Dhoni urges team mates not to hide injuries

[Shehezaada]

Cause its getting tiring dude. I mean, 2 years ago, after we were kicked out of the WC in West Indies by Bangladesh, no one would have even remotely dreamed of us winning the Triangular Series in Australia. No one would've imagined us winning the ODI series in Sri Lanka without Sehwag/Sachin, given how our senior batsmen were completely flummoxed by the spinners. Winning has become an expectation rather than a bonus now, and I sincerely think that Dhoni is a huge factor in that. For a guy who came out blasting every bowler, he was supposed to be a flat track bully, one who did not have technique to do well in Australia. He fought hard during the test series, and was easily the most consistent batsman in the team. He's reinvented his batting when he was in the danger of being found out by bowlers, and perhaps has sacrificed too much of his raw power. Nevertheless, right now I think his captaincy is in a similar situation, and based on past record, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, and I think he'll do well as a captain for India. Recognizing that he has taken bad decisions, and his form has been bad is not incorrect but harping on the same issues a year after what he's done is stupid. That too at a time when the team morale is down because they were unable to compete well in the tournament that they were the defending champions of. I'd rather support the team right now rather than keep harping on how many mistakes he's made in the last 20 months. Again, pointing out the mistakes isn't bad but repeated bashing of his character, his greed for money, and questioning his commitment to cricket is terrible. Anyways, I'm done on this topic.

man it's not harping on. The discussion was brought up, we put forth our views on it. If you can't criticize someone then what's the point of discussion? It's not like we go to bed every night cursing Dhoni for not touring lanka!

[Dhondy]

How much does a MR scan cost these days? Sehwag's shoulder pain was public knowledge early during the IPL. Why was he allowed to come to England without a precautionery scan? The richest board in the world they may be, but they are an ill advised, penny pinching bunch. Any sports physician worth his salt could have advised these guys. Two months lost. The difference between Sehwag/no Sehwag for the SL series. The difference between victory & defeat.

[graphic23]

man it's not harping on. The discussion was brought up' date=' we put forth our views on it. If you can't criticize someone then what's the point of discussion? It's not like we go to bed every night cursing Dhoni for not touring lanka![/quote'] Nope, I repeatedly said criticizing him is perfectly fine because in our eyes, his judgment was wrong. But then its been 1 year dude, and it is my opinion that it was a required and well deserved rest - and so calling out on his commitment and then stating that he should've been taken IPL as rest is ignorance. It is an illogical claim. And if you're talking about his actions a year later and still finding fault with him, I believe thats whats called 'harping on'.

[Shehezaada]

Nope, I repeatedly said criticizing him is perfectly fine because in our eyes, his judgment was wrong. But then its been 1 year dude, and it is my opinion that it was a required and well deserved rest - and so calling out on his commitment and then stating that he should've been taken IPL as rest is ignorance. It is an illogical claim. And if you're talking about his actions a year later and still finding fault with him, I believe thats whats called 'harping on'.

I never called him out on his commitment. Any cricketer who goes to play for India for 15 months straight can't have his commitment questioned. I questioned his wisdom of when to take a break, that's all. How is what I say ignorant and illogical and what you say is "your opinion"??. Gimme a break. I think that Dhoni should have given more importance to an international, test tour, rather then the IPL. Explain how that's illogical. And secondly...I don't think your getting the point about harping on. Let me give you an example. Let's say there's a thread called...Tendulkar's best knocks. One poster mentions his 136 against Chennai when he was fighting the back pains. Another poster then says "Great knock....shouldn't have played that shot though, so close to victory". And then this sparks a debate on whether or not to have played that shot. That test match was 11 years ago...does it still mean we're "harping on" about it? No! It means that we're having a discussion.

[graphic23]

I think your going way over the top. Let's go through your post para by para. Dhoni is his own man and everyone knows Test Cricket is the ultimate. Add to the fact that SRL is just as tough as AUS in AUS and SAF in SAF, and winning it is one more step to being the best team in the world, then it makes it 10 TIMES more important. IPL needed to make a good impression? Well there was a bunch of other world beaters in the IPL, big deal if Dhoni doesn't play. CSK management paid him 1.5 mil and won't let him rest? Well don't pay him if he doesn't play!

What if Dhoni doesn't think “test cricket is the ultimateâ€. That is an incorrect assumption you are making when you say “everyone knows.†What if he feels he has a bigger contribution to make in the LOI format than the test format (I don't think this is true but since you're coming up with assumptions, I can come up with a “what if†too). And I can't explain why he couldn't skip IPL any better than I already have. There was no way in hell BCCI or CSK or Dhoni himself would've let him take any rest. It was a breakthrough event for cricket, and most cricketers wanted to be a part of it. Let alone the fact that it was his employer who came up with the idea. I made an analogy yesterday for this: http://indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=726983&postcount=74 . I cannot explain it any better than this.

I'm not hanging on to his back and stabbing him. I supported fineleg when she said that he should have skipped the IPL (which is domestic) instead of skipping a test tour (which is International). He did it, fine...I don't curse his a*s everynight...he's a smart guy and I'm sure he won't do it again. I do follow cricket and I know he had been on the road, but that's the point...you should look at the schedule and see when you can take a break if you know your body can't handle that much cricket.

And I will say this again. The Sri Lankan test tour was the earliest he could have taken his break. Given that he was the ODI captain, he perhaps thought he could not take a break from the Kitply and Asia cups. In the tests, there were replacements, Karthik and Parthiv. It is not his call nor his responsibility to see whether they are good or not. What he was concerned about was that he was not going to give his best when he went there. It is better to take a rest here. I've given my opinion/proof as to why he could not take a break earlier. I stand by my points.

And you miss the point again....I'm not asking him to play in IPL, get more tired, then go to SRL to keep. I'm asking him to skip IPL, which happens every goddamn year, and tour Sri Lanka, which happens ever 5 years. And it didn't matter that much? Are you deluded? Did you not see the chances that those two idiots dropped? We could have won that 3rd test match, even the series with Dhoni's keeping. As a person who calls Dhoni India's MVP, you sure showed your faith in him with that statement.

If you bothered to read my statement, you wouldn't call me deluded. I said that it would not have mattered had Dhoni gone there with his back injured and kept like **** because as it turned out, the replacements were crappy anyway. And I still consider him a MVP.

The reason I bring up Tendulkar is because he's one of the guys who always says that Test Cricket is the priority. And he's right.

Tendulkar is his own man. Just because Sachin can play the ramp shot and cover drive better than every other man who plays this sport doesn't mean all the other cover drives are worthless, does it?

It has nothing to do with comparing them physically.

It has everything to do with comparing them physically. When Tendulkar was suffering from the groin injury early March last year, he asked to be rested against the South Africans, didn't he? And he's a batsman alone in the team now. Dhoni has to keep, bat, and captain. Keeping itself puts an enormous amount of stress on his back, which is why I mentioned how long he had been on the road. It aggregates over a period of time, and he needed that rest as he is the most physically affected player on the team. His contribution with the bat is needed for India, his contribution as captain is important, and his contribution as a wicket keeper is even more important. So, given that his body works more than any other one in the entire team, and how he had played every single game for the past year and a few months, his rest was 100 percent justified.

And again, I'm not accusing Dhoni of playing in the IPL for money...I even said he was rich already in an earlier post. Dhoni is the most level headed guy that's played for India so I really don't think money has anything to do with his decision. I honestly don't know why he didn't tour Lanka. All I know is that he should have. My expectation of cricketers is to go out and play with 100% for INDIA. Not for the Chennai Super Kings. If he wants to put CSK as priority before India, that's fine, I'll criticize him, but still appreciate his performances for India. Your mistaking me for being a Dhoni hater here when I'm not.

I'm glad to know that you're not with fineleg with regards to his alleged greediness. Ideally, yeah, he should've been able to tour Sri Lanka. But obviously he felt he was not prepared to tour for the 3 test matches. Whether you can extrapolate his enormous success against Sri Lanka into the test arena and say that he would've made a significant difference is your call. I am not skilled enough to do that. And he's met your expectation. He does give his 100% to India, and I haven't seen him put in a mediocre effort ever. He has batted plenty of times with a runner, and still turned up to keep and bat the very next match.

I'm far from perfect, trust me. And I do give plenty of lee way to cricketers....being a cricketer myself I know how hard it is to constantly be travelling and playing (obviously what they go through is 100x of what we go through here)...you'll always see me supporting cricketers and not bashing them unnecessarily. And yes, his judgement was off, I'm glad you accept it. I agree with you. I'm just saying what he did was wrong, not bashing him and abusing him. Don't people do that when they think a batsmen played a bad stroke? EXACTLY. Use the time you have to play MORE for India. We need Dhoni more then Chennai does.

Thats his call. Whether it is playing for Chennai or for India, he wants to give his best, and afaik, he has given his best. Whether his captaincy decisions have been bad or not, we can tell because in hind sight, they were ones that should not have been made. Furthermore, wicket keeping in Sri Lanka requires an additional effort because the spinners will be operating for the majority of the time, and that means your reflexes and your agility have to extremely good. When he feels that he's not upto that level physically, who am I to say that you should be playing for India, and not resting?

[graphic23]

I never called him out on his commitment. Any cricketer who goes to play for India for 15 months straight can't have his commitment questioned. I questioned his wisdom of when to take a break, that's all. How is what I say ignorant and illogical and what you say is "your opinion"??. Gimme a break. I think that Dhoni should have given more importance to an international, test tour, rather then the IPL. Explain how that's illogical.

I don't think you understand why he could not have skipped the IPL. I've tried to explain this in another thread to which I've linked my previous post to. If it does not convince you, then I can't help. It does not make a difference whether the Sri Lanka tour was an international one or a gully cricket one because its his call as to whether he can give his best. If doesn't think so, then its better that he rest.

And secondly...I don't think your getting the point about harping on. Let me give you an example. Let's say there's a thread called...Tendulkar's best knocks. One poster mentions his 136 against Chennai when he was fighting the back pains. Another poster then says "Great knock....shouldn't have played that shot though, so close to victory". And then this sparks a debate on whether or not to have played that shot. That test match was 11 years ago...does it still mean we're "harping on" about it? No! It means that we're having a discussion.

Ok. That analogy is wrong because only *******s will question Sachin's shots at that time. Secondly, this is not related to that issue at all. Harping is whats being done because everytime a discussion on Dhoni is brought up (between July 2008 and June 2009), there have been posts that talk about his skipping of the SL tour. Perhaps I've noticed it more than others.

[Shehezaada]

I don't think you understand why he could not have skipped the IPL. I've tried to explain this in another thread to which I've linked my previous post to. If it does not convince you, then I can't help. It does not make a difference whether the Sri Lanka tour was an international one or a gully cricket one because its his call as to whether he can give his best. If doesn't think so, then its better that he rest. Ok. That analogy is wrong because only *******s will question Sachin's shots at that time. Secondly, this is not related to that issue at all. Harping is whats being done because everytime a discussion on Dhoni is brought up (between July 2008 and June 2009), there have been posts that talk about his skipping of the SL tour. Perhaps I've noticed it more than others.

I got the same problem with your example as I got with Dhoni skipping out. What's the most important thing? I am sure the BCCI, as ridiculous as they are, would listen to Dhoni, ODI captain and man of the future, if he said that he would rather play the test series against SRL then IPL. Second, your boss will not "ask" you to do something, he'll just tell you to do it. If it was a work type situation and projects are compared to tours, your boss would tell you to do both projects, THEN take your break. If you asked for rest in any one of them, you would get canned. About Harping, I can only tell you that this is the 2nd time I've criticized Dhoni about this, the first time I did it was when it happened.

[graphic23]

I got the same problem with your example as I got with Dhoni skipping out. What's the most important thing? I am sure the BCCI, as ridiculous as they are, would listen to Dhoni, ODI captain and man of the future, if he said that he would rather play the test series against SRL then IPL. Second, your boss will not "ask" you to do something, he'll just tell you to do it. If it was a work type situation and projects are compared to tours, your boss would tell you to do both projects, THEN take your break. If you asked for rest in any one of them, you would get canned.

Nope, one was clearly more important to BCCI than the other. Whether it is the same for the player in question or not, that is unknown to me. The whole point of the IPL would've been defeated if India's best T20 XI (the one that won the WC) did not participate in it. And that includes Dhoni. There was no way he could've opted out from what is revolutionary in Cricket – and I'll repeat this once more, it was one that organized by his home board. I don't quite understand why you don't see it but I don't think it would've gone well with Modi or the BCCI had Dhoni asked them about it. I don't think he did either, because it would've been futile, and perhaps, he wanted to be a part of the inaugural IPL. There is no way that his wish to participate in IPL can be translated to “he likes IPL more than test cricket.” Fineleg seems to do it because it has a higher knowledge than the rest of the world and human beings. I certainly don't and am not going to pretend to claim what his preference is either.

About Harping, I can only tell you that this is the 2nd time I've criticized Dhoni about this, the first time I did it was when it happened.

Ok. I must admit my comments were not geared completely toward you.

[Shehezaada]

What if Dhoni doesn't think “test cricket is the ultimateâ€. That is an incorrect assumption you are making when you say “everyone knows.†What if he feels he has a bigger contribution to make in the LOI format than the test format (I don't think this is true but since you're coming up with assumptions' date=' I can come up with a “what if†too). And I can't explain why he couldn't skip IPL any better than I already have. There was no way in hell BCCI or CSK or Dhoni himself would've let him take any rest. It was a breakthrough event for cricket, and most cricketers wanted to be a part of it. Let alone the fact that it was his employer who came up with the idea. I made an analogy yesterday for this: [url']http://indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=726983&postcount=74 . I cannot explain it any better than this.

This arguement is going nowhere...if you can go "what if" so can I..great. So can't I just said "What IF" Dhoni walked into a meeting with the BCCI and said guys...i'm tired, I need rest. I'd rather play for India...can you rest me for the IPL, or say I have an injury that needs time to heal? Second your example is flawed because the employer would ask you to do both things, tour SRL AND IPL, and if you didn't, you would get canned. Call it "overtime".

And I will say this again. The Sri Lankan test tour was the earliest he could have taken his break. Given that he was the ODI captain, he perhaps thought he could not take a break from the Kitply and Asia cups. In the tests, there were replacements, Karthik and Parthiv. It is not his call nor his responsibility to see whether they are good or not. What he was concerned about was that he was not going to give his best when he went there. It is better to take a rest here. I've given my opinion/proof as to why he could not take a break earlier. I stand by my points.

This is ridiculous. Not his call to see whether karthik and parthiv are good enough??? Have you EVER played any team sports? It's every single person on the team's RESPONSIBILITY to see what the team's best interest is. Especially if your the future captain! If your worried about not giving your best when it matters most, SKIP the IPL. Let me ask you a question. What if the tour in question was Australia in Australia? Would you still be OK with Dhoni taking a break? And the fact that he's the ODI captain really doesn't matter too much. He could have taken a breather during the Kitply cup easily. Ponting just recently took a break, Ganguly took a break after the WC, Tendulkar rested himself a couple of times when he was captain. It's about getting the priorities straight. Ask anyone on this board what the priority is, Test or T20. They'll tell you.

Tendulkar is his own man. Just because Sachin can play the ramp shot and cover drive better than every other man who plays this sport doesn't mean all the other cover drives are worthless, does it? It has everything to do with comparing them physically. When Tendulkar was suffering from the groin injury early March last year, he asked to be rested against the South Africans, didn't he? And he's a batsman alone in the team now. Dhoni has to keep, bat, and captain. Keeping itself puts an enormous amount of stress on his back, which is why I mentioned how long he had been on the road. It aggregates over a period of time, and he needed that rest as he is the most physically affected player on the team. His contribution with the bat is needed for India, his contribution as captain is important, and his contribution as a wicket keeper is even more important. So, given that his body works more than any other one in the entire team, and how he had played every single game for the past year and a few months, his rest was 100 percent justified.

Tendulkar was injured and couldn't play. Adding to that the next test was barely 4 days away. Dhoni could have rested for a good 1.5 months during the IPL and then been fresh for the SRL series. See, I have no problem with him taking a rest...i just know that we needed him badly for that test series.

[Shehezaada]

Nope, one was clearly more important to BCCI than the other. Whether it is the same for the player in question or not, that is unknown to me. The whole point of the IPL would've been defeated if India's best T20 XI (the one that won the WC) did not participate in it. And that includes Dhoni. There was no way he could've opted out from what is revolutionary in Cricket – and I'll repeat this once more, it was one that organized by his home board. I don't quite understand why you don't see it but I don't think it would've gone well with Modi or the BCCI had Dhoni asked them about it. I don't think he did either, because it would've been futile, and perhaps, he wanted to be a part of the inaugural IPL. There is no way that his wish to participate in IPL can be translated to “he likes IPL more than test cricket.†Fineleg seems to do it because it has a higher knowledge than the rest of the world and human beings. I certainly don't and am not going to pretend to claim what his preference is either. Ok. I must admit my comments were not geared completely toward you.

Aight man, you see it one way, I see it a different way. I think that everything is worth a try in life...maybe the BCCI wouldn't have listened. Maybe they would have. Again..I'm not questioning Dhoni's attitude or his commitment. Just questioning his judgement at a particular time. And if the BCCI did infact "Force" him to play the IPL, then I agree with all your points, including the one where you say he opted out because he couldn't perform 100%.

[fineleg]

Who are we kidding here? Fact is dhoni was suffering from fatigue+injury at that time, now are we saying if BCCI did *not* force him, he would have opted out? The only reason for his participation was force from BCCI ? Puh-leeez, puh-leez. Once he took part in the IPL, SRL Test series was ruled out since he cannot keep on continuing with injury/fatigue. The question is was he forced to choose IPL and was that (BCCI force) the only or even primary reason? The answer why he primarily chose what he chose, is obvious, maybe not to those who wear blinkers. (And choose he did, he knew he could not go onto another Test series after that long IPL days got over, so he did choose one over the other)

[graphic23]

Aight man, you see it one way, I see it a different way. I think that everything is worth a try in life...maybe the BCCI wouldn't have listened. Maybe they would have. Again..I'm not questioning Dhoni's attitude or his commitment. Just questioning his judgement at a particular time. And if the BCCI did infact "Force" him to play the IPL, then I agree with all your points, including the one where you say he opted out because he couldn't perform 100%.

Yeah. Like I said, I don't know either. But I'm glad that you are at least open minded about your thoughts. Should it come out in the open that my assumptions are wrong, then I too will see it the same way you are. I will add this though - I think the players seriously need a Players Association in India, which can help them manage their schedules better than are right now. Given the huge volume of games we play, we can set up a India 1 XI, India 2 XI, etc. or something like that.

[graphic23]

Who are we kidding here? Fact is dhoni was suffering from fatigue+injury at that time, now are we saying if BCCI did *not* force him, he would have opted out? The only reason for his participation was force from BCCI ? Puh-leeez, puh-leez.

Read before you talk. I've mentioned several times how the IPL was a revolutionary thing in Cricket. Now, given that he was part of the WC XI winning squad that led to the creation of these tournaments, it must have been exciting to participate in the tournament.

Once he took part in the IPL, SRL Test series was ruled out since he cannot keep on continuing with injury/fatigue. The question is was he forced to choose IPL and was that (BCCI force) the only or even primary reason?

Because he would have known how much fatigue IPL would have caused beforehand, right?

The answer why he primarily chose what he chose, is obvious, maybe not to those who wear blinkers. (And choose he did, he knew he could not go onto another Test series after that long IPL days got over, so he did choose one over the other)

Why don't you stick to good samaritan works that does not pay and let others around you who do appreciate money, earn their money ? Hmm? You speak as if you never worked for money.

[bharat297]

This is annoying me now. People that say that Dhoni was greedy in choosing to play for the IPL ... How can you begrudge anyone the right to earn money? If you were working for a company and you got offered to work on a side project that would earn you $1.5m for 6 weeks work, would you refuse to take it simply because it might affect your current work? Of course not, you would find a way to manage it. Thats what most people do. Dhoni did the same thing. Furthermore, as the Indian captain and the highest profile player in the inaugural IPL tournament, he was the face of the whole tournament. Imagine if he pulled out. It would have been a bust. An absolute media circus (that is less of a point now as Dhoni doesnt mind a media circus anyway). Several Indian players played in the IPL and went on to play in the Sri Lanka series such as Gambhir, Sehwag, Zaheer, Ishant, etc ... so obviously Dhoni could not have forecasted that he would have been so fatigued. At the end of the day, Dhoni's place in the Test side is more expendible than his place in the ODI side. As a Test player, he is not one of our main batsman and he wasnt our captain at the time. Not playing in the Tests was not as big of an impact on India as would have been not playing in the ODIs.

[King]

In what could be a blueprint for Dhoni's regime as skipper of the Indian team from now on, the wicketkeeper-batsman gave his team members a dressing down in team hotel on Sunday, it's reliably learnt.

To me the entire article is unreliable. What the heck does "It's reliably learnt" mean? If internal meetings are going to be made available to media by players then the very first thing Dhoni must be telling the players is to stop leaking internal meeting outcomes to media. Anyhow I don't trust these unreliable reports. You guys have spent hours debating this unreliable report :omg:

[Shehezaada]

This is annoying me now. People that say that Dhoni was greedy in choosing to play for the IPL ... How can you begrudge anyone the right to earn money? If you were working for a company and you got offered to work on a side project that would earn you $1.5m for 6 weeks work, would you refuse to take it simply because it might affect your current work? Of course not, you would find a way to manage it. Thats what most people do. Dhoni did the same thing. Furthermore, as the Indian captain and the highest profile player in the inaugural IPL tournament, he was the face of the whole tournament. Imagine if he pulled out. It would have been a bust. An absolute media circus (that is less of a point now as Dhoni doesnt mind a media circus anyway). Several Indian players played in the IPL and went on to play in the Sri Lanka series such as Gambhir, Sehwag, Zaheer, Ishant, etc ... so obviously Dhoni could not have forecasted that he would have been so fatigued. At the end of the day, Dhoni's place in the Test side is more expendible than his place in the ODI side. As a Test player, he is not one of our main batsman and he wasnt our captain at the time. Not playing in the Tests was not as big of an impact on India as would have been not playing in the ODIs.

your confusing a bunch of issues here. How would the IPL be a bust if Dhoni didn't play? You have icon players on every single team. Not have forecasted? We have people saying Dhoni knows his body better then anyone else and then the excuse of not being able to forecast fatigue! Why couldn't he have thought simply, again, let's take the BCCI force factor out and focus simply on IPL vs SRL, that hey here's 1.5 months of time that I can rest up and then play the SRL series?? We NEEDED him in the test series. We dropped atleast 3 chances per innings in 3 tests, which you can't do. Dhoni wouldn't have done much with the bat but his keeping is excellent. If he was there we could have won the series. Boy graphic your right, sure does sound like I'm harping on here. But it's just for discussion sake...

[bharat297]

Yeah I have no problem with people harping on. Its a forum isnt it? Healthy discussion is always good. The whole point of a forum is discussion. Back to the topic though, imagine the captain of India (especially the T20 captain of India), the highest paid player of the tournament, the face of the first series of the IPL (in terms of promotion and marketing of the tournament), all of a sudden saying "I am not going to play in the IPL". The media would have gone mad. However, even taking that into account, I dont think it was a case of it being IPL vs SRL ... because its not like there was nothing in between. We had 2 one day international tournaments (Kitply Cup and Asia Cup) in between. In hindsight, Dhoni should have probably pulled out of one of those tournaments (probably Kitply cup). There is a very likely chance that Dhoni was fine after the IPL but after 2 more ODI tournaments, he suddenly felt the weight of the schedule on him and then decided to pull out of the SRL test series.

[Shehezaada]

Yeah I have no problem with people harping on. Its a forum isnt it? Healthy discussion is always good. The whole point of a forum is discussion. Back to the topic though, imagine the captain of India (especially the T20 captain of India), the highest paid player of the tournament, the face of the first series of the IPL (in terms of promotion and marketing of the tournament), all of a sudden saying "I am not going to play in the IPL". The media would have gone mad. However, even taking that into account, I dont think it was a case of it being IPL vs SRL ... because its not like there was nothing in between. We had 2 one day international tournaments (Kitply Cup and Asia Cup) in between. In hindsight, Dhoni should have probably pulled out of one of those tournaments (probably Kitply cup). There is a very likely chance that Dhoni was fine after the IPL but after 2 more ODI tournaments, he suddenly felt the weight of the schedule on him and then decided to pull out of the SRL test series.

i agree there. should have pulled out of kitply.

[Aaku]

"Remember' date=' winning is a habit, losing is a process and nothing is a disaster"[/quote'] Rockstaaaaaaaaaar :adore::adore:

[Params7]

Looks like you are still carrying that head injury of yours.

At least I still live in the real world, unlike you.