THX_1138 Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 I am going to part with my unwritten code of never posting previously published material to bring your attention to this Op-Ed column in the New York Times that i was particularly interested in: December 3, 2008 Op-Ed Columnist Calling All Pakistanis By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN On Feb. 6, 2006, three Pakistanis died in Peshawar and Lahore during violent street protests against Danish cartoons that had satirized the Prophet Muhammad. More such mass protests followed weeks later. When Pakistanis and other Muslims are willing to take to the streets, even suffer death, to protest an insulting cartoon published in Denmark, is it fair to ask: Who in the Muslim world, who in Pakistan, is ready to take to the streets to protest the mass murders of real people, not cartoon characters, right next door in Mumbai? After all, if 10 young Indians from a splinter wing of the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party traveled by boat to Pakistan, shot up two hotels in Karachi and the central train station, killed at least 173 people, and then, for good measure, murdered the imam and his wife at a Saudi-financed mosque while they were cradling their 2-year-old son — purely because they were Sunni Muslims — where would we be today? The entire Muslim world would be aflame and in the streets. So what can we expect from Pakistan and the wider Muslim world after Mumbai? India says its interrogation of the surviving terrorist indicates that all 10 men come from the Pakistani port of Karachi, and at least one, if not all 10, were Pakistani nationals. First of all, it seems to me that the Pakistani government, which is extremely weak to begin with, has been taking this mass murder very seriously, and, for now, no official connection between the terrorists and elements of the Pakistani security services has been uncovered. At the same time, any reading of the Pakistani English-language press reveals Pakistani voices expressing real anguish and horror over this incident. Take for instance the Inter Press Service news agency article of Nov. 29 from Karachi: “ ‘I feel a great fear that [the Mumbai violence] will adversely affect Pakistan and India relations,’ the prominent Karachi-based feminist poet and writer Attiya Dawood told I.P.S. ‘I can’t say whether Pakistan is involved or not, but whoever is involved, it is not the ordinary people of Pakistan, like myself, or my daughters. We are with our Indian brothers and sisters in their pain and sorrow.’ †But while the Pakistani government’s sober response is important, and the sincere expressions of outrage by individual Pakistanis are critical, I am still hoping for more. I am still hoping — just once — for that mass demonstration of “ordinary people†against the Mumbai bombers, not for my sake, not for India’s sake, but for Pakistan’s sake. Why? Because it takes a village. The best defense against this kind of murderous violence is to limit the pool of recruits, and the only way to do that is for the home society to isolate, condemn and denounce publicly and repeatedly the murderers — and not amplify, ignore, glorify, justify or “explain†their activities. Sure, better intelligence is important. And, yes, better SWAT teams are critical to defeating the perpetrators quickly before they can do much damage. But at the end of the day, terrorists often are just acting on what they sense the majority really wants but doesn’t dare do or say. That is why the most powerful deterrent to their behavior is when the community as a whole says: “No more. What you have done in murdering defenseless men, women and children has brought shame on us and on you.†Why should Pakistanis do that? Because you can’t have a healthy society that tolerates in any way its own sons going into a modern city, anywhere, and just murdering everyone in sight — including some 40 other Muslims — in a suicide-murder operation, without even bothering to leave a note. Because the act was their note, and destroying just to destroy was their goal. If you do that with enemies abroad, you will do that with enemies at home and destroy your own society in the process. “I often make the comparison to Catholics during the pedophile priest scandal,†a Muslim woman friend wrote me. “Those Catholics that left the church or spoke out against the church were not trying to prove to anyone that they are anti-pedophile. Nor were they apologizing for Catholics, or trying to make the point that this is not Catholicism to the non-Catholic world. They spoke out because they wanted to influence the church. They wanted to fix a terrible problem†in their own religious community. We know from the Danish cartoons affair that Pakistanis and other Muslims know how to mobilize quickly to express their heartfelt feelings, not just as individuals, but as a powerful collective. That is what is needed here. Because, I repeat, this kind of murderous violence only stops when the village — all the good people in Pakistan, including the community elders and spiritual leaders who want a decent future for their country — declares, as a collective, that those who carry out such murders are shameful unbelievers who will not dance with virgins in heaven but burn in hell. And they do it with the same vehemence with which they denounce Danish cartoons. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/03/opinion/03friedman.html?_r=1&em i have highlighted two poignant paragraphs. the link:
graphic23 Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 The first highlight is brilliant. Tom Friedman is pretty cool. Isn't he the guy who wrote "The World is Flat" ?
Desi Cartman Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 Ex-U.S. Official Cites Pakistani Training for India Attackers Another one
MundaPakistani Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 Is BJP banned in India? ...and is the Indian army bombing the heck out of the BJP? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- thats only if the men were indeed Pakistanis
fineleg Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 faisal, ur equating BJP to these folks who support terrorists?
MundaPakistani Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 faisal, ur equating BJP to these folks who support terrorists? no, i am pointing out the flaw in the analogy.
MundaPakistani Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 BJP is a political party in India and participates in her democratic processes. Indian Army is there to serve and protect these democratic entities. Not bomb them. I understand you are a paki and have little understanding of how democracy works; but living outside of pak must have helped? err...you proved my point thanks.
MundaPakistani Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 BJP needs to be banned why in your opinion ? hey BB, Welcome back Where did i say BJP should be banned?
Ram Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 This is important, Friedman is a VERY influential foreign policy figure and his works are read by mainstream Americans. This will benefit us a lot.
Bumper Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 no' date=' i am pointing out the flaw in the analogy.[/quote'] There is a HUGE hole in your example. Is BJP anti-Islam ? May be. But so are Democrats and Republicans in America. Is BJP promoting hindu extremists who are commiting terrorism in Pakistan on a monthly basis ? Absolutely not! That should answer your qn. If not let me know.
punjabi_khota Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 There is a HUGE hole in your example. Is BJP anti-Islam ? May be. But so are Democrats and Republicans in America. Is BJP promoting hindu extremists who are commiting terrorism in Pakistan on a monthly basis ? Absolutely not! That should answer your qn. If not let me know. BJP as a whole is not anti-Islam.
MundaPakistani Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 thanks I intend to vanish soon .. again :--D chaloo best of luck with your "offline" life Thats what is implied by your cryptic first post in this thread. Could u explain what you meant in detail Iam confused Point was the LeT is a banned organization in Pakistan and is not connected to the civilian government while BJP IS the government. So it doesn't make sense to compare the 2.
punjabi_khota Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 chaloo best of luck with your "offline" life Point was the LeT is a banned organization in Pakistan and is not connected to the civilian government while BJP IS the government. So it doesn't make sense to compare the 2. There is another point that the scenario the author mentioned has not happened.
yoda Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 MP who is bombing the heck out of these guys in India if they are from Pakistan? And which group do you claim these guys who boarded on a boat from Karachi belong to and which India has banned?
Chandan Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 Is BJP banned in India? ...and is the Indian army bombing the heck out of the BJP? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- thats only if the men were indeed Pakistanis And your point is?
Bumper Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 Point was the LeT is a banned organization in Pakistan and is not connected to the civilian government while BJP IS the government. So it doesn't make sense to compare the 2. Banned organization ? Is that why your govt is asking for proof to arrest its leader ? :hysterical: If these goons are deemed dangerous what are you guys waiting for ? And as I said before, BJP does NOT conduct terrorist activities in Pakistan on a monthly basis. And its not a free ride for them, they have to be voted to power by a democratic process. Add to that the fact that India was still a secular state when they ruled us for five years. Try getting LeT to rule Pak for a week:hysterical:
vroomfondel Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 the analogy is flawed MP, you're right. Please replace with hypothetical hindu terrorist organization. does not change Freidman's point.
yoda Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 MP, replace BJP with VHP or Shiv-Sena, which is probably what the author wanted to convey. A Hindu group travelling all the way from India to Pakistan and Bombing innocent Muslims in Pakistan. Yes they are not banned in India, that doesn't mean they can't be compared. Anyways, I hope you are not sympathetic towards these guys at all. They have their own Kashmir, part of a country whose Islamic values they cherish. If they can't be happy there, they will never be happy anywhere. The only Islamic movement I have any sympathy towards are the Palestinians, who have no land to live in. All others can go piss on themselves.
Ram Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 Is BJP banned in India? ...and is the Indian army bombing the heck out of the BJP? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- thats only if the men were indeed Pakistanis Banned? All these symbolic bans dont even last the days they were enforced. If the Pak govt. bans 'LeT', the next, they're up and running with a new name, new front, new logo, new brand.. Only, their people are the same and their intent is the same; to spread Islamic terrorism in India. And where is Pakistani govt. bombing the LeT anyway? I dont recollect the LeT having significant operation in NWFP, FATA areas, which is where most of the Pakistani bombing happens. And its no secret the LeT operates mostly out of PoK and Punjab. Yes, Friedman's analogy of comparing the LeT and BJP is wrong, but so is your justification for not comparing the two. Besides, the whole article's point isnt about the analogy anyway.
punjabi_khota Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 Banned? All these symbolic bans dont even last the days they were enforced. If the Pak govt. bans 'LeT', the next, they're up and running with a new name, new front, new logo, new brand.. Only, their people are the same and their intent is the same; to spread Islamic terrorism in India. And where is Pakistani govt. bombing the LeT anyway? I dont recollect the LeT having significant operation in NWFP, FATA areas, which is where most of the Pakistani bombing happens. And its no secret the LeT operates mostly out of PoK and Punjab. Yes, Friedman's analogy of comparing the LeT and BJP is wrong, but so is your justification for not comparing the two. Besides, the whole article's point isnt about the analogy anyway. Yeah, the ban is big sham.
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