seedhi Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 Why would the army or employers or anybody dont want gay men? The US army has a discriminatory policy towards gays. I am sure the Indian army also excludes gays, though it is probably not written anywhere explicitly. What happens now? Can the army continue its dsicrimination if it sees it fit not to have gays in its ranks? Of course if the employer has his own business and does not get any kind of government funding, he/ she is allowed to do what he/she wants.Actually no. No Indian employer can discriminate based on caste, gender etc. So what about gays? Especially given the fact that many religious groups are opposed to homosexuality? Can gays be allowed into masjids? Can gay Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs be excommunicated simply because they are gay? The court has simply not looked into this issue. It should have left it to the Parliament to decide on this. yes a head of the family can give his property rights who is gay/lesbian.I am talking of the opposite - can a father withhold the property rights of a gay daughter or son? Anyway this is just one peripheral questions that can be raised now.
triam Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 The US army has a discriminatory policy towards gays. I am sure the Indian army also excludes gays, though it is probably not written anywhere explicitly. What happens now? Can the army continue its dsicrimination if it sees it fit not to have gays in its ranks? Actually no. No Indian employer can discriminate based on caste, gender etc. So what about gays? Especially given the fact that many religious groups are opposed to homosexuality? Can gays be allowed into masjids? Can gay Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs be excommunicated simply because they are gay? The court has simply not looked into this issue. It should have left it to the Parliament to decide on this. I am talking of the opposite - can a father withhold the property rights of a gay daughter or son? Anyway this is just one peripheral questions that can be raised now. If you are stating that the rules should be made clear, regarding discrimination against gays in various fields, yes then I agree. The US lags behind most western countries in these types of issues, so yes I know about the DADT (Dont Ask Dont Tell) policy they have, maybe as a first step that would be good enough for the army.
The Outsider Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 I am only questioning the premise that is given to allow homosexuality - that it is simply a matter of individual rights and does not hurt others. If this logic is followed a lot of other unlawful activities could be legalized. Well at least you are consistent with your stand that anything consensual done by adults behind closed doors should be legalized. I am opposed to this judgment of the High Court allowing homosexuality. For one it opens a HUGE pandoras box. For example, now what is the army supposed to do? They, surely, will find it hard to have gay men in their ranks, and most probably reject gay men during the psychology tests. Now, will the gay men be able to file discrimination complaints against the army? It can be the same in the work place - I can imagine many situations where employers would not want gay men. What are they going to do now? The court judgment has been delivered without due application of thought. Can their be discrimination in jobs against openly gay people? Can a head of the family divest the property rights for his child who has turned out to be gay? Any society aspiring to be liberal and modern will have to deal with these questions. I am not saying these are not legitimate concerns, but it's any day better to come out and deal with these issues rather than continue to discriminate against a group of people based on their sexual preferences and activities. Even developed countries face these challenges day in and day out. There is implicit discrimination against gays even in the most liberal countries, but that does not mean the recourse is to make it illegal. The solution is to educate and open the society towards their acceptance to the point where the discrimination is eradicated. Even in the US, I have gay friends who have not revealed their sexual preference at their work place - not that they are needed to anyway, but also because they want to be that extra bit careful. If parents can cut off ties with their children just because they happened to marry in a different caste, there is of course going to be discrimination against them if they are gay as well. As a society we should eradicate both.
The Outsider Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 And how will the progeny NOT be affected? Theyre mating into the same gene pool and its bound to cause health / mental issues. BTW i think marriage amongst cousins is not wise too. A couple can choose not to have kids, they can adopt, or if they do decide to have their own they can have tests during pregnancy to determine if the child is likely to be effected by a genetic disorder.
Texy Posted July 2, 2009 Author Posted July 2, 2009 wow great day for individual liberty and justice as delhi high court just legalized gay sex amongst consenting adults.
kumble_rocks Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 I think polygamy should be legalized for all and also polyandry. What consensual adults choose to do in their bedrooms should not be the government's concern. The government should worry about the rapes' date=' murders, extortions, terrorism, and corruption which is rampant in society and not about some gang bang in someone's house.[/quote'] Agree with your post ! But in reality , it's only Muslims now who insist on the practice of polygamy and that is wrong ! Either they should scrap it or allow for polyandry ? Do you agree ? Also, the issue is not just about groupie sex and what not , the issue here should the state recognize gay marriage , polygamy etc . I think gay marriage should be legal , I am opposed to polygamy minus the clause for polyandry. For example , the Mormons also practiced polygamy and it is illegal now . I agree with this decision simply because it is a license for only one sex to have to multiple partners !
kumble_rocks Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 watever outsider said. I don't see VHP , Bajrang dal etc demand polygamy . Do you ? So , would you be willing to say that it's only Muslims who insist on polygamy. Or is it too too PC for u ?:winky: After all you wanted the OP title to be changed !:hysterical:
Brainfade Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 I don't see VHP ' date=' Bajrang dal etc demand polygamy . Do you ? So , would you be willing to say that it's only Muslims who insist on polygamy. Or is it too too PC for u ?:winky: After all you wanted the OP title to be changed !:hysterical:[/quote'] Them and some (not all) Mormons.
triam Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 I don't see VHP ' date=' Bajrang dal etc demand polygamy . Do you ? So , would you be willing to say that it's only Muslims who insist on polygamy. Or is it too too PC for u ?:winky: After all you wanted the OP title to be changed !:hysterical:[/quote'] I have no problem saying it is muslims who insist on polygamy, now can we change the title??
The Outsider Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 Agree with your post ! But in reality , it's only Muslims now who insist on the practice of polygamy and that is wrong ! Either they should scrap it or allow for polyandry ? Do you agree ? Also, the issue is not just about groupie sex and what not , the issue here should the state recognize gay marriage , polygamy etc . I think gay marriage should be legal , I am opposed to polygamy minus the clause for polyandry. For example , the Mormons also practiced polygamy and it is illegal now . I agree with this decision simply because it is a license for only one sex to have to multiple partners ! I agree with your post - there should be a uniform law for all citizens in a country being the cornerstone. But I feel you are obfuscating the issue by needlessly dragging on about polygamy and Muslims. That happened 25 years ago and ideally should be made uniform. But how does it take away from the success of the gay community today? And I am taking this with caution because the issue is yet to be brought up in the parliament which might well overturn the court ruling as happened in the Shah Bano case. Hopefully, we have matured over the last 25 years to prevent such a thing from happening.
kumble_rocks Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 I agree with your post - there should be a uniform law for all citizens in a country being the cornerstone. But I feel you are obfuscating the issue by needlessly dragging on about polygamy and Muslims. That happened 25 years ago and ideally should be made uniform. But how does it take away from the success of the gay community today? And I am taking this with caution because the issue is yet to be brought up in the parliament which might well overturn the court ruling as happened in the Shah Bano case. Hopefully, we have matured over the last 25 years to prevent such a thing from happening. OP deals with Muslim organization who want to call for a ban on homosexuality. I just find it strange simply because they want to continue with the alleged freakish practice of group sex via polygamy and more importantly want the government to recognize ! So , it is totally relevant to topic at hand. As a social liberal , I will call out any organization , community which practice discrimination as well hypocrisy . This is a classic case of hypocrisy by muslim organization. Does that mean all muslims feel like that . Absolutely not .In fact , I do admire secular liberal muslims even in our Parosi site. I have much more in common with them then some hindus here. I am happy that our country has taken the first baby step. FYI , I don't care for Hindu nut jobs like Bajrang dal , VHP etc either. Start a thread about hindu discriminatory practices and I will certainly be generous with my 2 cents. But, I choose not to be PC ...
The Outsider Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 OP deals with Muslim organization who want to call for a ban on homosexuality. I just find it strange simply because they want to continue with the alleged freakish practice of group sex via polygamy and more importantly want the government to recognize ! So ' date=' it is totally relevant to topic at hand. As a social liberal , I will call out any organization , community which practice discrimination . I am happy that our country has taken the first baby step. FYI , I don't care for Hindu nut jobs like Bajrang dal , VHP etc either. Start a thread about hindu discriminatory practices and I will certainly be generous with my 2 cents. But, I choose not to be PC ...[/quote'] The OP's agenda on the board has been singular. An experienced poster like you should have been able to see through it. The denouncement of the move has come across the board from all religious leaders. I posted a few quotes about it in one of the first posts of the thread. And anyhow, what Muslim leaders are saying is not inconsistent with what they believe in. Their religion allows for polygamy and does not allow for homosexuality. So, I really don't see any hypocrisy on their part. Idiocy yes. Same would hold true for any religious organization which would oppose any move they perceive to be against the religion they claim to represent.
kumble_rocks Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 ^ I did edit my post to add couple of statements .
kumble_rocks Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 The OP's agenda on the board has been singular. An experienced poster like you should have been able to see through it. The denouncement of the move has come across the board from all religious leaders. I posted a few quotes about it in one of the first posts of the thread. And anyhow, what Muslim leaders are saying is not inconsistent with what they believe in. Their religion allows for polygamy and does not allow for homosexuality. So, I really don't see any hypocrisy on their part. Idiocy yes. Same would hold true for any religious organization which would oppose any move they perceive to be against the religion they claim to represent. You may not see any hypocrisy , but I do ! As regards to OP's agenda , I honestly don't know that poster quite well. Is he like DR ?
The Outsider Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 You may not see any hypocrisy ' date=' but I do ! As regards to OP's agenda , I honestly don't know that poster quite well. Is he like DR ?[/quote'] I still don't get the hypocrisy part - polygamy is allowed in their religion so they ask for it, homosexuality is not allowed so they protest against it. Where/what is the hypocrisy?
kumble_rocks Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 I still don't get the hypocrisy part - polygamy is allowed in their religion so they ask for it' date=' homosexuality is not allowed so they protest against it. Where/what is the hypocrisy?[/quote'] Probably hypocrisy in their religion then !:winky:
triam Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 Probably hypocrisy in their religion then !:winky: redundant though, all religions are hypocritical including in this case Islam.
kumble_rocks Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 redundant though' date=' all religions are hypocritical including in this case Islam.[/quote'] That I agree !
seedhi Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 Any society aspiring to be liberal and modern will have to deal with these questions. I am not saying these are not legitimate concerns, but it's any day better to come out and deal with these issues rather than continue to discriminate against a group of people based on their sexual preferences and activities. Even developed countries face these challenges day in and day out. There is implicit discrimination against gays even in the most liberal countries, but that does not mean the recourse is to make it illegal. The solution is to educate and open the society towards their acceptance to the point where the discrimination is eradicated. I dont understand why we are comparing ourselves with the western nations. The western nations have high literacy rates, incomes, low poverty, and are not as religious as India. Simply importing concepts from the west is not going to work. You say that we need to educate the people about gay issues. OK fine - then go ahead and spread awareness before asking for decriminalizing homosexuality. Many western nations allow gay marriage - so should India also go ahead and allow it? Some countries allow drugs - so can India also allow drugs? People in India also need to be educated about female child being an asset rather than a liability. So can we allow female abortion which is allowed in the west? Will it not create havoc in the society? The simple fact is that this issue needs to be left to the Parliament and the Government - not the Courts. A few years ago the Supreme Court did just that - it left it to the Parliament. I hope this judgment is challenged in the Supreme Court and the matter is eventually left to the Parliament.
The Outsider Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 I dont understand why we are comparing ourselves with the western nations. The western nations have high literacy rates, incomes, low poverty, and are not as religious as India. Simply importing concepts from the west is not going to work. And what's wrong in importing the good concepts based on equal opportunities to all from the West? Change has to start from somewhere and it's not that this judgment was delivered overnight, it is a culmination of years of protests and legal process. You say that we need to educate the people about gay issues. OK fine - then go ahead and spread awareness before asking for decriminalizing homosexuality. Many western nations allow gay marriage - so should India also go ahead and allow it? Some countries allow drugs - so can India also allow drugs? People in India also need to be educated about female child being an asset rather than a liability. So can we allow female abortion which is allowed in the west? Will it not create havoc in the society? And who said awareness is not being spread about the issue? There are many groups doing it and these court cases also highlight how our society is systematically discriminating against a particular group. Also, yeah gay marriage should be the next logical step. This is only a part of the entire process. Which country allows drugs? if you are referring to Marijuana, it is already legal in India in certain states. And the process of the importance of a female child is also in the works. Female literacy rates and their active involvement is on the rise. There is still a long way to go but we are not regressing. The simple fact is that this issue needs to be left to the Parliament and the Government - not the Courts. A few years ago the Supreme Court did just that - it left it to the Parliament. I hope this judgment is challenged in the Supreme Court and the matter is eventually left to the Parliament. I suppose you were very happy about the Shah Bano case as well, when divorce rights of Muslim women were overruled by the Parliament because it did not appeal to the religious senstivity of a particular group? Probably not, because that group happened to be Muslim. But now when the court has passed an equally important equal rights judgment and it is in contradiction to your views of sexuality, you want the Parliament to step in and overturn the court's ruling?
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