u had been observing the dismissals of Rahul Dravid, u may have noted that he has been getting out quite a few times while fishing outside the off stumps to wide deliveries.that is not the way he plays when he is in form.he has also been dismissed while playing on a few times.again that happens when he is not timing his shots well. so, in my opinion, it is a prolonged stretch of poor form rather than a 'loss of all his skills" or "slowing down reflexes" .he is getting plenty of starts. just that the big innings elude him. he wl be back to form soon.he still has 3 years of cricket in him. indian team needs him more than he needs the team.u would realise if the so called replacements for fab4 fail miserably on the international arena. even a very experienced Yuvi was found wanting.all Dravid needs is support and understanding of the team management and he deserves it.