Irfan hussain once again tells it like only he can on that side of border

[Guest dada_rocks]

Let us hope it's just occasional

[King Tendulkar]

MP is level headed poster but has close ties to a website where the majority is British Pakistanis - the most unreasonable and bigotted group of people I have come across in general.....I don't blame him if some of their conspiracy theories leave the occasional impression on him.

So he has close ties with loony brit paks. No wonder he posts crazy stuff at times. He is ridiculous defences of all anything pak does not mark him as sensible. Yet to see him post anything negative about pak and islam. He denies denies and denies, then tries to spin his way out and then will justify when dust settles, text book pak

[King Tendulkar]

Another interesting article on pak terrorism The 'charity' that plotted the Mumbai attacks Pakistan has a hard job rooting out militancy. But it cannot let Jamaat-ud-Dawa carry on fooling people about its aims by Anthony Loyd Wriggling under the illumination of media scrutiny after accusations of its involvement in the slaughter in Mumbai, Jamaat-ud- Dawa's response last week was a workmanlike PR counter-move. Journalists were taken on a guided tour of the organisation's headquarters, 30 miles from Lahore, where a civilised lunch of spiced chicken and rice accompanied declarations of innocence, condemnation of the terrorist attack and claims to be nothing more than a charity group involved in relief work. Terrorists? Not us, guv. But in the northwestern Pakistani city of Peshawar, just three weeks before the Mumbai attacks, the advice of PR gurus was noticeably absent when I met a leading official from the group. “We don't like democracy,” Atiq ur-Rahman told me, eyes ablaze. “Our struggle is to establish an Islamic caliphate throughout the world. Whichever force tries to resist it shall be shattered.” He bubbled with the internal rage so characteristic of militants, and having given a perfunctory resumé of JuD's relief work among Pakistani civilians displaced by fighting and natural disaster, launched himself into a diatribe against India and the West. The rant concluded with an amazing on-the-spot attempt to recruit my interpreter, citing the abuse of Muslims by infidel forces in Somalia, Chechnya and Kashmir. In the embarrassed silence that followed his departure we were left to flick through a copy of Why We Are Performing Jihad, the jihadist manual that he had handed us to further his case. Though designated as a terrorist organisation by America in 2006, Jamaat-ud-Dawa remains a legitimate organisation in Pakistan where it has hundreds of offices and numerous “relief camps” throughout the country. Over and above similar militant organisations in Pakistan that have, more or less, been ostracised by Pakistani authorities in recent years, JuD is of specific importance now in highlighting the limits of Pakistan's commitment to combating regional and international terrorism, with special significance to the UK. For despite assurances from President Asif Zardari of co-operation with India in tracking down the Mumbai perpetrators, so far Pakistan has been dismissive of claims by Indian and Western security officials that the cell involved was trained, armed and funded by Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT), the militant organisation inside Pakistan that is the parent of JuD, and with which the terrorists allegedly communicated during the course of the operation. LeT was formed in Kunar province, Afghanistan, in 1989 by the Islamist Hafiz Mohammed Saeed. After the withdrawal of the Russians from Afghanistan the LeT, funded by the Pakistani intelligence service, the ISI, turned its attention to fighting Indian forces in Kashmir. The LeT's December 2001 attack on the Indian Parliament drew the neighbouring countries to the edge of war, after which the organisation was banned. The JuD, formed by Hafiz Saeed in 2002 as a charity organisation, emerged directly from the LeT being forced underground. Based in Lahore, the JuD has been accused ever since of being little more than the public front for the LeT's Kashmiri militants, in much the same way as Sinn Féin was for the IRA. Thanks to its high-profile relief work, notably in the wake of the 2005 earthquake in Kashmir, and a continued desire to preserve strategic assets to counter India's regional jockeying, Pakistani authorities have to date been unwilling to close down JuD offices, despite growing evidence of its involvement in terrorism. Shehzad Tanweer, one of the 7/7 London Tube bombers, allegedly met al-Qaeda commanders at the JuD madrassa in Lahore in 2004 and Hafiz Saeed was himself briefly detained there in 2006 - where he was questioned by British anti-terrorist squad detectives - and investigated for connections to the British-based terror cell plotting to blow up airliners over the Atlantic. (Rashid Rauf, the former baker boy from Birmingham on the run from authorities for his involvement in this plot, was killed by a US drone in Pakistan just a week before the Mumbai attacks.) America's headache with Jamaat-ud-Dawa is straightforward enough. Washington accuses it of recruiting and funding for the LeT, who in turn are attempting to reverse the US strategy of improving relations between Pakistan and India so as to focus Pakistan's efforts on the militant sanctuaries along its border with Afghanistan. Britain's worries are more acute and related directly to the disproportionate number of Kashmiris among the UK's 480,000-strong Pakistani population. Since 2001 British intelligence officers and diplomats have noted with alarm al-Qaeda's success in merging Kashmiri militants with the global jihadi network. British passportholders are particularly attractive recruits and the JuD, its offices and camps so far untouched in Pakistan, is now regarded as a key portal for young British Muslims seeking to join al-Qaeda. “These training camps... pose a real threat to the UK,” a diplomat in Islamabad told me in October. “Which is why Britain is asking for them to be closed down. The chief worry is that young British radicals travel to Pakistan, connect into Pakistani Kashmir and may gain some training there. They are then passed on to facilitation camps in Waziristan or Bajaur. Some then reappear in the UK. Others stay on in the tribal areas planning attack operation on the UK.” Pakistan's efforts to face up to the threat of its militancy should not be sneered at. Since 2001 it has lost more than 1,000 soldiers fighting militants along its frontier with Afghanistan and its troops remain heavily engaged in action in Bajaur tribal agency. Recently it has made serious efforts to clean up the ISI and purge it of renegade elements funding militant groups. But the Mumbai outrage has raised the bar, again, on the requirements for proof of Pakistan's commitment. For it to meet this challenge and concur with Western and Indian demands to act against the JuD, it will require a careful combination of pressure and inducement, as well as an intensification of regional efforts to resolve the Kashmir dispute. The militants who killed Hindus, Christians and Jews in Mumbai evidently saw their cause as part of a struggle connecting India with Kashmir, America, Afghanistan and Britain. If they are to be successfully countered, the moves against them will have have to be as many-headed, as widespread, and much more sophisticated.

[Guest dada_rocks]

are yoou kidding me ... he once got offended because Shwetabh called Razzak as Mazak .. as its a holy name ...

So often on thsi site people have takne stand against ridiculing of sacrosanct btu otherwise nonsensical belief be it of any relgion. I have alway been saying ridicule is the best weapon against religious nonsense.. these people can survive criticism but not ridicule.. So let us ridicule them all.. You can pick your own favourite punching bag

[Fontaine]

MP is level headed poster but has close ties to a website where the majority is British Pakistanis - the most unreasonable and bigotted group of people I have come across in general

Pretty much. From about as uneducated as you can get in terms of their own religion, but will defend it stupidly and blindly. Seems to me they have a major inferiority complex.

[vroomfondel]

MP is level headed poster but has close ties to a website where the majority is British Pakistanis - the most unreasonable and bigotted group of people I have come across in general.....I don't blame him if some of their conspiracy theories leave the occasional impression on him.

I have yet to see one concession of wrong-doing from this level-headed poster. That would be nice. I expect his return when Raj Thackeray is convicted of beating up couples on valentines day

[Lurker]

I find it ironical that in a thread about a liberal Pakistani author almost half, if not more, responses has been linked one way or the other to another liberal Pakistani, a poster on this website. Some of you dislike MP, fair enough, but how does that really explain your obsession on ganging up on him? How about getting back to Irfan Hussain's column?

[vroomfondel]

I find it ironical that in a thread about a liberal Pakistani author almost half, if not more, responses has been linked one way or the other to another liberal Pakistani, a poster on this website. Some of you dislike MP, fair enough, but how does that really explain your obsession on ganging up on him? How about getting back to Irfan Hussain's column?

With due respect to the original post and the ardent admirers of Irfanji, the article says nothing new. There has always been the ignored voice of reason in Pakistan, and it seems the trend will continue. Speaking for myself, I find this article pointless and very similar to the 2-3 op-eds of substance that the Pakistani media put together every year. As for MP, (again, speaking for myself) I am interested in how his "liberal" understanding of the world will twist the new facts squarely implicating his nation into Pakistani realities. It is a morbid fascination, much like watching Fear Factor. I also hold out the remote possibility of "good sense" setting in, probably because I have been brought up on years of India-Pak bhaibhai. JMHO -- feel free to steer thread to the more pertinent discussions of shayari.

[King Tendulkar]

The fact that MP is indeed a liberal pak/muslim sums up the problem. Just aimagine what the moderate/fundamentals are like!

[vroomfondel]

liberal pak/muslim

wtf? I have great respect for liberal muslims, but have yet to meet a pakistani liberal who is worth his/her salt when pressed on real issues. so KT, please don't do this pak/muslim equal-equal bull*****. Sagarkia (I think, Sardesai's wife) did a piece on CNN-IBN about it. All the CBM's in the world exist to encourage trade and liberal-to-liberal contact. But for all the Ghazal singers that cross the borders, when push comes to shove, on real issues like terrorism against India by the state of Pakistan liberals are as unwilling to listen as hard-liners. On an aside, and to go even further off topic: We all seem to be very self-satisfied with the fact that Pakistan is now an acknowledged state-sponsor of terror. OK, so what? Why the shabashi and pats on the back? I hope the Indian public realizes that Pakistan has done NOTHING to change the status-quo in its country. Just like when they "banned" LeT.

[Lurker]

Sagarkia (I think, Sardesai's wife) did a piece on CNN-IBN about it. All the CBM's in the world exist to encourage trade and liberal-to-liberal contact. But for all the Ghazal singers that cross the borders, when push comes to shove, on real issues like terrorism against India by the state of Pakistan liberals are as unwilling to listen as hard-liners.

And the situation is different in India exactly how Vroom? Anytime Dileep Kumar will talk of peace with Pakistan it is deemed as a typical "Muslim angle at play". I remember vividly how Shatrughan Sinha was roasted by Indian media after he was given some sort of award by Pakistan Govt(apparently Zia ul haq was a big fan). In recent times a Mahesh Bhatt, a Puja Bhatt are roasted over hot coals for giving chances to Pakistani singers. So lets not be diabolical here. The only difference between India and Pakistan is that while we both seem to enjoy liking and disliking each other from time to time, Indians dont go about killing Pakistanis as the latter seem to do.

[vroomfondel]

And the situation is different in India exactly how Vroom? Anytime Dileep Kumar will talk of peace with Pakistan it is deemed as a typical "Muslim angle at play". I remember vividly how Shatrughan Sinha was roasted by Indian media after he was given some sort of award by Pakistan Govt(apparently Zia ul haq was a big fan). In recent times a Mahesh Bhatt, a Puja Bhatt are roasted over hot coals for giving chances to Pakistani singers. So lets not be diabolical here. The only difference between India and Pakistan is that while we both seem to enjoy liking and disliking each other from time to time, Indians dont go about killing Pakistanis as the latter seem to do.

Don't knowingly confuse issues Lurker. I am the last person to be unnecessarily diabolical. I am not talking about Bollywood types and cultural exchanges. I consider your examples to be hiccups (there are some here who consider SRK a Pak apologist) in an otherwise outstanding cultural relationship -- Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, Adnan Sami (who has applied for an Indian passport btw), Salamat/Nazakat Ali, list goes on. Similarly they have welcomed our Bollywood types (despite a ban, which i wholeheartedly support. I wonder if this can be considered cultural terrorism by India ;) ). And of course, there is a lot of bonhomie in cricket as well. What I am talking about is political measures. Stuff that matters. IK Gujral shut down RAW operations in Pak (http://www.cfr.org/publication/17707/raw.html), going further back, Morarji Desai (Nishan-e-Pakistan winner and CIA operative perhaps) offered a list of Indian operatives/contacts in Pak to General Zia. After the Lahore declaration, we all know what happened. The list goes on... These actions of the political class of India have not happened in a vacuum. They have always been supported by the majority of the intelligentsia and liberals in India, and have been indicative of our attitude towards Pakistan. Remember Morarji's "elder brother" statement? We have been let down by Pakistan's actions after each successive political act of friendliness. Just like in India, Pakistani actions do not happen in a vacuum. They are either abetted by, or ignored by the intelligentsia and the liberals in Pakistan. Either that, or the Pak liberals are a silent voice that cannot stand up to the way pakistan has been for 40 years. In 40 years, if you can't make yourself heard aside from the occasional article in the Daily Yawn, then why the hell should anyone take seriously your weak voice of introspection?

[Guest dada_rocks]

Irfan husaain is not the problme he is the soln and people are discussing what soln irfan hussain is suggesting.. MP incidentally happens to be part of the problme masquerading as soln that's why people are ganging up on him.. One of the poster has succinctly put it, "If a sample llike MP is moderate toelrant sensible liberal on that side of border then ladies and gentleman we have serious freaking problem."

[vroomfondel]

and btw, on the MP issue. how can you or shwetabh or anyone else call him a liberal after the glee with which he posted in the raj thackeray thread? i mean, what a retarded thing to say. i'm not sure if i should be angry at him or embarrassed for him.

[Guest dada_rocks]

and btw, on the MP issue. how can you or shwetabh or anyone else call him a liberal after the glee with which he posted in the raj thackeray thread? i mean, what a retarded thing to say. i'm not sure if i should be angry at him or embarrassed for him.

I always believed bar is lower for samples from that side of the border But this time it seems people have removed the bar:--D Another reason is that there are not many pakistani samples here so more quarter is given to him and few others just to have some pakistani representation.. Idea is if you corner them more may be they will leave and an online forum needs samples from everywhere you see.

[Cricketics]

are yoou kidding me ... he once got offended because Shwetabh called Razzak as Mazak .. as its a holy name ...

that might be true. i and believe that shouldn't happen. but yaha ICF pe bhi log bot senti ho jaatein hai on small things. i remember it was do or die game of India against sri lanka in 2007 world cup and someone create a thread with something like this "Ram vs Ravan" and then there was this huge thread dedicated to that discussion and the title was finally changed

[Guest dada_rocks]

Ravana was a very respectable and learned brahmin btw there is no shame in being associated with ravana

[Lurker]

What I am talking about is political measures. Stuff that matters. IK Gujral shut down RAW operations in Pak (http://www.cfr.org/publication/17707/raw.html), going further back, Morarji Desai (Nishan-e-Pakistan winner and CIA operative perhaps) offered a list of Indian operatives/contacts in Pak to General Zia. After the Lahore declaration, we all know what happened. The list goes on... These actions of the political class of India have not happened in a vacuum. They have always been supported by the majority of the intelligentsia and liberals in India, and have been indicative of our attitude towards Pakistan. Remember Morarji's "elder brother" statement? We have been let down by Pakistan's actions after each successive political act of friendliness.

Fair enough. Your assertions basically tells us that Indian policies have been correct over the longer period of time, although I am sure many will take it as a failed policy considering how Indians have been killed in India. Pakistan using the same policy, which some would consider as successful, has essentially wiped out their own nation. So quite a quandry to say who/what worked out better.

Just like in India, Pakistani actions do not happen in a vacuum. They are either abetted by, or ignored by the intelligentsia and the liberals in Pakistan. Either that, or the Pak liberals are a silent voice that cannot stand up to the way pakistan has been for 40 years. In 40 years, if you can't make yourself heard aside from the occasional article in the Daily Yawn, then why the hell should anyone take seriously your weak voice of introspection?

Liberal voices, in general, is lot more decent than right wingers who happen to be bellicose. 10 right wingers can raise a ruckus that can be raised by say 20 liberals. I would still say there are a ton of Pakistani liberals, Irfan Hussain including, but their voices are submerged by what ISI and military does. Now if your assertion is why doesnt PAkistani liberal do anything about it well thats a million dollar question. How does Dictatorship work in a country where people loath dictatorship? I wish I had an answer. xxx

[Guest dada_rocks]

Fair enough. Your assertions basically tells us that Indian policies have been correct over the longer period of time, although I am sure many will take it as a failed policy considering how Indians have been killed in India. Pakistan using the same policy, which some would consider as successful, has essentially wiped out their own nation. So quite a quandry to say who/what worked out better. Liberal voices, in general, is lot more decent than right wingers who happen to be bellicose. 10 right wingers can raise a ruckus that can be raised by say 20 liberals. I would still say there are a ton of Pakistani liberals, Irfan Hussain including, but their voices are submerged by what ISI and military does. Now if your assertion is why doesnt PAkistani liberal do anything about it well thats a million dollar question. How does Dictatorship work in a country where people loath dictatorship? I wish I had an answer. xxx

You have been fooled.. pakistanis by desing are dictatorshipo lover.. every once in a while they might complain but come forst hardship they start pining for dictatorship.... There is no other reason whatsoeve for continuation fo dictatorship in that country.. Don't get hoddwinked by liberal chatterati's chatetr against military rule majority of pakistani love it or at least condone it. No military can survive in parliament without public goodwill....... Each and every political setups removal by military has been welcomed by rank and file on that side of the border be it Bhutto or Sharif