Has McGrath ever been dominated?

[flamy]

Was there any bogey batsman for him? Like Sachin for Warne? Someone educate this johnny-come-lately.

[Mr. Wicket]

Michael Vaughan, arguably. Got dismantled by McGrath in his first test encounter at Brisbane in 02, then went on to have an absolutely mindblowing series with three hundreds in the next 4 games (of which Pidge played 3). Got dismissed by McGrath a couple more times, but seriously dominated the great man for the most part that series by getting back a long way in his crease and pulling McGrath's short-of-a-length stock deliveries off the front and back foot. Amazing strokeplay. Vaughan at that point in time was an absolutely phenomenal batsman to watch and worthy of some of the praise the Englishmen bestowed upon him (even the comparisons with certain great Indian players was warranted at times, given the style with which he dismantled the bowling that series). Once they made him captain they really clipped his wings and he never again played with that same freedom or bravado... that said, he did produce another excellent hundred v. McGrath in the Old Trafford test in 2005 (although as a knock it was nothing compared to the three tons he produced in Australia in 02/03... all absolutely mind-blowing knocks when you look at the way he was just pulling Gillespie and McGrath until they pitched up closer to him, then driving them straight and through the covers flawlessly.) That said, Pidge has still had plenty of moments of success v. Vaughan... removed him cheaply both times in the Briz test of 02 as mentioned, bowled him in epic fashion in the Lord's test in 05 during one of my very favourite spells, and also dismissed him (ct behind thanks to a stunning diving catch by Gilchrist, IIRC) in their final meeting. So it's never been one-way traffic between the two... that said, nobody has dominated McGrath more over the course of a single series than Michael Vaughan did in 02/03. Tendulkar did do well in all the series they came up against each other but never really dominated... Vaughan OTOH could hit McGrath out of the attack when he wanted to. Laxman to a lesser extent as well; produced two spectacular knocks (167 in 00 + the 281) v. McGrath, didn't do too well in the last series they played each other in but never really got troubled by McGrath then - it was Warne and Gillespie who kept getting him out.

[flamy]

Thanks! How about in his younger days?

[vvvslaxman]

Depends on what you mean by domination. He was never a cannon fodder all his life.Just like other bowlers you could hit him for odd boundaries. Vaughan had a freak series. But in the last Test where he made 100 Mcgrath did not play. Even Ijaz had a good series. I would go with Laxman. He was in absolute command. Tendulkar was good in 1999 series. But umpires did him in.

[Mr. Wicket]

Nope. Even in his younger days McGrath was a serious force... more pace than he had in the late 1990s to compensate for not yet having such amazing variations and machine-like control. He and McDermott led the attack soon after his debut and they were a very, very good combo. Plus in those days Warne was a holy terror... given that an attack comprised of McGrath, McDermott, Warne and one or two others (either a lesser backup seamer like Angel or a spinner like May), most batsmen didn't last long enough to really dominate any one of the bowlers. If McGrath was handled fine... Warne or McDermott would get em out. For an example of how bad this could get see the 94/95 Ashes... where in five tests McDermott and Warne shared 59 wkts between them. Both were lethal that series - England absolutely got the **** kicked out of them, between McDermott's pace and serious fire (strike rate of 43 that series) and the fact that NOBODY could read Warne, particularly when his flipper was really on song. Plus by the time McGrath had played ~20 tests he was already a serious force to contend with on the level of McDermott - by that point he'd had the breakout tour of WI where he turned from a solid seamer into a nasty strike bowler, and then just built on that rep i nthe following home season by dismantling the Paki and SL lineups.

[riya]

Mcgrath is a kind of bowler who took wickets early on or the ball is fresh .Once settled he is not that much a difficult bolwer to face .Say for example Lara has scored plenty of runs against him and double centuries as well.Laxman played him well once he got settled.

[Mr. Wicket]

Depends on what you mean by domination. He was never a cannon fodder all his life.Just like other bowlers you could hit him for odd boundaries. Vaughan had a freak series. But in the last Test where he made 100 Mcgrath did not play. Even Ijaz had a good series

Yes, but Vaughan smashed two other big hundreds in that series and McGrath was taken to the cleaners like everyone else in both those games. And let's not forget that additional ton at Manchester in 05. Hence why over time I'd probably name MPV as the man. His performances still top VVS' overall, particularly over the course of a single series. Re. Ijaz, his achievements v. Aus/McGrath don't come anywhere near VVS or MPV unless you're a deluded Pakistani. He had a few good knocks, but never really 'dominated' McGrath - his knocks were very much about grit and just grinding runs out with some big shots against Warne or weaker links in the attack like Reiffel or 'spinners' like Bevan and MEW. Anyone who's seen either of those Pak/Aus series from the 90s will never take Ijaz's batting v. McGrath to be 'domination'.

[Mr. Wicket]

Mcgrath is a kind of bowler who took wickets early on or the ball is fresh .Once settled he is not that much a difficult bolwer to face .Say for example Lara has scored plenty of runs against him and double centuries as well.Laxman played him well once he got settled.

You make it sound as if settling in is easy. McGrath's greatness comes partly from the fact that nobody could ever settle against him. Lara has scored some big runs v. McGrath, but got dominated like McGrath most of the time. Lara scored a couple of double-tons v. McGrath, I'll grant that. But McGrath dismissed him single figures 10 times in his test career. Most bowlers couldn't even dismiss Lara for single figures a couple of times. McGrath did it ten times. I'll hardly say then that Lara consistently dominated McGrath (and in answer to flamy's OP, he certainly wasn't a bogey batsman as that stat shows). Re. your fallacy about McGrath not being difficult to face with the older ball... I reckon most of the Indian middle order in 2004 who faced him in the home series may disagree. Cross-seam bowling, reverse swing, brilliant cut and pace variations still made him pretty damn tough to face. In the early days this was more true - but later on he picked up a LOT of new tricks after touring the subcontinent quite a bit and became a lot more dangerous with the old ball.

[Mr. Wicket]

Hey flamy... on that last point, see this. http://tinyurl.com/pqr4gm A list of Lara's dismissals between 0 and 10 in test cricket. Look at how many bowlers managed to achieve it. Look at how many did it consistency. McGrath tops the list w/ 10 instances - next are Donald and Gillespie with 3!

[riya]

You make it sound as if settling in is easy. McGrath's greatness comes partly from the fact that nobody could ever settle against him. Lara has scored some big runs v. McGrath, but got dominated like McGrath most of the time. Lara scored a couple of double-tons v. McGrath, I'll grant that. But McGrath dismissed him single figures 10 times in his test career. Most bowlers couldn't even dismiss Lara for single figures a couple of times. McGrath did it ten times. I'll hardly say then that Lara consistently dominated McGrath (and in answer to flamy's OP, he certainly wasn't a bogey batsman as that stat shows). Re. your fallacy about McGrath not being difficult to face with the older ball... I reckon most of the Indian middle order in 2004 who faced him in the home series may disagree. Cross-seam bowling, reverse swing, brilliant cut and pace variations still made him pretty damn tough to face. In the early days this was more true - but later on he picked up a LOT of new tricks after touring the subcontinent quite a bit and became a lot more dangerous with the old ball.

I never meant it was easy to settle against him .I have maintained once settled it is not that much of a difficulty .Yes Lara got out to Mcgrath many times at an average of 46 . If Mcgrath took his wicket for single digits many times,he has scored plenty against him as well.Yes he treated him as an ordinary bowler,i saw that too.And Mcgrath made him look like ordinary bat as well many times usually with the new ball,not just Lara every one Atherton,Sachin almost all top order .Nothing to take away from him .But to answer ''ever dominated ''.yes .

[graphic23]

On the same note Salil, here's a list of the batsman who average the most against him: Link Rutherford, who averages the most against McGrath, has only played 2 test matches against him, and averages 86.00. Laxman, who's played a significant # of tests - 10, averages a whopping 82 against him - with 5 dismissals. Vaughan, though he might have dominated him in 02/03 Ashes, averages only 21.00 against McGrath.

[Mr. Wicket]

That's because the statistic is flawed. It takes into account only the average score when dismissed by that bowler. For a better example find the batting average for all games including that bowler. IE: if VVS had been caught off Warne or Gillespie's bowling after his 281, he'd have a MUCH lower average as per that stat. OTOH, if Vaughan had been dismissed by McGrath at the end of either of those big hundreds, he'd have had a much bigger average in that.

[graphic23]

That's because the statistic is flawed. It takes into account only the average score when dismissed by that bowler. For a better example find the batting average for all games including that bowler. IE: if VVS had been caught off Warne or Gillespie's bowling after his 281, he'd have a MUCH lower average as per that stat. OTOH, if Vaughan had been dismissed by McGrath at the end of either of those big hundreds, he'd have had a much bigger average in that.

Fair enough. :P If we consider the stats for the averages of the players with McGrath in the team, Lara - 42.59 Laxman - 44.59 Vaughan - 49.50 Agarkar - 8.66

[Mr. Wicket]

Wow. Big drop for Lara, but not surprising given what I pointed out earlier re. the fallacy of comparing him to others who've not been dominated by McGrath as much. Another big, more shocking drop: Tendulkar averages 36.77 against Australia when McGrath plays. Just shows what a big difference maker Pidge is (and how impressive Vaughan's feat that series was!)

[fineleg]

Wow. Big drop for Lara, but not surprising given what I pointed out earlier re. the fallacy of comparing him to others who've not been dominated by McGrath as much. Another big, more shocking drop: Tendulkar averages 36.77 against Australia when McGrath plays. Just shows what a big difference maker Pidge is (and how impressive Vaughan's feat that series was!)

Umpires played their part too for screwing SRT, right? So, cannot say it was all McG who did that to SRT?

[flamy]

Daaaaaaaaaaaamn! I never knew Vaughn was that good. I was sorta thinking abt Lara when I made the post, but all doubts have been cleared :D Any leeway in ODIs at least?

[vvvslaxman]

On the same note Salil' date=' here's a list of the batsman who average the most against him: Link Rutherford, who averages the most against McGrath, has only played 2 test matches against him, and averages 86.00. Laxman, who's played a significant # of tests - 10, averages a whopping 82 against him - with 5 dismissals. Vaughan, though he might have dominated him in 02/03 Ashes, averages only 21.00 against McGrath.

That is a flawed stat. Because they count only the innings where he dismissed a specific batsman. They wil leave out the inning where they didn't play him. If you look at Sehwag vs Akhtar it might not be flattering on cricinfo. But Sehwag utterly dominated Akhtar.

[vvvslaxman]

Daaaaaaaaaaaamn! I never knew Vaughn was that good. I was sorta thinking abt Lara when I made the post, but all doubts have been cleared :D Any leeway in ODIs at least?

Vaughan and Laxman style of play is suitable against Mcgrath. Tall and upright stroke makers. Laxman's weakness lies else where. Straight yorkers. That is why he scored over 2000 runs against Australia at an avge over 50 in their peak yet he averages only 44. Could have included KP. But he has never seen peak of pigeon. But KP consistently chipped down the track for Mcgrath.

[graphic23]

That is a flawed stat. Because they count only the innings where he dismissed a specific batsman. They wil leave out the inning where they didn't play him. If you look at Sehwag vs Akhtar it might not be flattering on cricinfo. But Sehwag utterly dominated Akhtar.

That's because the statistic is flawed. It takes into account only the average score when dismissed by that bowler. For a better example find the batting average for all games including that bowler. IE: if VVS had been caught off Warne or Gillespie's bowling after his 281, he'd have a MUCH lower average as per that stat. OTOH, if Vaughan had been dismissed by McGrath at the end of either of those big hundreds, he'd have had a much bigger average in that.

Fair enough. :P If we consider the stats for the averages of the players with McGrath in the team, Lara - 42.59 Laxman - 44.59 Vaughan - 49.50 Agarkar - 8.66

I already fixed for that :P

[vvvslaxman]

Why did you calculate for Agarkar :haha: