What Pakistan Won't Do, the World Should - Washington Post

[Fontaine]

I've said the same thing before as well. India need to convince the international community that Pakistan has to have more responsiblity in dealing with the mess it created the way the US is forcing Pak to use it's own army for counter terrorism measures. However, when it comes to situations like this all the major governments of the world/UN think along these lines: 1. How much money is it going to cost us? 2. And what's in it for me (is it going to get me re-elected)? And looking at the financial recession the world is in at the moment, neither question falls in India's favour. Those are the same questions being asked by Indian politicians no doubt with the upcoming elections and even though India should continue to pursue diplomatic actions against Pak like asking for the known criminals and terrorists given safe haven in Pak, but ultimately it's going to come down to India to do something about this situation. No one is going to hold our hand and help us through this. It's at times like these that you need intelligent, dynamic and resourceful leaders who are willing to carry out the tough actions leading towards short/long term success but most of these fools are only thinking about the elections coming up soon.

[Willow_on_fire]

Good article...:two_thumbs_up:

[Desi Cartman]

well Ms Rice hasnt said much yet .. she is not even saying that Pak should hand over terrorists to India ... I dont think US would want to have another war (or war like ) situation involving pak .. plus the bloody recession. BTW this is what Sonia G said today in J&K

URI (Jammu & Kashmir): Congress president Sonia Gandhi warned on Wednesday that India would give a "fitting reply" to terrorism. ( Watch ) "We will never surrender to terrorism. We will give a fitting reply to terrorism," Gandhi told an election rally here close to the Pakistani border. Gandhi, who is also chairperson of United Progressive Alliance, said the country's desire to have friendly relations with Pakistan should not be seen as a "weakness". "Nobody should consider our friendship with Pakistan as our weakness," she said, speaking in Hindi. :omg: She added that some forces were trying to "frighten India with terrorism". Gandhi's comments came shortly after Pakistan rejected Indian requests to hand over 20 terrorists and criminals to New Delhi. The Indian request followed the Mumbai terror attacks that left 183 people dead.

[Guest dada_rocks]

shakal bhi hindu jaisi hai

Zaid Hamid: Zara gaur farmaiyega nazanne is shakal pe ye aapko american lagta hai kahin se.. saaf Hinduaana shakala hai iski. Actually mera intelligence report kahta hai aap to jaante hi hai amerizca mein zeena kitana aam hai, in jannab ka abbu ak baar india trip pe the apni family ke sath wahan inki begam ka dil ak hindu pe aa gaya aur us aafir se inka janm hua hai.. sliye ye hinduon ki sifarish kar rahe hain aakhirkaar kahte hain na blood is thicker than water..

[Guest dada_rocks]

well Ms Rice hasnt said much yet .. she is not even saying that Pak should hand over terrorists to India ... I dont think US would want to have another war (or war like ) situation involving pak .. plus the bloody recession. BTW this is what Sonia G said today in J&K

Sonia Gandi speaking in hindi means only humour..

[Lurker]

For people like Robert Kagan the world started in 2008, or atleast thats what his writing shows up. Yes I am all for "controlling" parts of Pakistan which has essentially become a stateless state. Yes I am all for taking out militants camp that are churning out jihadis. Yes I am all for making the world a safer place and taking out militants who have made the world a living hell. And yes in the same vein I am going to request Mr Kagan to start reading up on the region and ask himself Why Pakistan came to be in this position in the first place? Why does CIA still claim Afganistan jihad as its finest hour when essentially Afganistan jihad effed up Afganistan, Pakistan now Bangladesh and increasingly India. If Pakistan "denies" every single attack in the face of evidence where did it learn that? Didnt CIA arm Mujahideens to the teeth and kept "denying" when Russian would charge them? One of the first books that I ever read was by Ken Follett(Lie with the Lions) where the author almost worshipped the jihadis of Panchsheer(5 lions) valley. Every child of 80s would remember watching one of Rocky movies where Stallone helped the Mujahideens take on Russians. And now when the wheel comes full circle it becomes preaching time, eh?? The first step towards curbing the Islamic militancy starts with United States. They should acknowledge their mistake and not celebrate them. xxx

[Fontaine]

For people like Robert Kagan the world started in 2008, or atleast thats what his writing shows up. Yes I am all for "controlling" parts of Pakistan which has essentially become a stateless state. Yes I am all for taking out militants camp that are churning out jihadis. Yes I am all for making the world a safer place and taking out militants who have made the world a living hell. And yes in the same vein I am going to request Mr Kagan to start reading up on the region and ask himself Why Pakistan came to be in this position in the first place? Why does CIA still claim Afganistan jihad as its finest hour when essentially Afganistan jihad effed up Afganistan, Pakistan now Bangladesh and increasingly India. If Pakistan "denies" every single attack in the face of evidence where did it learn that? Didnt CIA arm Mujahideens to the teeth and kept "denying" when Russian would charge them? One of the first books that I ever read was by Ken Follett(Lie with the Lions) where the author almost worshipped the jihadis of Panchsheer(5 lions) valley. Every child of 80s would remember watching one of Rocky movies where Stallone helped the Mujahideens take on Russians. And now when the wheel comes full circle it becomes preaching time, eh?? The first step towards curbing the Islamic militancy starts with United States. They should acknowledge their mistake and not celebrate them. xxx

I understand the point you are making but ultimately, I believe fare greater responsibility lies with the groups that carry out these attacks. Yes the US armed them, trained them and supported them against the Russian invasion but Afghanistan had a golden opportunity to move on once the Russians withdrew and start building up their nation. Instead they squandered this opportunity by fighting amongst themselves for more than a decade with war lords taking turns beating the crap out of each other and innocents. In the process their radicalism nearly destroyed the entire country and the again chose to ally themselves with Osama. World policy will always be in favour of dominant countries. It's not fair or right, but neither is the heavy handed response from these terrorists. I just don't think they will change the nature of their fight even if the US etc changes it's policies.

[Lurker]

I understand the point you are making but ultimately, I believe fare greater responsibility lies with the groups that carry out these attacks. Yes the US armed them, trained them and supported them against the Russian invasion but Afghanistan had a golden opportunity to move on once the Russians withdrew and start building up their nation. Instead they squandered this opportunity by fighting amongst themselves for more than a decade with war lords taking turns beating the crap out of each other and innocents.

In Afganistan USA did not only provide weapon support, it turned a blind eye towards the growth of Radical Islam. In many case it actually spurred it. Case in point General Zia's sharia adventures in Pakistan. Even though Zia was a Dictator who overthrew an elected leader, curtailed Democratic freedom, and advocated strong Islamic policies USA was more than happy to let him be. It was during General Zia's time when Khalistan blew up in India, everytime Indian Govt would corner Zia he would go scott free with a - Where's the proof? The CIA damn well knew where the proof was. CIA helped build Pakistan Army and ISI, the latter learned the trick of bleeding a giant by 1000 small cuts in Russia and is now using against India. India has been shouting hoarse since mid to late 80s, it took a 911 for USA to stand up and take notice. So long as the Yemeni jihadis were battling Russian in Afganistan all was good, the moment they turned their gun towards USA they became terrorists. Even today CIA considers Afgan war as its finest hour. Americans love Ronald Reagan for implementing the "jihad" with minimal damager. Small time Congressmen Charlie Wilson is nation hero. All this when the (mis) adventure has cost the area(and the world) dearly. xxx

[beetle]

And don't forget the light blue shirt - only Indians wear light blue' date=' yeh HINDUSTAN ki daishakgardon ki nishani hai. Kameena saala is obviously a RAW agent, a SIKH named Raman Krishnan.[/quote'] :hysterical::hysterical:

[Guest dada_rocks]

What's the point of pontificating on what happend in past.. let us worry about present

[Lurker]

What's the point of pontificating on what happend in past.. let us worry about present

Because clearly this menance can not be tackled by any one country. USA has tried and seen the result. No matter how hard it tries, USA can not go solo. They have even involved NATO and that hasnt worked. In the best case scenarion NATO/US will keep things under control and when they leave the situation will flare up again. Probably the most important step that needs to be taken right now is to stop arms landing into the arms of these terrorists. Where do they get these arms from? There are only a handful of countries that produce AK series. China and Russia need to come on board. But they wont if USA keeps up its duplicity. What needs to be mentioned very clearly is that terrorism is wrong, period and even when US supported it, that was wrong too. xxx

[Guest dada_rocks]

Because clearly this menance can not be tackled by any one country. USA has tried and seen the result. No matter how hard it tries, USA can not go solo. They have even involved NATO and that hasnt worked. In the best case scenarion NATO/US will keep things under control and when they leave the situation will flare up again. Probably the most important step that needs to be taken right now is to stop arms landing into the arms of these terrorists. Where do they get these arms from? There are only a handful of countries that produce AK series. China and Russia need to come on board. But they wont if USA keeps up its duplicity. What needs to be mentioned very clearly is that terrorism is wrong, period and even when US supported it, that was wrong too. xxx

Yes I have no problme with how many countried have to be involved henceforth.. I also believe the terro factory which is the official pakistani texbooks had to be also questioned.. I am not talking about medersah here the mains stream pakistani textbooks do the dirty psyop work for preparing kids for these martyrdom.. Everythign is fine as long as we are talking about future.. There is no point in insisiting USa publicly proclaim themy have been wrong in past because they wud never do that. I am happy as long as they see the light in matters of moving forward disconnet with their behavious in past notwithstanding

[Lurker]

Yes I have no problme with how many countried have to be involved henceforth.. I also believe the terro factory which is the official pakistani texbooks had to be also questioned.. I am not talking about medersah here the mains stream pakistani textbooks do the dirty psyop work for preparing kids for these martyrdom.. Everythign is fine as long as we are talking about future.. There is no point in insisiting USa publicly proclaim themy have been wrong in past because they wud never do that. I am happy as long as they see the light in matters of moving forward disconnet with their behavious in past notwithstanding

There are both internal and external factors at play here. Internal issues are what you have raised - orthodox textbooks, religious fundamentalism and so on. That has to be tackled as also issues like unemployment etc etc. At the same time what needs to be tackled are external factors as well. Whether you like it not, USA has had a fundamental role to play in the disintegration of the region. Almost all the dirty work that ISI/Pakistan Army does can be traced to CIA one way or the other. So no you can not move forward unless you understand that, establish it and then proceed to avoid raking chest thumping that has done nothing but screwed up an entire region. Yes I would like to see USA concede it as a mistake and lesson learnt. Unfortunately it continues to be arrogant and keeps supporting the same old dictators and orthodox so long as they are not against its interest...short term. xxx

[Guest dada_rocks]

While the intercepts of September speak well of the interception capability of the R&AW, it does not necessarily speak well of its capability for analysis, assessment and follow-up action. Many questions are relevant in this regard: In what form did it report the intelligence? Did it tone it down while reporting the intercepts in a paraphrased form? Did it tell the persons to whom it sent the two reports of September that the intelligence was based on intercepts of telephone conversations of an LET operative based in Pakistan? If it did not do so on grounds of operational security, how come it is now sharing them with journalists? This only strengthens the suspicion that the IB and the R&AW show a greater readiness to share sensitive intelligence with journalists to protect themselves than with each other to protect the nation and its people. To which Ministries and departments were the reports sent and at what level?http://outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20081203&fname=raman&sid=1 Sometime back an intelligence officer said the level of cooperation is so poor amongst intelligencebureay and RAw that they usually call Praveen Swami of hindu for latest information and more often than not he provided more recent updates than they themselves have.

[Dhondy]

Zardari categorically stated today that he doesn't believe that the captured terrorist is a Pakistani. He disclaims all responsibility. If you are following the Pakistani response in this on the media, on various forums and on an individual level, you'll see how entrenched their position is. That's not going to change. There will therefore be no action from Pakistan. This will go on, and India will die a thousand deaths. Unthinkable though it is, the only way India can put an end to this is through direct military action. Diplomacy? Been there and done that. International pressure? Doesn't work. USA need Pakistan as their ally, and can only compress their cojones so much. War carries ruinous resonances. The economy will suffer, foreign investment will dry up, people will die, IPL will end...oops, that may not be such a bad thing, actually. But not to strike at those terrorist strongholds deep inside Pakistan carries an even greater danger. No metro will be safe. It'll only be a matter of time before the next batch of innocents die, the next airport or railway station is attacked, the next hotel is reduced to rubble. This is a time for deep introspection for us as a nation. If we believe in our nationhood, we may have to stake all. Or we may choose to carry on in our current avatar, a land held together loosely by mainly apathetic and self serving individuals such as I (and the rest of us?), who value life, limb, family and hearth above nation. If we choose the latter, if we decide on safety first, it renders all the verbiage in this forum and the millions of columns of newsprint, the posturing, the righteous indignation, and even the right to grieve over those who died for us redundant- a complete and meaningless sham. It's a momentous decision. And it has to be made.

[The Outsider]

^ If those are the only options we well and truly have I would rather take my chances and go through a bomb blast or few every couple of months rather than risk entire cities being wiped out by nuclear weapons from which we may never be able to recover. Better a thousand dead every year than millions and their future generations wiped out in one go.

[The Outsider]

This was exactly the thought process of the many Rajput and other small kingdoms that opted to convert and stay alive rather than joining hands and finding ways to tackle the menace. All it takes for Evil to prosper is a few good men doing nothing.

Didn't know nuclear bombs existed during the time of Rajputs. But then what do I know.

[Guest dada_rocks]

This was exactly the thought process of the many Rajput and other small kingdoms that opted to convert and stay alive rather than joining hands and finding ways to tackle the menace. All it takes for Evil to prosper is a few good men doing nothing.

I kind of agree with Shwetabh with only difference that i do not want to resort to twiddling thumbs doing nothing and waiting for another blast... I want Indian machinery to put in place similar philopshy of thousand cuts which pakistan has viz a viz India.. I say open hostitlity might lead to nuclear war but then blowing people up inside pakistan certainlyiwon't do.. let us reopen RAW wings that concentarted on this and other sepratist activitis in pakistan....... .Hate Vajpayee and Moraraji Desain for folding that operation in 70's.......That should have gone on

[Guest dada_rocks]

The armies of the jihadis killed more than Hiroshimi-Nagasaki. Thats how brutal they were.

Counting ka problem hai shwetabh mian ko:winky:.. by rough estimate 80 million is thte total scoreline in islamist attack.. Hiroshima pales in comparison

[Dhondy]

As I said- fear- always the key emotion in the psyche of every Indian. It dominates what we do, in every facet of our life. It's a very important emotion, because it ensures our survival. But it also degrades us a nation, to the point that such incidents launch a cacophony of voices of a people demanding the restoration of their self respect, or cause us to look enviously at others that may have been less circumspect.