Isn't Ganguly an EXTREMELY OVERRATED captain ??

[Gambit]

Also ..as VVS once agan pointed out' date=' folks are giving all the credit to Ganguly..but forgetting John Wright, who was made the coach after the match fixing controversy in 2000.[/quote'] So how many times have you mentioned Kirsten in this thread? What about Tendulkar who gave Dhoni the only ODI tournament he has won?

[Chandan]

domainK, I think ,VVS posts very well convey what I am trying to put forth. Ganguly was good, but not great. Alot of it is false romantasization of what GANGULY has brought about.

So which Indian captain has been great according to you and why? Or put it this way, which Indian captain has been better than Ganguly and why?

[chanakya]

The decision to make Dravid keep was jointly decided by Wright and Ganguly( in Dravid's own words, see below) , but you would be want to give ganguly all the credit, right ? http://www.rediff.com/wc2003/2002/nov/12inter.htm Atleast Dravid picked up as a batter averaging nearly 40 at a strike rate of 75 in his last 100 games ( purely as a batsman). Ganguly on the other hand averaged a pathetic 35 in his last 100 games at an even pathetic strike rate of 71. Then went crying to Sharad pawar..after he got kicked out of the team...So sad he could'nt motivate himself. LOL @ ^ . yeah Ganguly the selector cum motivator. LOL. Atleast have a hang of the facts before parading your utter lack of knowledge. http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/36084.html?class=2;filter=advanced;orderby=default;template=results;type=batting Yuvi after all the Ganguly motivation averaged 30 at strike rate of 86 in 110 games under Gangu. " 44 at strike rate of 86 in 68 games against Dravid. " 42 at strike rate of a whopping 96 in 53 games under Dhoni. It's so obvious Gangu's diktat and " motivation " brought the best out Yuvi among all the captains.:--D How old am I ? Old enough to clear a few illusions of your wrt Indian cricket.

Of course Wright had a huge impact on Indian cricket, without him India would have double the difficulty getting out of the nadir it had reached. Yes how old are is a very important question. Why? Cause you are trying to clear the illusion of people who have followed Indian cricket when watching abroad games were a nightmare. When each win was celebrated and but every loss not analyzed so much cause well losses were rather frequent. Clearly you have no idea about what backing can do. If what Ganguly did not matter at all then why did BCCI put the gag order and asked certain members to shut up? the backing of a boss at the start of your career can be a major difference in the direction you go later on. In the corporate world a major chucnk of people leave because of bad bosses even in the Of course ganguly's distaste of slow left arm bowlers did mean the murli karthik never got a god run in the India side which was rather bad. and oh i forgot this part.. No one talks about Ganguly's mysterious, cowardly injuries in the morning of the 1st day of a test on seeing green pitches ( does nagpur against Australia ring a bell ? ) . How is this supposed to effect team morale ? wasnt that the one where he actually produced a medical certificate aw well (though knowing India and medical certificates its hardly a big deal getting one) and of course your statement does happen to mean tha ganguly never faced greener pitches than that in his life right? Anyone remember the name of the guy who actually ordered the pitch to be made green. Didnt he become the head of Mahastra cricket association? damn gtg for a meeting :D

[patriot]

So how many times have you mentioned Kirsten in this thread? What about Tendulkar who gave Dhoni the only ODI tournament he has won?

Kirsten has been great, no one can deny that. But we won the WC under Dhoni w/o a coach. Under Dhoni we: Beat Oz in OZ in ODIS for the first time in our history. Highlights of Mahi's short stint as captain in ODIS: Thrashed Lanka in Lanka after 10 years ( without Tendulkar) not once but twice. Lanka's home record is as formidable as Australias in ODIs. Thrashed NZ in NZ in the ODIS ( first time they lost a home ODI series in some 5 years ) - even sides like RSA and Aussies could not overcome them at home. Aussies infact in their last attempt got beaten 3-0. Beat WI in WI (without SRT) after ages. Biyatch slapped England at home ...6- 0 ? or something ? Under Ganguly I remember us just drawing 3-3, and that famous Flintoff shirt waving incident in Mumbai. Win loss record under Dhoni 33-16. Ganguly had as good a team, a team of superstars...yet http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/28779.html?captain=1;class=2;filter=advanced;orderby=default;template=results;type=batting ... Win loss ratio of 76-66...and 30 games out of this were against minnows ( Kenya + Zimbabwe + NL + UAE + Bangladesh ) . I rest my case.

[patriot]

So which Indian captain has been great according to you and why? Or put it this way, which Indian captain has been better than Ganguly and why?

Dhoni. See above.

[Chandan]

Dhoni. See above.

And why? What are his achievements so far? Please compare that to Ganguly's achievements also with the context in mind the team they inherited from the previous captain.

Kirsten has been great, no one can deny that. But we won the WC under Dhoni w/o a coach. Under Dhoni we: Beat Oz in OZ in ODIS for the first time in our history. Highlights of Mahi's short stint as captain in ODIS: Thrashed Lanka in Lanka after 10 years ( without Tendulkar) not once but twice. Lanka's home record is as formidable as Australias in ODIs. Thrashed NZ in NZ in the ODIS ( first time they lost a home ODI series in some 5 years ) - even sides like RSA and Aussies could not overcome them at home. Aussies infact in their last attempt got beaten 3-0. Beat WI in WI (without SRT) after ages. Biyatch slapped England at home ...6- 0 ? or something ? Under Ganguly I remember us just drawing 3-3, and that famous Flintoff shirt waving incident in Mumbai. Win loss record under Dhoni 33-16. Ganguly had as good a team, a team of superstars...yet http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/28779.html?captain=1;class=2;filter=advanced;orderby=default;template=results;type=batting ... Win loss ratio of 76-66...and 30 games out of this were against minnows ( Kenya + Zimbabwe + NL + UAE + Bangladesh ) . I rest my case.

Sorry. Dhoni, won a T20 WC which any team can win and where teams like Australia are bundled out early. This just cannot be compared to ODI WC or CT where we play 50 over format. How many test series has Dhoni won in Australia if he is better since Ganguly drew one there? How many test series has he won against SA even at home since Ganguly won one? What are his test records as captain in England, Pakistan? Nothing. And you call him better? Let him prove himself.

[patriot]

See the above post, madam. 5.33 AM

[patriot]

And why? What are his achievements so far? Please compare that to Ganguly's achievements also with the context in mind the team they inherited from the previous captain. Sorry. Dhoni, won a T20 WC which any team can win and where teams like Australia are bundled out early. This just cannot be compared to ODI WC or CT where we play 50 over format. How many test series has Dhoni won in Australia if he is better since Ganguly drew one there? How many test series has he won against SA even at home since Ganguly won one? What are his test records as captain in England, Pakistan? Nothing. And you call him better? Let him prove himself.

What do you mean nothing , when he's not even had a chance ?? When he has had a chance, he's blown Ganguly far and away. Beating NZ in NZ. Beating Aus 2/2 times. Beating RSA in the only game in captained. Winning his 5 out of his 7 games , drawing 2 , losing none. No minnows. Ganguly in 49 games could win India only 13. 5 of which were against minnows. Be it keeping calm under pressure, or leading from the front with the bat, Dhoni is miles ahead of Ganguly, numbers just prove it.

[Gambit]

Kirsten has been great, no one can deny that. But we won the WC under Dhoni w/o a coach. Under Dhoni we: Beat Oz in OZ in ODIS for the first time in our history. Highlights of Mahi's short stint as captain in ODIS: Thrashed Lanka in Lanka after 10 years ( without Tendulkar) not once but twice. Lanka's home record is as formidable as Australias in ODIs. Thrashed NZ in NZ in the ODIS ( first time they lost a home ODI series in some 5 years ) - even sides like RSA and Aussies could not overcome them at home. Aussies infact in their last attempt got beaten 3-0. Beat WI in WI (without SRT) after ages. Biyatch slapped England at home ...6- 0 ? or something ? Under Ganguly I remember us just drawing 3-3, and that famous Flintoff shirt waving incident in Mumbai. Win loss record under Dhoni 33-16. Ganguly had as good a team, a team of superstars...yet http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/28779.html?captain=1;class=2;filter=advanced;orderby=default;template=results;type=batting ... Win loss ratio of 76-66...and 30 games out of this were against minnows ( Kenya + Zimbabwe + NL + UAE + Bangladesh ) . I rest my case.

As I said before, ODI bilateral series are well and good but these are things that not many remember. Winning multi-team tourneys and reaching the finals/winning CTs and WCs are the real achievements in ODIs. To equal Ganguly, he must atleast reach the CT final this year if not win it. And then of course, there's the 2011 World Cup.

[patriot]

As I said before' date=' ODI bilateral series are well and good but these are things that not many remember. Winning multi-team tourneys and reaching the finals/winning CTs and WCs are the real achievements in ODIs. To equal Ganguly, he must atleast reach the CT final this year if not win it. And then of course, there's the 2011 World Cup.[/quote'] I am afraid that argument doesn't hold any weight. South Africa have sucked at CT and World Cup. Yet behind Aus over the last 12 years or so they have been the most ruthless, feared and consistent side. Infact before 99 WC in the 90's they were the BEST ODI side in the world under Cronje. Thats where Dhoni is taking us. Hopefully 2011 will be ours.

[Gambit]

What do you mean nothing , when he's not even had a chance ?? When he has had a chance, he's blown Ganguly far and away. Beating NZ in NZ. Beating Aus 2/2 times. Beating RSA in the only game in captained. Winning his 5 out of his 7 games , drawing 2 , losing none. No minnows. Ganguly in 49 games could win India only 13. 5 of which were against minnows. Be it keeping calm under pressure, or leading from the front with the bat, Dhoni is miles ahead of Ganguly, numbers just prove it.

False. India won 21 tests under Ganguly. 12 of them came against non-minnows . 5 wins away from home. 1st test win in Australia after 20+ years. 1st test win in WI after nearly 30 years. 1st series win in Pakistan ever. As mentioned ad-nauseam, Ganguly's impact was beyond numbers. If you fail to see that, then this exchange is meaningless.

[Gambit]

I am afraid that argument doesn't hold any weight. South Africa have sucked at CT and World Cup. Yet behind Aus over the last 12 years or so they have been the most ruthless, feared and consistent side. Infact before 99 WC in the 90's they were the BEST ODI side in the world under Cronje. Thats where Dhoni is taking us. Hopefully 2011 will be ours.

No one remembers RSA for being ruthless etc. People remember them for their non-performance in the big tourneys. BTW India were the second best ODI in the world after the 2003 World Cup and were consistently in the top 3(2nd best for a while as well) since 2004 under Ganguly. I don't see you acknowledge that.

[Chandan]

I am afraid that argument doesn't hold any weight. South Africa have sucked at CT and World Cup. Yet behind Aus over the last 12 years or so they have been the most ruthless, feared and consistent side. Infact before 99 WC in the 90's they were the BEST ODI side in the world under Cronje. Thats where Dhoni is taking us. Hopefully 2011 will be ours.

I'm afraid that it is your point does not hold any weight. Just after playing 7 tests as captain, he is better than Ganguly? And you accuse others of sweeping your questions under the carpet? Why are you sweeping mine? Can you list the teams that Ganguly inherited from Tendulkar and Dhoni inherited from Kumble? We can compare then? What about the situations? When Ganguly became the skipper, team was at rock bottom and even the most die hard cricket fans were losing faith in cricketers because of match fixing. What was the situation of cricket when Dhoni inherited? If you are comparing, compare everything so that people can get a perspective.

[patriot]

False. India won 21 tests under Ganguly. 12 of them came against non-minnows . 5 wins away from home. 1st test win in Australia after 20+ years. 1st test win in WI after nearly 30 years. 1st series win in Pakistan ever.

Sorry my bad. But still we couldnt beat a poor team like WI, all teams bar Zim had beaten WI in WI including our subcontinental brothers SL and Pak. We accomplished this under Dravid. But stats shows that Dhoni is still better. Prove me wrong.

[Mr. Wicket]

As mentioned ad-nauseam' date=' Ganguly's impact was beyond numbers. If you fail to see that, then this exchange is meaningless.[/quote']

But stats shows that Dhoni is still better. Prove me wrong.

This is getting painful and circular, Gambit. Shame some people can't get their heads around raw numbers and look at the old Indian teams with some perspective.

[patriot]

I'm afraid that it is your point does not hold any weight. Just after playing 7 tests as captain, he is better than Ganguly? And you accuse others of sweeping your questions under the carpet? Why are you sweeping mine? Can you list the teams that Ganguly inherited from Tendulkar and Dhoni inherited from Kumble? We can compare then? What about the situations? When Ganguly became the skipper, team was at rock bottom and even the most die hard cricket fans were losing faith in cricketers because of match fixing. What was the situation of cricket when Dhoni inherited? If you are comparing, compare everything so that people can get a perspective.

Dhoni also dint take over under very rosy circumstances. Chapell era had destroyed team morale. There were stories all over about senior/junior rifts. 1st round ouster from WC, where we suffered humiliation at the hands of Bangladesh. No senior was willing to take over captaincy. Dhoni lead a team a bachhas and won us the T20 WC. The fact that with the very same team ( against Aus last yr) we could only draw the 2 matches when Kumble captained but comprehensivley routed Aus in both the games Dhoni captained showed - He's a leader par excellence.

[patriot]

This is getting painful and circular' date=' Gambit. Shame some people can't get their heads around raw numbers and look at the old Indian teams with some perspective.[/quote'] I guess we should just agree to disagree. I have shown as has VVVS ..that even beyond numbers..alot of what is attributed to Ganguly is nothing but a myth and foolish romantization about inspiration and motivation et all. As VVS put it, Gangulys captaincy positives outweigh the negatives. He was good, but not as much as hes made out to be.

[Mr. Wicket]

Dhoni also dint take over under very rosy circumstances. Chapell era had destroyed team morale. There were stories all over about senior/junior rifts. 1st round ouster from WC' date=' where we suffered humiliation at the hands of Bangladesh. No senior was willing to take over captaincy. [/quote'] Wrong. Dravid took over at the helm and led India very well. In fact Dhoni's big triumph in South Africa in the T20 came following an outstanding test series in England where Dravid captained us to victory. Don't try and parallel the circumstances between Dhoni taking the captaincy and Ganguly taking it - it's chalk and cheese, as anyone who followed the Indian team a decade ago (or for longer) will know.

[patriot]

Wrong. Dravid took over at the helm and led India very well. In fact Dhoni's big triumph in South Africa in the T20 came following an outstanding test series in England where Dravid captained us to victory. Don't try and parallel the circumstances between Dhoni taking the captaincy and Ganguly taking it - it's chalk and cheese, as anyone who followed the Indian team a decade ago (or for longer) will know.

My friend, you are the one misrepresenting the circumstances. IIRC after the 2007 WC fiasco, under Chappel and Dravid, when Chappell was booted, Dhoni took over and lead us to win the T20 WC. And what does having an outstanding test series in England under Dravid have to do with Dhoni winning the T20 WC, when we practically went in with a differen squad ?

[Chandan]

My friend, you are the one misrepresenting the circumstances. IIRC after the 2007 WC fiasco, under Chappel and Dravid, when Chappell was booted, Dhoni took over and lead us to win the T20 WC. And what does having an outstanding test series in England under Dravid have to do with Dhoni winning the T20 WC, when we practically went in with a differen squad ?

Huh? After Chappell was given the boot, Dravid led us to two series victories-- in BD and in England. So how was Dhoni taking over from not a rosy circumstances? And a poor team like WI can get into a T20 semis and strong team like Australia can be bundled out from the tournament very early. YOU JUST CANNOT EQUATE T20 WITH TESTS AND ODIS. I hope you understand that.