Ram Posted May 26, 2009 Posted May 26, 2009 We have been through this before MM. Why don't you so something about torture that happens in Police cells all over India ? You will have my support and of others as well ' date=' because police brutality is a genuine problem in India. Here, three al-queeda members including 9-11 mastermind khalid Sheikh got tortured. No point in extending geneva conventions to these thugs.[/quote'] I am perplexed, whats police torture got anything to do with what we're discussing here? You open a thread on the massive abuse that goes on in Indian jails and I promise to let you know my views on that.
Ram Posted May 26, 2009 Posted May 26, 2009 I have to say I concur with KR. My understanding, initially anyway, was that waterboarding was done on all and sundry. But the moment I heard it was only 3 it became a much ado about nothing as far as I am concerned. And yes it is against human dignity and what US stands for. But I could also tell you of 10 different things that are against human dignity and what USA stands for...and all I would have to do is rake in 1 topic, Immigration. If they can do it on 3 people today, what is going to prevent them from doing it on 3000 people 3 years from now? This is just the beginning Lurks.
kumble_rocks Posted May 26, 2009 Posted May 26, 2009 I don't understand this logic at all - what has police brutality in India have to do with the topic under discussion here? It's not that I or MM or anyone is spending valuable time and resources fighting the torture by US forces and doing nothing about the human rights violations by Indian forces. We are just typing a few words condemning torture by the US and would do so and have done so about brutality by Indian police as well. If I was donating 100,000 to an organization fighting torture by the US and giving only 5,000 to an organization in India, you would have a point. I don't understand all the fuss as well ? After all , three members of al-queeda including Khalid Sheikh have been tortured so far. So why fuss over it , it's not as if thousands of civilians have been tortured which by the way happens to be the case with most developing and third world countries . And they all seem to have a problem with this US policy of torture in Gitmo. Don't you find that ironic ? Tell me one good reason why I should care if Khaleed Shiekh gets water boarded or not ? You will have my support if it is civilians get tortured. I won't waste my sympathy for dreaded terrorists who get water boarded. If Geneva conventions does not get extended to them , so be it .
kumble_rocks Posted May 26, 2009 Posted May 26, 2009 Police brutality in India is bad and of course something needs to be done regards that. But that doesnt justify this act anyways. First of all torture is ineffective' date=' second of all it is morally wrong, and third of all whoever does that loses the moral high ground and there is no difference between the two sections.[/quote'] US already lost all moral grounds when they indulged in fake Iraq war. They have no leg to stand when it comes to morality anyways. We are talking about al-qeeda terrorists who got tortured . If it were civilians that were the subjects of torture , you would have my support . I, by no means would approve of torture for civilians or even military men captured in battlefield. Terrorists don't follow any guidelines followed by Geneva conventions. So , in point in extending them that courtesy .And as regards to it's effectiveness , that's a whole new discussion which I don't want to get into right now.
The Outsider Posted May 26, 2009 Posted May 26, 2009 ^ How do you know only 3 have been tortured so far or that the number will stay the same? After all the official line till a while back was that no one has been tortured.
triam Posted May 26, 2009 Posted May 26, 2009 US already lost all moral grounds when they indulged in fake Iraq war. They have no leg to stand when it comes to morality anyways. We are talking about al-qeeda terrorists who got tortured . If it were civilians that were the subjects of torture ' date=' you would have my support . I, by no means would approve of torture for civilians or even military men captured in battlefield. Terrorists don't follow any guidelines followed by Geneva conventions. So , in point in extending them that courtesy .And as regards to it's effectiveness , that's a whole new discussion which I don't want to get into right now.[/quote'] Yes the Iraq war was shameful and people rightly call it shameful, I am glad you call it the same. In the same way, torturing is shameful be it terrorists or civilians, thats all we are asking for, to call it shameful. Effectiveness of torture I had posted some links earlier, as it stands now, it has 0 chance of effctiveness
kumble_rocks Posted May 26, 2009 Posted May 26, 2009 ^ How do you know only 3 have been tortured so far or that the number will stay the same? After all the official line till a while back was that no one has been tortured. Obama administration has never negated this number. The official line till while back (previous administration) was that they did not consider water boarding torture. They never denied that they used enhanced interrogation techniques against Khalid Shiekh and other two high level al -qeeda operatives. Three or thirty is a moot point as far as I am concerned when it comes to al-qeeda. But , having said that , I feel that Bush administration lost the plot when it comes to Gitmo. They should had set up military tribunals so that inmates had their due process. at the very least. After that , I could care less if known dreaded terrorists like Khaleed Shiekh gets tortured. After all , US tortures dreaded terrorists not civilians like India , China , Islamic countries etc ....
THX_1138 Posted May 26, 2009 Posted May 26, 2009 Listen kiddo ,you represent the same filth that far left hate mongers like Keith Dobbermann from MSNBC represent . I have neither the time , nor the patience and the inclination to indulge in a debate with twenty something kids like yourself who will routinely indulge in ma- behen galli galouch at the slightest pretext. And doesn't the irony escape you . You should be the last person talking about principles. Most posters here like MM ,Lurker, Cricaddict etc are decent folks who will never indulge in abuse-fest and who will never indulge in personal attack even if the posts contradict their thought process . The same cannot be said about you. You are not averse to bringing family members when you indulge in your infamous abuse-fest. You have been banned upteen number of times for that. And till the day you pick up arms and stand guard, you will never understand . Easy for you sit in your ivory tower and pass judgment about others.Easy to talk about principles when you are stoned immaculately in college campuses. And yes , you come from country of origin that does torture even petty criminals . So , may I suggest you do something about that instead of shedding crocodile tears for 9-11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh.And one more thing , till the day your nuts along with your head get's beheaded by some freak show , you probably won't understand the futility of extending geneva conventions to animals.... And for the record I would never endorse torture for civilians. So , Al-queeda and other terrorists are the only exception. And I am as liberal was one can be without attaching myself to any party . So don't you dare club me with DR and other idealogues from both sides . I dislike their ideology both left and right.. oh i was waiting for a bird brain idiot such as you to say that... August 1999 - June 2001 USMC. Disliked every moment of it for it was nothing but a jock fest where the importance of human life was reduced along sundry lines such as 'enemy' or 'core'... and my trivial contribution does not give me any more free reign than that extended to an ordinary citizen who is critical of his country's policies...
triam Posted May 26, 2009 Posted May 26, 2009 oh i was waiting for a bird brain idiot such as you to say that... August 1999 - June 2001 USMC. Disliked every moment of it for it was nothing but a jock fest where the importance of human life was reduced along sundry lines such as 'enemy' or 'core'... and my trivial contribution does not give me any more free reign than that extended to an ordinary citizen who is critical of his country's policies... USMC, semper fidelis. I kid, although I work for the defense.
fineleg Posted May 26, 2009 Posted May 26, 2009 kumble rocks - Excellent post @ #16. You hit the nail on its head. There should be no 'geneva convention' for even the kasabs of 26/11 and their ilk too.
THX_1138 Posted May 27, 2009 Posted May 27, 2009 USMC' date=' semper fidelis. I kid, although I work for the defense.[/quote'] Army Core of Engineers? DOD? or DARPA? my first college gig was thanks to DARPA... 800 pop a month and free tuition for high speed downloads (back in the day when napster was king)! or are you an undercover agent? if so, i will totally not snitch.
triam Posted May 27, 2009 Posted May 27, 2009 Army Core of Engineers? DOD? or DARPA? my first college gig was thanks to DARPA... 800 pop a month and free tuition for high speed downloads (back in the day when napster was king)! or are you an undercover agent? if so, i will totally not snitch. DOD
Macj Posted May 28, 2009 Posted May 28, 2009 Say whatever - but as one who flew every week for 3 years , I felt safe because the Bush administration was doing stuff that prevented attacks. That is his record, dismal abroad but no more attacks at home. Many attacks were foiled and what did he get for that abuse and more abuse from flaming Liberals about this and that. Obama is loosening that security apparatus for God knows what reason. At the end of the day I dont really care if prisoners in Guantanamo get a trial or not, I just dont want them on my street.
Macj Posted May 28, 2009 Posted May 28, 2009 US already lost all moral grounds when they indulged in fake Iraq war. They have no leg to stand when it comes to morality anyways. We are talking about al-qeeda terrorists who got tortured . If it were civilians that were the subjects of torture ' date=' you would have my support . I, by no means would approve of torture for civilians or even military men captured in battlefield. Terrorists don't follow any guidelines followed by Geneva conventions. So , in point in extending them that courtesy .And as regards to it's effectiveness , that's a whole new discussion which I don't want to get into right now.[/quote'] The pedantic Pete in me begs to say that similar to the above US involvement in WW1 was also deemed 'fake'. But now time has told us that Wilson's timely involvement saved the world from who knows what. But thats another story for another time.
Lurker Posted May 28, 2009 Posted May 28, 2009 Say whatever - but as one who flew every week for 3 years ' date= I felt safe because the Bush administration was doing stuff that prevented attacks. That is his record, dismal abroad but no more attacks at home. I have been in the same boat and I felt completely different to what you felt! Basically Bush Administration took away all the liberties. And so while earlier I was always seen-off at the Airport Gate(in true Indian style I may add), now my friends/family had to stop wayyyyyy back before the Security check. Often when the flights got cancelled I would simply stay put in the lounge while earlier I would have friends who would hang around. Then there was the dreaded Security check. All the colognes went out the window, every time I travelled I would have to buy a water bottle after I had done my Security checks. Have seen too many travellers, including myself, lose water bottle/toothpaste/facewash/cologne/shampoo etc etc at the Security counter because it was a bigger "size". Then of course was the whole body search thing. I remember the first time I encountered it at LAX where I probably resembled a man who has just been raped. Shirt hanging out. Trousers touching the floor, no shoes yada yada. God save the perky girl who lifted me up with a wink and a "I hope it was as much fun for you as it was me"! And lastly who can ever forget the see-through X-ray machine at my domestic Sky Habor Airport in Phoenix. Yes you can see everything, and yes it stores the data some place else too. And yes I felt like that all the time. Safe and secure??? I think paranoid is the better word. xxx
Ram Posted May 28, 2009 Posted May 28, 2009 Say whatever - but as one who flew every week for 3 years , I felt safe because the Bush administration was doing stuff that prevented attacks. That is his record, dismal abroad but no more attacks at home. How do you know that? How can you be sure that it was Bush’s invasion of Afghanistan and his illegal war in Iraq is the reason why terrorists did not manage to attack America further? Sure, it could be one of the reasons, but there are a whole host of other security measures that America undertook in their homeland to protect its citizens that would have helped prevent further attacks on American soil like the 9/11 ones. Bottom line – You don’t have to wage a phony war based on fabricated intelligence to protect your citizens.
Macj Posted May 28, 2009 Posted May 28, 2009 I have been in the same boat and I felt completely different to what you felt! Basically Bush Administration took away all the liberties. And so while earlier I was always seen-off at the Airport Gate(in true Indian style I may add), now my friends/family had to stop wayyyyyy back before the Security check. Often when the flights got cancelled I would simply stay put in the lounge while earlier I would have friends who would hang around. Then there was the dreaded Security check. All the colognes went out the window, every time I travelled I would have to buy a water bottle after I had done my Security checks. Have seen too many travellers, including myself, lose water bottle/toothpaste/facewash/cologne/shampoo etc etc at the Security counter because it was a bigger "size". Yes I flew everyweek , left on Monday and was back on Thursday evening. American Airlines Exec Platinum. In all fairness the only reason they instituted such stringent checking ( which is lax if you actually see what they do , mostly because its by rote day in and day out) is because of the Shoe Bombers of the world or the terrorists who decided to pass off picric acid through security trying to get it on board or those in London who wanted to pass poison through baby food and cause havoc. So what do you expect, every action has a reaction, mostly because those Islamic terrorists saw and threatened to exploit a weakness however silly it may be.
Lurker Posted May 28, 2009 Posted May 28, 2009 So what do you expect, every action has a reaction, mostly because those Islamic terrorists saw and threatened to exploit a weakness however silly it may be. And what was the reaction? To screw your own citizen. Here is what their own team members had to say Saying that "nobody needs to see my wife and kids naked to secure an airplane," Rep. Jason Chaffetz, R-Utah, on Wednesday introduced a bill to ban whole-body imaging at airports. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705298970/Chaffetz-wants-ban-on-body-scans.html
Macj Posted May 28, 2009 Posted May 28, 2009 And what was the reaction? To screw your own citizen. Here is what their own team members had to say Saying that "nobody needs to see my wife and kids naked to secure an airplane," Rep. Jason Chaffetz, R-Utah, on Wednesday introduced a bill to ban whole-body imaging at airports. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705298970/Chaffetz-wants-ban-on-body-scans.html Thats making a mountain out of a molehill, sure there were cases like that but the majority of checks were very moderate.
THX_1138 Posted May 28, 2009 Posted May 28, 2009 Say whatever - but as one who flew every week for 3 years , I felt safe because the Bush administration was doing stuff that prevented attacks. That is his record, dismal abroad but no more attacks at home. Many attacks were foiled and what did he get for that abuse and more abuse from flaming Liberals about this and that. Obama is loosening that security apparatus for God knows what reason. At the end of the day I dont really care if prisoners in Guantanamo get a trial or not, I just dont want them on my street. identify one. (and i do hope you say the shoe bomber because then i would rip you a new proverbial hole)
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