Has McGrath ever been dominated?

[Anakin]

I'll have to read through all these posts soon, but I was wondering when you compare BCL or MV, how do you equate the different situations and teams. MV being an opener has different sort of pressure than SRT coming to crease with two quick wkts (99 tour eg). Or how do you factor the composition of the team, when you know getting SRT out was almost guaranteed easy win, specially the 99 team again. I'm curious how you factorize these or if you're just gonna ignore them.

[Shehezaada]

There are some of us who say that McGrath could dominate Sachin, not because the stats say so but because McGrath knew how to clamp Tendulkar down in both the limited overs and test forms of the game and dismiss him, and that's something we've picked up watching both men over the majority of their careers. The fact is that McGrath knew how to bowl to Tendulkar when he was in attacking moods for the most part, knew what to bowl when he expected Tendulkar to come out playing shots hard to induce a dismissal, and knew how to bowl to him when Tendulkar was new at the wicket, grafting or tentative, to draw him into mistakes.

But is that dominance? No one is denying that McGrath is a master bowler, and could plan and execute with the best of them. But did his plans against Tendulkar succeed MOST of the time? Out of 100%, did his plans work against Tendulkar let's say 70% of the time?

[Shehezaada]

So based on your speculation, we just ignore a clear instance of McGrath removing Tendulkar comprehensively and without any of the doubt from an LBW? Because you "don't think this gameplan was in action, whatever"? This is the point Dhondy and I have made earlier. Don't try and pick and choose statistics and moments just to go along with your set-in-stone conclusion. Look at all the available evidence, all the numbers, matches, dismissals, etc, rather than dropping and choosing things at your whim and dropping other things that seem dubious only to you. Then see what it leads to.

I'm looking at the match situation. India is 30 runs away from victory when McGrath gets Tendulkar. In the larger picture, this dismissal is not worth much, in my opinion. If you want to use it, go right ahead.

[Shehezaada]

So based on your speculation, we just ignore a clear instance of McGrath removing Tendulkar comprehensively and without any of the doubt from an LBW? Because you "don't think this gameplan was in action, whatever"? This is the point Dhondy and I have made earlier. Don't try and pick and choose statistics and moments just to go along with your set-in-stone conclusion. Look at all the available evidence, all the numbers, matches, dismissals, etc, rather than dropping and choosing things at your whim and dropping other things that seem dubious only to you. Then see what it leads to.

it's not set in stone. Having a look at the stats and match situations, and as Dhondy pointed out, I earlier said it was 50-50 between them. Now I think it's 60-40.

[Dhondy]

I'll have to read through all these posts soon' date=' but I was wondering when you compare BCL or MV, how do you equate the different situations and teams. MV being an opener has different sort of pressure than SRT coming to crease with two quick wkts (99 tour eg). Or how do you factor the composition of the team, when you know getting SRT out was almost guaranteed easy win, specially the 99 team again. I'm curious how you factorize these or if you're just gonna ignore them.[/quote'] Ideally you compare an opener with an opener, middle order with middle order. However, comparisons between middle order and opener can also be conclusive. Against a fast bowler like McGrath, who gets 50% of his dismissals from numbers 1-4, facing the new cherry is a huge disadvantage. Yet, if despite this, Vaughan averages greater than Sachin or Lara with McGrath in the opposition, than his results are not due to the opener bias, but despite it, i.e, he would have been likely to average less against McGrath, being an opener and having to face the new ball, but since he actually averages higher than the middle order bats, that has to be in his favour. You may counter that by saying that on many occasions Sachin has had to face the nearly new ball after two quick wickets, adding in pressure that Vaughan didn't have to countenance, but that factor is balanced out by Vaughan's second innings knocks where he, as an opener, had to come in and bat against a formidable Aussie total more often than not. There is also the issue of a juicy pitch in the first couple of hours of the first morning's play, etc. Fair to say that most people would probably prefer to bat down the order against a pace bowler of McGrath's class rather than face him up front.

[Dhondy]

But is that dominance? No one is denying that McGrath is a master bowler' date=' and could plan and execute with the best of them. But did his plans against Tendulkar succeed MOST of the time? Out of 100%, did his plans work against Tendulkar let's say 70% of the time?[/quote'] I think you are ignoring the most important issue in this discussion, an issue that has been discussed several times on this thread already- the comparator, or if you like, the standard against which you are judging Sachin or McGrath. Eighty-eight runs with 6 dismissals off 17 innings might be construed as excellent if all of those innings were played on greentops. The decider therefore is, how did Sachin fare against other pace bowlers on those pitches, and how many runs other batsmen (Indian or otherwise) scored against McGrath before being dismissed. If you go through the thread, you will find that on both counts, McGrath dominates Sachin. It is fair to say therefore that relative to other batsmen, Sachin has been dominated by McGrath, and relative to other bowlers, McGrath has dominated Sachin.

[Dhondy]

So based on your speculation, we just ignore a clear instance of McGrath removing Tendulkar comprehensively and without any of the doubt from an LBW? Because you "don't think this gameplan was in action, whatever"? This is the point Dhondy and I have made earlier. Don't try and pick and choose statistics and moments just to go along with your set-in-stone conclusion. Look at all the available evidence, all the numbers, matches, dismissals, etc, rather than dropping and choosing things at your whim and dropping other things that seem dubious only to you. Then see what it leads to.

A concept that is used in the "intention-to-treat" analysis in Medicine. Science rears its head again.

[Mr. Wicket]

Or as Paul Simon and Art Garfunkel wrote in The Boxer... "Still a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest..."

[Gambit]

Great thread and posts from everyone. My take on this is that McGrath did have the better of Tendulkar over the length of their careers. 55-45 in McGrath's favour in my estimation. I think McGrath would rate the following as his best and most important Tendulkar dismissals - 1999 World Cup 2001 Mumbai Test 1st Innings. 2003 World Cup Final And Tendulkar would rate these knocks as his best against McGrath - 1996 World Cup(where he singlehandedly took 30 off McGrath 3 overs) 2000 Champions Trophy 2001 Mumbai Test 1st Innings Tendulkar never really wanted to attack McGrath in test cricket and this started with the continued failure of India's brittle batting lineup during the 1999 tour. The added pressure of him as his team's best batsman and captain forced him to adopt a very cautious approach against the metronome and this approach continued throughout his career.

[Tapioca]

I would also like to know where the ball-by-ball is.

Dont' know where you can find the summary, but the detailed ball-by-balls for the earlier scorecards (and not just "McGrath to Tendulkar : no run") can be found if you access them via http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/

[Shehezaada]

Great thread and posts from everyone. My take on this is that McGrath did have the better of Tendulkar over the length of their careers. 55-45 in McGrath's favour in my estimation. I think McGrath would rate the following as his best and most important Tendulkar dismissals - 1999 World Cup 2001 Mumbai Test 1st Innings. 2003 World Cup Final And Tendulkar would rate these knocks as his best against McGrath - 1996 World Cup(where he singlehandedly took 30 off McGrath 3 overs) 2000 Champions Trophy 2001 Mumbai Test 1st Innings Tendulkar never really wanted to attack McGrath in test cricket and this started with the continued failure of India's brittle batting lineup during the 1999 tour. The added pressure of him as his team's best batsman and captain forced him to adopt a very cautious approach against the metronome and this approach continued throughout his career.

this last para really takes the cake. Excellent post.

[Shehezaada]

Tendulkar really took McGrath apart in the ODI series that followed: Tendulkar hit him right out of the attack twice in 5 games, and gave him some severe treatment in other games. 59 balls faced, 90 runs made, 13 4's, 2 6's, S/R of 153, just one dismissal. You see, that's what a game plan is. After leaving McGrath well alone in the test matches, Tendulkar was ready to show McGrath who's boss. The only time McGrath was really allowed to celebrate in that series was when he got Tendulkar out - by which time he already made 139 runs off 125 deliveries.