Lurker Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 Only guy spouting irrrelvent nonsense on dawn.com is an Indian muslim' date=' Javed Naqvi.[/quote'] Actually I quite like him. I dont agree with him all the time, probably most of the time, but his article are very different really. He writes in anecdotal manner and touches on subject that most dont
MundaPakistani Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 You're making one MASSIVE mistake. Yes, the Indian Navy is really powerful, but its the Coast Guard that patrols India coastal regions and her waters. You wont find a frigate or a warship intecepting strayed fisherman boats and asking them for papers, its the Coast Guard that does it. Admittedly, as with most South Asian countries, our Coast guard is poorly equipped to meet the challenges of this new century. Even so, No Navy in the world is powerful enough to deploy employ effective surveillance of each and every Merchant Vessel that plies in its waters. Dont forget, African immigrants routinely cross over from Northern Africa into Europe in the small boats and trawlers. Most of them are caught, but some of 'em slip through. And you must have heard of the repeated hijacking of ships off Northern Africa, despite it being patrolled by NATO, US and Indian American warships. Enough said. Illegal immigrants don't carry large weapons so its a LOT more difficult to catch them when they eventually make to their way to the land. Secondly they don't have to deal with an active coast line Again, So? Fishing Trawlers are equipped to go deep into the Sea waters, because of the 'catch' is better there. Its just normal practice for fisherman to go 100s of kms from their coastline. Many times, they're away for days, if not weeks, into their fishing trip. So, given the nature of the equipment ( a midsized fishing trawler), the distance is no big deal Yes, but they masqueraded as fisherman, which is why they were let off. Its not like as though they had a placard proclaiming their terror intentions stuck to their hull. You musnt forget, this boat was stopped by the Coast Guard, who checked the papers and let them go. Obviously, all the papers were well made fakes How can that NOT be a factor? when you have enemy boat moving around in your water for several hours and is allowed to go around doing whatever they want? There are also reports that they made stops at some other places before going all the way to Mumbai . Yes, they are, but many times, fisherman manage to slip the net. If you hear 2 instances of fisherman being caught, there will 10 corresponding instances of fisherman successfully intruding into foreign waters and coming back, that is not reported on the news. fishermen don't carry weapons and still thousands of them are caught every year. Irrelevant to the current discussion. Thousands of fishing trawlers ply these waters. Its almost a logistical impossibility to patrol these waters effectively. Again, whats that got to do with the current discussion? Even Gujrat has a refiniery, arent there fisherman not allowed to operate out of it. No, its very important to consider the fact the happening in the water are tracked due to the active coast. Don't tell me that there is no security in the outskirts of IND's biggest financial asset. Yes, they do, but they cant track whats INSIDE the boat, namely, some terrorist with hideous intentions and a load weapons. Allegedly there was a hijacking of another boat which went unnoticed No, its entirely plausible, given how poor India maritime and land security apparatus is. And the terrorists have no other option but to use satellite phones to be in touch with their bosses back in the 'base' Now that you have told me why you think this is all a hoax carried out by Indian agencies, hear me on why I think its not. So on one hand we have a height of incompetency which allowed the whole thing to happen yet on the other hand the Indian officials figured out the whole plan, who did it and how they came with in HOURS of after the first bullet was shot. Isn't there a massive inconsistency? 1) Assuming that this was all an elaborate hoax, the last thing that these 'Indian govt' agencies' would want is CCTV images of the terrorists, flashing all over the national news. If you set up some people to blow some hotels and kill some people, the last thing you want is have their faces, all over the national and world media. Thats an absolutel no-brainer, coz that immediately gives away the identities of these men, leaving open the possibility of someone ultimately finding out that these men arent Pakistani terrorists after all, but Hindu nationalists set up by the Indian govt. Indian officals were very confident after the samjoutha express blast(which killed both Pakistanis and Indians) as welll. The finger was pointed start at Pakistan yet it turned out that an official from RAW was involved. I may be wrong but the immediate blame on an organization from Pakistan was a sign of panic. 2) You keep forgetting that there's a captured terrorist. Now, if an Indian agency set these men-up, would they then go on to 'capture' them? And worse, give FBI access to him for interrogation? Thats just a stupid thing to do. This is another body blow in this whole conspiracy theory. No, i am NOT saying that it was an inside job. If the guy is telling the truth then we will surely find out but as of now its not a concrete enough evidence(as is the case when militants in Pakistan name RAW for funding their terrorist actions) article from October http://www.geo.tv/10-22-2008/27378.htm . Will be willing to alter my opinion if the official report by the FBI agrees with the Indian police.
Guest dada_rocks Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 Will be willing to alter my opinion if the official report by the FBI agrees with the Indian police. FBI and indian intelligence agree on indian embassy blast in Afghanistan. So do you buy now that ISI was involved in indian embassy blast.
King Tendulkar Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 FBI and indian intelligence agree on indian embassy blast in Afghanistan. So do you buy now that ISI was involved in indian embassy blast. Love to see him answer that. I have a feeling MP will ignore that one!
Fontaine Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 Will be willing to alter my opinion if the official report by the FBI agrees with the Indian police. If you thought your house was on fire, you wouldn't sit around and wait for the roof to fall down around you until you decided there was sufficient proof. Well, that's the situation Pakistan is in. It's a military run state where terror attacks are the increasing norm, with ex ISI officials boasting how they've run terrorist camps for these groups and has been alienated and ostracised from the rest of the world. Every citizen in Pakistan shouldn't be asking "where is the proof" but demanding that it's government and military do it's absolute best to wipe out terrorism support from it's soil. Not just because it's in Indian interests, but in Pakistan's best interests to do so. Put it like this, when the US insisted on Pak support the entire army was dispatched to the NW regions to combat the Mujahideen etc and no proof was demanded even though US politicians doctored and manipulated proof of Iraq's involvement with Al-Queida and weapons of mass destruction. Yet when the Indian government asks for a list of just 20 wanted and suspected criminals including underworld crime dons, Zardari says there is no proof? It's this kind of blindness that has mired Pakistan into the swamp it's sinking in. What do you think those criminal elements are DOING in Pakistan? Helping children cross the street and helping old people carry their shopping bags? Yet Zardari not only gives haven to these criminals and dangerous men but protects them from justice. lol! You had the Indian home minister resign within hours of the Mumbai attack, yet in Pakistan no such thing has occurred by any politician even though there are terrorist attacks every week there and the official line is well that we don't have any links to these terror groups. The only one Pakistan is fooling with this act is itself and it's people.
Guest dada_rocks Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 He is ignoring the uncomfortables one very smartly. Earlier I asked her to make clear what constitutes evidence since everything India throws he is not convinced so it's reasonable to ask what actually will satisfy them. I figured if FBI agrees with indian version then he might buy into it. Hence I asked does he agree indian embassy blast was done by ISI given FBI and indian intelligence are in agreement.
King Tendulkar Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 He is ignoring the uncomfortables one very smartly. Earlier I asked her to make clear what constitutes evidence since everything India throws he is not convinced so it's reasonable to ask what actually will satisfy them. I figured if FBI agrees with indian version then he might buy into it. Hence I asked does he agree indian embassy blast was done by ISI given FBI and indian intelligence are in agreement. He always does and always will. He does tthe same even in regards to pak cricket, so when it comes to these more important matters its a no brainer what he will do. I asked some questions earlier to him which he avoided.
MundaPakistani Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 they might have been involved. ISI(like RAW) is far from perfect and there are a lot of bad apple in there but for at the same time PAK need ISI just like India need RAW. p.s now can my simply question about Raj Thackeray be answered? that thread has been lonely for the last couple of days. Its very strange that a lot of you guys are NOT interested in the "right" answers and are more interested in answer that you WANT which is clearly proven by the fact that no one bumped the Raj Thackeray thread and no one bothered to look in to it even AFTER i asked the question.
King Tendulkar Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 they might have been involved. ISI(like RAW) is far from perfect and there are a lot of bad apple in there but for at the same time PAK need ISI just like India need RAW. p.s now can my simply question about Raj Thackeray be answered? that thread has been lonely for the last couple of days. Its very strange that a lot of you guys are NOT interested in the "right" answers and are more interested in answer that you WANT which is clearly proven by the fact that no one bumped the Raj Thackeray thread and no one bothered to look in to it even AFTER i asked the question. More like was involved, at least you admit that your ISI is involved in terrorist activities. Never heard a pakistan ever admit that, so I applaud you for that and for facing the realities. Thats a start at least. Can you please now tell that to other paks so more become enlightened. Why do you need ISI. To back, fund and train terrorists. What do you think of ISI ivolvement in terrorist acts? What did you post about Raj Thackeray missed that!
Guest dada_rocks Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 they might have been involved. ISI(like RAW) is far from perfect and there are a lot of bad apple in there but for at the same time PAK need ISI just like India need RAW. p.s now can my simply question about Raj Thackeray be answered? that thread has been lonely for the last couple of days. Its very strange that a lot of you guys are NOT interested in the "right" answers and are more interested in answer that you WANT which is clearly proven by the fact that no one bumped the Raj Thackeray thread and no one bothered to look in to it even AFTER i asked the question. Leave RAW aside we will talk about ti when we have evidence that ti did somethign this equivocation by invoking RAW sounds like lookign forjustification fo ISS involvement in indian embassy attack. No official stamp have bene given by Pakistan with or without evidence of any RAW involvement in any event in recent past. What is that Raj Thackrey question
MundaPakistani Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 Might more like was involved at least you admit that your ISI is involved in terrorist activities. Thats a start at least. Can you please now tell that to other paks so more become enlightened. Why do you need ISI. To back, fund and train terrorists. What do you think of ISI ivolvement in terrorist acts? What did you post about Raj Thackeray missed that! ISI is the PAK's protective shield. Instead of throwing it away its better to fix the institution. Don't think IND will throw away their "RAW" just because its officials have been involved in terrorist activities. Despite numerous bad apples BOTH countries need their intelligence agencies.
King Tendulkar Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 For the record I think Raj Thackeray is a total idiot and would have him beaten in public if i had my way!
punjabi_khota Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 they might have been involved. ISI(like RAW) is far from perfect and there are a lot of bad apple in there but for at the same time PAK need ISI just like India need RAW. p.s now can my simply question about Raj Thackeray be answered? that thread has been lonely for the last couple of days. Its very strange that a lot of you guys are NOT interested in the "right" answers and are more interested in answer that you WANT which is clearly proven by the fact that no one bumped the Raj Thackeray thread and no one bothered to look in to it even AFTER i asked the question. :haha::haha::haha::haha:. There might be a fatwa coming your way for even admitting that. But as always, as is any Pakistanis birth right, they justify that by putting India as its equal. Which ofcourse, if BULL *****
MundaPakistani Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 leave RAW aside:haha: check the politics forum
punjabi_khota Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 ISI is the PAK's protective shield. Instead of throwing it away its better to fix the institution. Don't think IND will throw away their "RAW" just because its officials have been involved in terrorist activities. Despite numerous bad apples BOTH countries need their intelligence agencies. Aahh, the bad apple theory to the rescue again!!!! Yeah!!!!!! Your ****ing whole country is a big basket of rotting stinking bad apples. I hope it goes down fast. Evidence or no evidence, since you don't seem to see any of it.
seedhi Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 Indian officals were very confident after the samjoutha express blast(which killed both Pakistanis and Indians) as welll. The finger was pointed start at Pakistan yet it turned out that an official from RAW was involved. I may be wrong but the immediate blame on an organization from Pakistan was a sign of panic. You are wrong, there was just one exaggerated claim made by a prosecutor in court linking Purohit to the blasts in order to secure his remand. THE CLAIM WAS RETRACTED THE NEXT DAY. SIMI is the main suspect in the Samjhauta blasts and the plot was revealed by Safdar Nagori. I dont understand what more evidence is needed than the terrorist captured alive, the satellite calls made to pakistan, the plethora of evidence left in the boat. All this has been shown to the FBI too. The US already had warning that such a terrorist attack might be launched from pakistan. Evidently the terrorists did not even bother to coverup the pakistani involvement as the goal is most surely to provoke a military buildup like in 2002, as this would help the Al-Qaeda on the western border.
Guest dada_rocks Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 leave RAW aside:haha: check the politics forum Can you find me a single case in recent past where govt of pakistan has approached india with any level of evidence against RAW for any untoward event.. You sreiously dont want me to take the unofficial whisper in media circles seriously do you. I already answered go check the answer.. You are clutching at straw in Raj Thackrey proclamation
veer Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 But as always' date=' as is any Pakistanis birth right, they justify that by putting India as its equal. Which ofcourse, if BULL *****[/quote'] exactly.. these bunch of pakis dont wanna think or see beyond India.. its always India and India......
King Tendulkar Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 ISI is the PAK's protective shield. Instead of throwing it away its better to fix the institution. Don't think IND will throw away their "RAW" just because its officials have been involved in terrorist activities. Despite numerous bad apples BOTH countries need their intelligence agencies. Well how can it be fixed? No one wants it fixed it in pak. They all know its involved in carrying forth their ideological battles. Yet pakistanis seem comfortable with that especially when it was helping jihadis in kashmir. This was approved by all and sundry in pak. Unfortunatley this formation of jihadis by ISI and army to fight in kashmir has been the route of all your problems. It actually has backfired and is now destroying pak. You created monsters, you cant control monsters. The frakstein problem has arisen. They now go and launch jihad against their masters. Now pak is ravaged by jihadis and islamic fundies tearing your country to shreds. If pak had simply opted for raoad of peace and not worry about ideology and worried more about wealth and prosperity. Pakistans may have has a country they could be proud of, instaed they hang their head in shame and do not comprehend why they are in this mess. RAW is not involved in terrorism. What proof do you have apart from dodgy internet sites and conspiracy theories? Intelligence services are there to detect possible threats to the country. Not as ISI does to train jihadis , fund them to launch terrorist strikes in other countires. The worrying thing for you as a pak is that your govt has no conntrol over the ISI at all! You should be worried about that
Guest dada_rocks Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 MP I iknow for eternity the over-zealous theory of Mumbai ATS which lasted just for an hour in face of evidence will be a gospel in matter of Samjhauta express for all pakistanis > but facts are this. (1)MUmbai ATS claimed samjhauta was blasted by RDX procured by Col Pandit. This claim doesn;t hold water in face of forensic data which concluded it was liquid based explosive and no RDX was used in samjahita express. That theory of mumbai ATS died its natural death in face of this evidence within 24 hours and ATS officially renged on the nonsense they tried to spew. I know no amoount of evidence is going to convince any pakistani for eternity to come but that's the fact. Investigation has already been finsihed Samjahuta express case and oen gentleman the mastermind of blast Safdar nagori is behind bars and his revelation has averted various subsequent attacks.. PS: Suggestion for indian agencies why can't you guys show some responsbility. See how your over-zealous legless theories shape people's opinion. Then again ATS is not to blame our polticians drove that breaking-news style of investigation where one after another non-sensical revelation a day was norm to be reneged on very next day of course.
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