Pakistani Connection

[Lurker]

Take, for example, the post I quoted two posts ago. The idea of consciously driving Pakistan's economy into the ground sounds relatively tame in comparison to other things I've seen, but it isn't. What that post is really wishing is for tens of thousands of ordinary, poor human beings to be put through torturous hardship and starvation because they would no longer be able to feed their family or themselves.

If it comes to that so be it. It is not exactly that Indians are going into Pakistan and killing your citizens, why should we bother if 1000s of Pakistanis die when the same gesture is not reciprocated. If you have indeed read most of the posts here you would be a see a startling difference this time - the moderate and liberal Indians are furious and they want, nay demand, action. So dont be too disappointed if Pakistan doesnt find too many friends in India today. And trust me when I say this - Pakistan can not exist if relationship with India go down the toilet. xxx

[Lurker]

Whatever happens, there are no winners when you have scum like these terrorists who have nothing to lose and aim to destabilize countries/regions through religious hatred.

I hate to say this but the only winning team after this would be India. Sample this: a) Indian Armed Forces,including cops, gets their weapon system upgraded. No more .22 one shot guns in use anymore. b) More emphasis on Special Operation task forces designed specifically to meet such situations. c) Mumbai Underworld gets scrwed royally. Trust me on this. One thing cops dont like, even corrupt cops, is to see a fallen policeman. Top cops being cut down would mean the rest of the encounter specialists will go after the Mumbai underworld. Give this 6 months and tell me if I wasnt right on the money. d) Increased interaction with FBI, Mossad, Scotland Yard that will only improve our Intelligence which is cr@p e) Increases spending by Indian Security will make Pakistan do the same...except they are already bankrupt. f) Working with FBI/Mossad means India will conclusively prove Pakistan's hand. Not something Pakistan can wiggle out of. All of this however depends on political will. That will be the clincher.

[Predator_05]

This article might answer MANY OF THE QUESTIONS people may have regarding these terrorists' training, military expertise and how they may have acquired it. It's from 2001 (pre 9/11), when the link between the paki army and the mercenary terrorists in Kashmir wasn't anywhere near as ambiguous as it is now. The source is Time magazine, and the author is a paki;

INSIDE JIHAD Since Kashmir erupted in 1989, India has pointed a blunt and unwavering finger at Pakistan, accusing its neighbor of fomenting the entire problem. It's a large and cynical exaggeration: anti-Indian sentiment runs high within Kashmir, and in the first half of the 1990s, Kashmiris themselves provided the steam in the anti-Indian militant movement. They were disorganized and willing to murder, but passionate and anxious to plead their nationalist cause with the outside world. Today, however, India's charge rings a lot truer. Despite a decade of denials—Islamabad insists it provides only moral and political support, not training or tangible aid—Pakistan is fueling militant activity in Kashmir. Of the five main militant groups operating in Kashmir, four are based in Pakistan, where open recruiting and fundraising are commonplace. Training of militants is also done on Pakistani soil. The Pakistani military is deeply involved, especially in the smuggling of anti-Indian militants across the Line of Control. Militant groups have roots all over Pakistan, from their well-equipped training centres in Muzaffarabad—the capital of Pakistan's slice of Kashmir—and the country's North-West Frontier province to the nice, middle-class houses in Lahore and Islamabad. Those houses may look no different from their neighbors at first glance, but what about the strange antennas on the roofs, the international phone lines and the transient occupants with unkempt hair, camouflage jackets and hiking boots? And what of those unmarked four-wheel-drive vehicles pulling up at dawn with clockwork precision? Here is an inside look at how Pakistan runs its covert war in Kashmir: Recruiting and Training There are thousands of young, motivated Pakistani men anxious to join the militancy in Kashmir, which they consider a holy war. They come from all walks of life: not merely from the religious schools known as madrassahs, or the far-flung, poverty-mired towns and villages, but also from Pakistan's educated and Westernized middle and upper classes. In the jihad they find brotherhood, a sense of mission and purpose. And for these highly religious volunteers, many of whom are still in their teens, there is nothing more sacred in life than achieving the status of a martyr. These are the grunts in the war. The leaders are Pakistani veterans of the Afghan war. The largest training camp in Pakistan is run by Lashkar-i-Taiba, a wing of an Afghan mujahedin group known as Markaz Al Dawa Wal Irshad. It is set on a vast mountain clearing overlooking Muzaffarabad. (Training grounds for the other three militant groups are located in the North-West Frontier province.) Armed men guard the facility round-the-clock. There are only two structures, one an armory, the other a kitchen. Trainees live and sleep in the open, whether in the sweltering summer or the depth of winter. The field is dotted with installations used to teach the fervent young—some no older than 14—how to cross a river, climb a mountain or ambush a military convoy. The day of a trainee begins at four in the morning. After offering prayers, the militants go for exercises. A breakfast of tea and bread is at eight, followed by a full day of rigorous drills, which are interrupted only for prayers and a simple lunch, usually rice and lentils. Coursework covers how to use sidearms, sniper rifles, grenades, rocket launchers and wireless radio sets, as well as the art of constructing bombs. The teachers are Lashkar veterans of action in Kashmir and Afghanistan. Sports, music and television are forbidden. Trainees are only allowed to read pre-screened newspaper articles. Training is divided into two stages. The first three-week session gives religious education and basic knowledge of how to handle firearms. Once a volunteer has passed that course, which costs the organization about $330 per trainee, he is sent to a designated city or town, often near his birthplace, to work at the group's offices and become more involved with the organization. When a volunteer proves himself capable, motivated and loyal, he is enrolled in a special three-month commando boot camp, which costs the group $1,700 per student. (The money is raised from overseas groups and the Pakistani public, often via open demonstrations in Pakistani cities of militants working out, scaling walls and showing other martial tricks. Generous donors are invited to visit the not-so-secret camps to see how their money is spent.) Phase two is designed to push each volunteer to his physical limit and cull the weak from the strong. In the final weeks, recruits use live ammunition, construct actual explosives and perfect ambush techniques. The final exam lasts three days. A group of trainees, sometimes as large as 100 individuals, hikes and climbs through high-altitude, wooded terrain for three days without food or sleep. They are not allowed to slow their pace except for a few naps. At the end the hungry and thirsty survivors are given a goat, a knife and a matchbox. That's their reward, and they have to cook and eat it in warlike conditions. Going In Only the fittest from each graduating group are given a chance at martyrdom across the border in Kashmir. The local commander makes his choice, and the fortunate few are dispatched to safe houses along the Line of Control known as "launching pads." (Parents' permission is technically required for anyone who opts for jihad. Many boys get it easily, but some who don't, fully submerged in the dream of martyrdom, pressure their parents into complying.) At the launching pad, while waiting for their marching orders, the boys write wills and what might be their last words to their families. At this point, the Pakistani army plays a crucial role helping to arrange the infiltration of the militants across the Line of Control. Militants officially deny Pakistani army involvement, but those who fought in Kashmir tell Time that the wait at the launching pad is dictated by their leaders, who are in touch with the army. "Until an unmarked vehicle turns up at your safe house," says a veteran of Al-Badr, the first Pakistan-based militant organization to get members across the line, "you don't know when your number will come." When it does, this is what happens: "The vehicle, covered from all sides, will pick up two, three or four militants according to the plan and dump them at one of the forward posts of the Pakistani army," the Al-Badr veteran says. "People in civvies give us arms, ammunition, food and money [indian currency]. We are asked to check our weapons. After a day or two they give us the signal to go ahead." None of the boys is allowed to carry his own arms to the Line of Control, although sometimes an individual can choose a favorite AK-47 and find it waiting for him at the army camp along the line. The next step is the most hazardous: from the Pakistani army post, the group embarks on a three-to-seven night journey into Indian-controlled Kashmir, traveling by night, hiding during the day. The group leader wears night-vision goggles. The rest follow blindly across the mountains. There are numerous obstacles: Indian mines, tracer flares, Indian border patrols anxious to shoot at them. "But whenever such a situation arises," says a Lashkar militant, "the Pakistani guns come to our rescue to provide cover." Militants making the return trip go through a reverse route, ending up at a Pakistani army base—sometimes with souvenirs. Abu Haibatullah, 32, was sent across the Line of Control in the mid '90s with a particular mission: to bring back an Indian soldier for interrogation. He managed to ambush and disarm a soldier, but when the Indian tried to snatch Haibatullah's gun, he killed him. He then decided to return home with the soldier's head. "Lots of people came to see the head," he recalls proudly. "Some were from the Pakistani army and they praised me for my gallantry." In the 1990s, the Pakistani militants hired local guides—ethnic Kashmiris—to help them get across the mountains and into India. "On a number of occasions," says Zakiur Rehman Lakhvi, 42, the supreme commander of the Lashkar-i-Taiba militants, "they took the money and tipped off the Indians. So we trained our own manpower." In other words, the Pakistani militants don't always trust the Kashmiris on whose behalf they are waging this war. The Pakistani militancy, which had its roots in the Afghan war, is now an institution unto itself.

[Fontaine]

I hate to say this but the only winning team after this would be India. Sample this: a) Indian Armed Forces,including cops, gets their weapon system upgraded. No more .22 one shot guns in use anymore. b) More emphasis on Special Operation task forces designed specifically to meet such situations. c) Mumbai Underworld gets scrwed royally. Trust me on this. One thing cops dont like, even corrupt cops, is to see a fallen policeman. Top cops being cut down would mean the rest of the encounter specialists will go after the Mumbai underworld. Give this 6 months and tell me if I wasnt right on the money. d) Increased interaction with FBI, Mossad, Scotland Yard that will only improve our Intelligence which is cr@p e) Increases spending by Indian Security will make Pakistan do the same...except they are already bankrupt. f) Working with FBI/Mossad means India will conclusively prove Pakistan's hand. Not something Pakistan can wiggle out of. All of this however depends on political will. That will be the clincher.

I hope so man, but right now my senses are numb thinking about the hundred and more innocents that were killed in cold blood. Especially those brave men and women who risked their lives from hotel staff, to fire response teams, commandos and police who didn't ask the people they were rescuing/protecting what religion, race or nationality are you. That's true humanity. Not like these terrorist cowards who were releasing hostages who were muslims and gunning down others in the name of fanaticism. All my senses are numb, my heart just goes out to all the victims of this senseless tragedy.

[Desi Cartman]

so they are alll foreigners .. Im relived .. Dekha desi desi hotay hai ..

[milkman]

I will be honest man. I think this stand off would be considered super dooper success by jihadi types. It will encourage more such attacks.

[milkman]

CNN-IBN *******s being so specific about everything!!!!!! madar chotes still have not learnt the lesson?

[THX_1138]

This basically sums it up for me. You want it to be Pakistan.

no... but if there is a pakistani connection, i dont want any hogwash investigation... i really would appreciate a detailed tabulation of all the evidence and thus prove beyond reasonable doubt that there is the involvement of a pakistan based terror outfit. and as for exploiting the shia-sunni divide; my intent is not to spread violence in a neighboring state, that would only come back to haunt us in the end, i want the neighbor to acknowledge that it has provided, unwittingly at times, a safe haven to agents of terror and it is time for these agents to be flushed out.

[THX_1138]

I make one post and three people put words in my mouth. Fine' date=' I'll back off for a few days and let things simmer down.[/quote'] there is considerable anger broiling here... this city is home to a vast number of people here and one can only talk reason with a calm mind. you needn't back off or anything, just be more generous with ignoring some of the hate and anger being poured out. first there is venting, then there is healing.

[THX_1138]

This basically sums it up for me. You want it to be Pakistan.

furthermore, this diplomatic approach was immensely successful the last time around. it forced pakistan into acknowledging the presence of some of these terror outfits, labeled them illegal and began a pursuit of these outfits. as for the millions starving... well that is exaggeration on your part. last time around, the pakistani government agreed to the terms laid out on the table within a matter of days, less than two weeks actually. back then the government was led by a strong nationalist who was the mastermind behind a previous attempt at disrupting indian sovereignty... currently the government is democratically elected and thus more sensitive to the needs of the masses. if the same approach is adopted, a compromise might be arrived at within a week.

[THX_1138]

what happen to sattlite pictures?? cant we go back and zoom in those images from water.. and backtrack to where they came from??

ha ha... you think satellite imagery is available for every square inch of the country at all times? satellites have to be re-tasked to map terrain not on their previously programmed paths, and then there is of course the think about satellites passing over a region during a limited number of hours a day. most low earth orbit spy satellites have an orbit of a few hours and thus can cover a particular region for only a few minutes.

[Rajiv]

Pakistani Punjabis, there u go..British Pakistanis

[THX_1138]

Pakistani Punjabis' date=' there u go..British Pakistanis[/quote'] source!?

[Rajiv]

HT news, some guy who had captured the picture of the terrorist said these guys were speaking punjabi - ( pak style ) and as they suspected them as British paks - didnt u see during afghan war, young kids being given "shabashi by salwar-kameez" clad women outside their little british houses and the feeling that the brain washed mother is sacrifcing the son ------------- P.S - what are the chances we will see some blast in pakistan to show they are victims of terrorism as well

[milkman]

Rajeev smoking gun on Girlie boy thread. Pakistan is screwed! Can Pak wriggle out of this?

[punjabi_khota]

source!?

http://epaper.timesofindia.com/Default/Client.asp?Daily=MMIR&login=default&Enter=true&Skin=MM&GZ=T&AW=1227934234937

[veer]

another question is if they care so much about muslims being ill treated .. then why dont they go to SOMALIA, SUDAN where muslims kill muslims for fun..

[SachDan]

Intelligence Bureau: Terrorists were given full support by ISI

[Fontaine]

Screw this. Pakistan clearly cannot control the radical elements amongst its population let alone the Mujahideen along it's NW borders. This isn't just about the events in the last few days, Pakistan clearly isn't a stable country with these radical Islamics ****s gaining so much control. How soon is it that these *******s get even more brazen and gain a bigger foothold in Pak? As long as the Americans are screwing things up in that area there's going to be more and more anti west sentiment and India will their first target. Screw Pakistan if it can't control it's frew thousand radicals. Call in repeated air strikes and bomb the radical parts of that country back to hell.

[Sachinism]

We are not involved, says Pak