Calling All Pakistanis by NYT bestseller Thomas Friedman

[Guest dada_rocks]

Why have pak not arrested LET leaders?

Forget arresting .. those guys I see daily being invited in talk shows there

[King Tendulkar]

Indeed they are A list speakers in pak fully accepted by pak govt and the people. Bizzare

[vroomfondel]

good article by frontline... http://www.flonnet.com/stories/20081219252501800.htm

Frontline Volume 25 - Issue 25 :: Dec. 06-19, 2008 INDIA'S NATIONAL MAGAZINE from the publishers of THE HINDU IN October, the Lashkar-e-Taiba’s supreme religious and political head, Hafiz Mohammad Saeed, in a signal speech to top functionaries of the organisation, said: “The only language India understands is that of force, and that is the language it must be talked to in.†If India’s strategic establishment had been listening, all those people who made the mistake of being in the wrong places in Mumbai on November 26 would still be alive. If more carnage is to be prevented, it is imperative to correct the culture of strategic deafness that facilitated the murderous attacks. From the testimony of the arrested fidayeen, Ajmal Amin Kasab, Maharashtra Police investigators have garnered their first insights into the role of the Lahore- and Karachi-based Lashkar commanders in organising the attacks. Both the State Police and the Indian intelligence services appear to be confident that they will succeed in demonstrating that the trigger of the Mumbai terror squad’s guns were pulled by their commanders in Pakistan. . . Back in 2002, Indian intelligence informants first began reporting that Lashkar operatives were being trained in marine commando techniques along the Mangla dam, which straddles the border between Pakistan-occupied Kashmir (POK) and the province of Punjab. It soon became clear that the Lashkar, which found it increasingly difficult to penetrate India’s Line of Control defences, was hoping to open new routes across the Indian Ocean, routes that would give it easy access to key cities such as Mumbai. In 2006, Union Home Minister Shivraj Patil was disturbed when the covert services told him to make specific mention of the need to step up counter-terrorism defences. Among the intelligence that Patil based his speech on was the evolving story of Faisal Haroun, a top Lashkar operative who commanded the terror group’s India-focussed operations out of Bangladesh. In September 2006, Haroun was briefly held by the Bangladeshi authorities before being deported, quietly. But a West European covert service obtained transcripts of his questioning by Bangladesh’s Directorate-General of Field Intelligence, evidence that shook even the Home Minister. Haroun, it turned out, had been using a complex shipping network, with merchant ships and small fishing boats, to move explosives to Lashkar units operating in India. Among the end-users of these supplies was Ghulam Yazdani, a Hyderabad resident who commanded a series of attacks, including the assassination of the Godhra pogrom-complicit former Gujarat Home Minister, Haren Pandya, and the June 2005 bombing of the Delhi-Patna Shramjeevi Express. Investigators probing the Haroun story determined his network had helped land a massive consignment of explosives and assault rifles on the Maharashtra coast for an abortive 2006 Lashkar-led attempt to bomb Gujarat. INDIAN OCEAN BASE India’s intelligence services determined that Haroun had been attempting to set up an Indian Ocean base for the Lashkar. Along with a Male-based Maldives resident, Ali Assham, Haroun had studied the prospect of using a deserted Indian Ocean island to build a Lashkar storehouse from where weapons and explosives could be moved to Kerala and then on to the rest of India. In 2007, when evidence emerged of heightened Islamist activity in the Maldives, including the bombing of tourists in Male’s Sultan Park and the setting up of a Sharia-run mini-state on the Island of Himandhoo, the seriousness of the threat to India’s western seaboard became even more evident. Last year, the Lashkar’s maritime capabilities were underlined once again, when a group of eight fidayeen landed off Mumbai’s coast. On that occasion, a superbly crafted intelligence operation allowed the landing to be tracked by Coast Guard ships. The police in Maharashtra and Jammu and Kashmir, acting on information provided by the Intelligence Bureau (I.B.), were able to arrest the fidayeen. However, it was clear the networks Haroun was able to build were up and running. On the basis of these warnings, New Delhi moved to step up coastal counter-infiltration measures. In its Annual Report for 2007-08, the Home Ministry detailed the measures put in place for “strengthening coastal security arrangements, to check infiltrationâ€. In liaison with the nine coastal States and Union Territories, it said, funds had been earmarked to set up “73 coastal police stations which will be equipped with 204 boats, 153 jeeps and 312 motorcycles for mobility on coast and in close coastal waters. The coastal police stations will also have a marine police with personnel trained in maritime activitiesâ€. Precise figures are unavailable, but officials in three States told this correspondent that progress in realising the scheme had been painfully slow. Maharashtra and Gujarat both inaugurated over a dozen coastal police stations over the last year, but neither State set up a trained marine police. Fewer than a dozen new boats were made available to the two police forces; without sophisticated surveillance equipment fitted on board, their use for counter-infiltration work was at best rudimentary. And while the I.B. received sanction for hiring small numbers of personnel to man new coastal surveillance stations last year, it got neither boats nor observation equipment. Early this year, more intelligence became available that the Lashkar had Mumbai in its sights. Investigators probing a New Year’s Eve attack on a Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) camp in Rampur found that the Lashkar unit responsible for the attack also had plans to hit the Bombay Stock Exchange (BSE) , the Gateway of India and the Oberoi hotel. Uttar Pradesh resident Fahim Ahmed Ansari was arrested in February along with two specially trained Pakistani nationals, Imran Shehzad from Bhimber in POK and Mohammad Farooq Bhatti from Gujranwala in Punjab. Ansari’s interrogation records, which were accessed by Frontline, show he was recruited by the Lashkar when on a visit to Dubai in 2003. The owner of a small paper envelope manufacturing business and a one time activist of the Students Islamic Movement of India (SIMI), Ansair met top Lashkar commanders in Pakistan in 2007. He returned to India through Kathmandu late that year. Back in Mumbai, Ansari stayed at Sunlight Guest House from November 28 to December 10 before renting a room off Falkland Road. He then secured a driving licence under the alias Samir Sheikh and enrolled himself as a student at a computer institute near the BSE. All three BSE assault-team volunteers held Pakistani passports, which they presumably hoped would enable them to escape by catching flights through Nepal. Shehzad carried passport number EK5149331, issued on March 14, 2007, while Bhatti used passport number AW3177021, issued a day earlier. Ansari’s Pakistani passport, BM 6809341, issued on November 1, 2007, bears the pseudonym Hammad Hassan. LAST-MINUTE ALERTS On the eve of the Mumbai attacks, warnings continued to flow in. In late September, I.B. informants issued warnings that the Taj Mahal Palace & Tower hotel was on the list of a small set of high-profile targets selected by the Lashkar for a suicide-squad attack. The Research and Analysis Wing (RAW), too, on the basis of communications intelligence, learned that the Lashkar had carried out reconnaissance on targets in Mumbai’s Wasanji Road, including the Leela Kempinski hotel. Finally, on November 18, the RAW intercepted a satellite phone conversation originating in the Indian Ocean from a ship bound for India’s western coast. In the conversation, a still-unidentified Punjabi-speaking individual notified a contact in Lahore that his “cargo†would soon land in Mumbai. RAW communications experts determined that the Pakistani landline number was one sometimes used by a top Lashkar commander for operations directed against India, who is so far known only by the aliases “Muzammil†and “Abu Hurreraâ€. Indian Coast Guard ships were scrambled towards the location of the ship. Luck favoured the Lashkar. Even as the fidayeen squad bound for Mumbai panicked at the heightened Indian naval presence in the area, an opportunity presented itself. On November 15, a Porbandar-registered fishing boat, Kuber, was blown off course by bad weather. From the account of Ajmal Amin Kasab, investigators have determined that the boat was hijacked on the night of November 18. Later, the 10 fidayeen on the Kuber are thought to have shot dead four of the five crew members. After finally landing in Mumbai, the fidayeen broke up into five groups and headed towards targets they had previously trained to locate on high-resolution satellite maps. . . For weeks before the attacks, police sources told Frontline, Maharashtra Police officials met with top corporate security heads in an attempt to convince them of the need to invest in defending their facilities. Nothing was done. . . In a speech delivered on October 19 before an audience of key Lashkar leaders such as Maulana Amir Hamza, Qari Muhammad Yaqoob Sheikh and Muhammad Yahya Mujahid at the organisation’s headquarters in Lahore, the Lashkar chief made it clear that he saw India as an existential threat. India, he claimed, was building dams in Jammu and Kashmir to choke Pakistan’s water supplies and cripple its agriculture. Earlier, in a speech on October 6, Saeed claimed India had “made a deal with the United States to send 150,000 Indian troops to Afghanistanâ€. He claimed India had agreed to support the U.S. in an existential war against Islam. Finally, in a sermon to a religious congregation at the Jamia Masjid al-Qudsia in Lahore at the end of October, Saeed proclaimed that there was an “ongoing war in the world between Islam and its enemiesâ€. He said that “crusaders of the East and West have united in a cohesive onslaught against Muslimsâ€.

Please read the entire article. I concentrated only on the lashkar bits.

[vroomfondel]

actually as a whole, we should be concentrating on good journalism from sources like the hindu etc. this 'breaking news' bullshit is contradictory and can lead to confusion which feeds conspiracy theorists. there is plenty of evidence around. only someone who a) does not want to see b) believes in elaborate fabrications/fairytales. neither is worth any wasted effort.

[Bumper]

as expected barrage of bouncers coming my way yet no one even tried to answer the question asked in this thread http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showthread.php?t=125652 thanks...that was the initial point. Now i replace that with a hindu terrorist organization and assume that the Indian army is trying to kill them all then YES it does make a big difference. Now please take a deep breath, put your "objective" hat on and please listen to the following i genuinely think that there is a very very small chance that LeT or any other terrorist organization from PAK was involved because of the following reasons 1- The fact that the Indian Navy is one of the best in the world. 2- The fact that Karachi is 900 km away from Mumbai 3- The fact that the boat stayed in water for several hours. 4- The fact that even fishermen on either side are caught easily. 5- The fact that it is a VERY active coast line. 6- The fact that the Mumbai oil refinery(perhaps IND's biggest financial asset) is in the area 7- The fact that they have NUMEROUS radars tracking the happenings in the water. So how they allegedly got themselves all the way to shore of Mumbai is quite unbelievable. Then there are numerous other questions about weapons, transportation, communication, security at ground zero, security around the city, security around the shore etc etc etc ...and these men are allegedly smart enough to fox one of the finest navy on the planet, get all the way to the finest hotels in IND's most important city and kill innocent lives for 3 days yet dumb enough to make AND receive phone calls to Karachi and Lahore and all that other obvious evidence that police is talking and remember we are NOT taking about a entire ship full of people, we are talking about mere 10 men. After listening to all of the above if you still don't want to ponder about the whole thing then fair enough we have to agree to disagree. adios

MP am afraid your defense is pretty lame. Its like saying: 1) US has the best airforce in the world 2) US is several 1000 kms away from Afghanistan 3) US has stringent security policies at airports & customs 4) US has stringent visa procedures And therefore Bin Laden could not have been involved in 9/11 Not 9/11, infact any arbitrary crime in history could be dismissed with such explanation. Anyways, you sound like you dont want this to be LeT & therefore will cling onto anything that strengthens your point. That said, you dont have to trust the Indian media, but what about US/UK & other international media, why do you think they agree that this came from Pakistan ?

[Ram]

Just the mere fact that a terrorist has been captured and FBI given access to him for interrogation purposes blows a big gaping hole in this conspiracy theory. No sensible govt./agency would go to such massive lengths to set up such an elaborate hoax, only to capture one of the attackers and hand them to the world's best sleuth agency, only for them to uncover the truth later on.

[Guest dada_rocks]

Reall funny take on pakistanis and their call for evidence Pakistan President Zardari called a dick to spy on his mistress Laila who once roamed the streets of Lahore. He told the dick: “I love Laila but when I am away on tour I suspect a lover is coming to see her. I want full evidence that he is doing it. You understand? I want the report ready when I am back. Zardari came back after a week later and called the dick. The dick said: Sir, as soon as you left a handsome guy as good-looking as your foreign minister Qureshi came and knocked on the door. Then what? Zardari asked. Then your mistress opened the door and as the guy entered she closed the door. However the windows were open and I could see clearly the guy picking up your sweetheart in his arms and taking her upstairs after a little small talk. Then what? asked Zardari. Again I could see them upstairs through a window and he was still holding her in his arms and swinging her back and forth and even as she kissed him on his cheek the guy threw Laila on the bed with a thud. Then what? Zardari asked. Then the guy came to the window and closed it and drew the curtains. I could not see anything as it was dark. An angry Zardari exploded. “You idiot, always that doubt remains whether they did it or not. Always that doubt. I thought you will give me enough evidence to show that they had done it. Without any evidence now I will have to live with that doubt for ever.”

[Fontaine]

Zardari knows full well the extent of the support/aid/source for these terrorist attacks in Mumbai. He just doesn't want to appear like the meat puppet he is in front of the whole world if he reveals the truth. That the democratically elected government is just a figurehead and the real power and authority lies with the military groups like ISI. Sh*t, the Washington Post only recently interviewed an Lashkar -e- toilet operative in Pak and he said they have camps and operations on both sides of the border. If a reporter can find this guy then the Pak government know where they live and what they do. They just can't stand the fact that they'll lose face to India if they do so. It's funny, from Musharruf to Zardari, these clowns will dance like a stripper for the US and it's dollars and lick their boots and have no shame but act all high and mighty when India makes similar demands. The US got the ENTIRE Pak army to fight a proxy war against it's own people and tribes, while Pak still pretends to have some dignity when India just ask for wanted and known terrorists and criminals.

[Fontaine]

Reall funny take on pakistanis and their call for evidence Pakistan President Zardari called a dick to spy on his mistress Laila who once roamed the streets of Lahore. He told the dick: “I love Laila but when I am away on tour I suspect a lover is coming to see her. I want full evidence that he is doing it. You understand? I want the report ready when I am back. Zardari came back after a week later and called the dick. The dick said: Sir, as soon as you left a handsome guy as good-looking as your foreign minister Qureshi came and knocked on the door. Then what? Zardari asked. Then your mistress opened the door and as the guy entered she closed the door. However the windows were open and I could see clearly the guy picking up your sweetheart in his arms and taking her upstairs after a little small talk. Then what? asked Zardari. Again I could see them upstairs through a window and he was still holding her in his arms and swinging her back and forth and even as she kissed him on his cheek the guy threw Laila on the bed with a thud. Then what? Zardari asked. Then the guy came to the window and closed it and drew the curtains. I could not see anything as it was dark. An angry Zardari exploded. “You idiot, always that doubt remains whether they did it or not. Always that doubt. I thought you will give me enough evidence to show that they had done it. Without any evidence now I will have to live with that doubt for ever.â€

You're wrong. I think you'll find it's quite clear that the gentlemen isn't like Qureshi but looks exactly like George Bush!! :haha:

[triam]

MP I will try to reply once regarding this with you, since you generally come across as a very reasonable person, otherwise I would not bother. Usually when somebody innocent is accused of some guilt, the normal chain of actions from the innocent party are anger and transparency. I see anger a lot of anger from the Pakistani side, but where is the transparency? Instead we get these conspiracy theories one after the another. The questions you have raised are valid, except that the question should be how did our security agencies fail in such a grandiose fashion, but you are not asking the hows of it, you are making an assumption that they cant fail, a big assumption at that and based on that assumption you say this is not possible. In Mathematics when you state a theorem, you can make assumptions but at the end of the theorem you better make sure your assumptions are proven and not remain assumptions. Going by your thought process,The IB, The RAW, the Navy, the coast guard, the home ministry, the mumbai police, maybe the FBI and some other organizations should work hand in hand with whichever party you are accusing, to have pulled this off. That is far more of a stretch than to believe there are holes in India's existing defense machinery and there by was breached in spectacular fashion.

[THX_1138]

The first highlight is brilliant. Tom Friedman is pretty cool. Isn't he the guy who wrote "The World is Flat" ?

yeah...

[veer]

you guys are talking to brainwashed pakis here... i can understand if uneducated people would talk like that but the educated people saying all these is just unbelievable... by not condoning these events, they are indeed supporting those terrorists.. pakis should burn in hell for this... these guys are good for nothing.. they did zilch for the world... loook at this and see how their thought process works... http://www.hotklix.com/?ref=content/152704

[THX_1138]

chaloo best of luck with your "offline" life Point was the LeT is a banned organization in Pakistan and is not connected to the civilian government while BJP IS the government. So it doesn't make sense to compare the 2.

the BJP's image has been maligned by the actions of a dozen influential individuals, all limited to the state of Gujarat. Beyond that particular state, the party's stance is right of center. Nonetheless, they are a democratic party, just as the jammu kashmir liberation front begun as a political party, just as the national socialist party begun as a political party in germany in the last 1920s, and just as the new nationallist socialist party that rose to prominence in the last general election in germany from the city of brandenburg. in all these cases, the organization did not turn into an abomination till the time it resisted democracy and adopted a military wing. the LeT and the plethora of other so called Kashmir liberation organizations who change their name on a periodic basis to avoid scrutiny, are neither a democratic party, and nor are they agencies promoting democracy. furthermore, for a banned organization, they operate with remarkable impunity from the cities of muzafarbad. The essential run a state within a state... an autonomous organization that is evidently beyond the clutches of the local law enforcement. the question here is, how is the LeT able to do so? how is a banned organization operating, not in anonymity, from an urban region of pakistan? and why is the pakistan law enforcement unable to curb them or even apprehend them as it ought to for a banned organization. the answer is, because the LeT enjoys considerable local support. This maps back to the second highlighted phrase: organizations that engage in terrorism operate because they feel that they are acting on behalf of the majority that is approving, and even appreciative of their actions. and its only when this majority, which is aligned under a peaceful religion, speaks out in a voice loud enough to drown out the rhetoric of the LeT, will the later become less impervious to the law enforcement. you cannot claim to be a tolerant society when you are not outspoken about the extremist elements within your midst. that is what friedman is attempting to say here.

[THX_1138]

Banned? All these symbolic bans dont even last the days they were enforced. If the Pak govt. bans 'LeT'' date=' the next, they're up and running with a [b']new name, new front, new logo, new brand.. Only, their people are the same and their intent is the same; to spread Islamic terrorism in India. And where is Pakistani govt. bombing the LeT anyway? I dont recollect the LeT having significant operation in NWFP, FATA areas, which is where most of the Pakistani bombing happens. And its no secret the LeT operates mostly out of PoK and Punjab. Yes, Friedman's analogy of comparing the LeT and BJP is wrong, but so is your justification for not comparing the two. Besides, the whole article's point isnt about the analogy anyway.

actually they changed their name. jamat-el-dawa is the new front for LeT. after the 2006 earthquakes, the JeD came to prominence for its relief efforts as it was the first organization to reach the disaster sites. as a result, they secured considerable local support and that translated into larger recruitment. the BBC did an expose on this through their weekly radio program: BBC Radio 4 All Things Considered.

[THX_1138]

as expected barrage of bouncers coming my way yet no one even tried to answer the question asked in this thread http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showthread.php?t=125652 thanks...that was the initial point. Now i replace that with a hindu terrorist organization and assume that the Indian army is trying to kill them all then YES it does make a big difference. Now please take a deep breath, put your "objective" hat on and please listen to the following i genuinely think that there is a very very small chance that LeT or any other terrorist organization from PAK was involved because of the following reasons 1- The fact that the Indian Navy is one of the best in the world. 2- The fact that Karachi is 900 km away from Mumbai 3- The fact that the boat stayed in water for several hours. 4- The fact that even fishermen on either side are caught easily. 5- The fact that it is a VERY active coast line. 6- The fact that the Mumbai oil refinery(perhaps IND's biggest financial asset) is in the area 7- The fact that they have NUMEROUS radars tracking the happenings in the water. So how they allegedly got themselves all the way to shore of Mumbai is quite unbelievable. Then there are numerous other questions about weapons, transportation, communication, security at ground zero, security around the city, security around the shore etc etc etc ...and these men are allegedly smart enough to fox one of the finest navy on the planet, get all the way to the finest hotels in IND's most important city and kill innocent lives for 3 days yet dumb enough to make AND receive phone calls to Karachi and Lahore and all that other obvious evidence that police is talking and remember we are NOT taking about a entire ship full of people, we are talking about mere 10 men. After listening to all of the above if you still don't want to ponder about the whole thing then fair enough we have to agree to disagree. adios

The american army is not one of the best in the world. It is the ruddy best. The american navy is twice as much better than the rest of the world combined. The american soldier is better equipped and better trained than any other soldier in the world. yet we have over 100,000 illegal immigrants slip into the country on a yearly basis. a certain number of these immigrants are drug mules. there is an estimated 100 million dollars worth of drug trade across the border, illegal of course, on a monthly basis along the california-mexico border alone. there are some 1000 cuban refugees arriving in the united states every year from cuba, across the caribean sea. so yeah, because we have a better navy than most in india, it does not imply in one bit that our coastal borders are sealed shut...

[Guest dada_rocks]

I have question for all pakistanis who are in denial: What constitutes evidence in your mind in a terror attack like this ? To me it looks like you have some arcane idea of evidence which is impossible in a scenario like this but still let us hear; what constitutes evidence in your view. BTW here is a senisble Pakistani's take on that clamour for evidence: http://dawn.com/weekly/mazdak/mazdak.htm Each time an atrocity like Mumbai occurs, and Pakistan is accused of being involved, the defensive mantra chanted by the chorus of official spokesmen is: “Show us the proof.” The reality is that in terrorist operations planned in secret, there is not much of a paper trail left behind. Nine times out of ten, the perpetrators do not survive to give evidence before a court. But in this case, one terrorist did survive, and Ajmal Amir Kamal’s story points to Lashkar-e-Tayyaba. The sophistication of the attack is testimony to careful planning and rigorous training. --------Irfan Hussain

[Lurker]

Each time an atrocity like Mumbai occurs, and Pakistan is accused of being involved, the defensive mantra chanted by the chorus of official spokesmen is: “Show us the proof.” The reality is that in terrorist operations planned in secret, there is not much of a paper trail left behind. Nine times out of ten, the perpetrators do not survive to give evidence before a court. But in this case, one terrorist did survive, and Ajmal Amir Kamal’s story points to Lashkar-e-Tayyaba. The sophistication of the attack is testimony to careful planning and rigorous training. --------Irfan Hussain

Yeah read that yesterday night. What took me by total surprise is ALL of the opinion piece was on Mumbai and in more ways than one they ALL admitted to Pakistan's role. Well all except Cowasjee who wrote on a different issue but he did mention Tatas in glowing piece. Any educated Pakistani who reads Dawns Op-ed piece should see where the problem lies with Pakistan. Without India, or Indians, mentioning it. xxx

[King Tendulkar]

chill yaar...all conspiracy theories have these "burning questions" that their propagators think are "smoking guns". 9/11 waale are also like that, also there are still people who believe that US never went on the moon -- they discuss how shadows on the pictures of moon imply it was done in the studio. the best way to respond to reasonable people is to answer questions reasonably. at some point, either they concede or end the conversation.

This post sums it up. Paks just coming up with conspiracy theories as they do in such circumstances in there desperation to deny and deny. USA seems to know the truth after Rice came to India. As it seems yanks clearly believe paks were behind this and are putting some sort of squeeze on pak after seeing the indian evidence. Strong reports that strong evidence of ISI involvement and proof is there and shown to USA. If so congress played it quite well. Show evidence to USA first and then it becomes concreate fact. They also let it drag for a few days so pak could humilate themselves for days by denying it and saying india was making it up and not giving proof.

[Guest dada_rocks]

Yeah read that yesterday night. What took me by total surprise is ALL of the opinion piece was on Mumbai and in more ways than one they ALL admitted to Pakistan's role. Well all except Cowasjee who wrote on a different issue but he did mention Tatas in glowing piece. Any educated Pakistani who reads Dawns Op-ed piece should see where the problem lies with Pakistan. Without India, or Indians, mentioning it. xxx

Only guy spouting irrrelvent nonsense on dawn.com is an Indian muslim, Javed Naqvi. trying his best to picture Indian army in bad light on basis of Pakistan lover William Dalrymple's account aboout some incident. Even he has not questioned the Pakistan's involvement theory though. His psy-op against Indian army notwithstanding

[Guest dada_rocks]

A complete HiDef video of the suspects caught red handed and certified by Musharraf. I think that would do.

I do not think even that will satisfy this denialists. See they do not attach much credence to video unless some documentary maker is given access to the whole operation from start to finish. Even then they might ask why wud LET capture this all on video. It feels like anything which could be remotely termed as evidence the pet reply is why would terrrosit leave this or that evidence. They are basically expecting full-proof operation where no trail is left from terrorists and whenever they fall short of that exalted expectations, case is made that terrorist a perfectionist in their mind would not err. Some guy is making a point that India waters is impregnable God knows where from he got that idea. If he is interested I can direct him to operation-water-rat done by ibnlive in 2006 which showed how inefficient the coastal line policing is. BB they might even question that certification from Mushy.. Anyway can we hear fromo socalle sensible denialists . "What constitutes evidence, please enlilghten us . we want to understand how you guys think. "