Do you hate Pakistan?

[Rajiv]

Well... Rajiv are you telling me that the current situation itself is acceptable???...Hell no. I cant see terrorist guy saying he wont care of kids dying because they are not fighting jihad for them. If Pak does enough to save themselves from Taliba and Al-quaida...I will be happiy for Pak.. So it is not easy to say what I am saying...but unfortunately it is happening as we watch... I aint fanatic by any definition...so cheers..

Entire pak army, Let, ISI , Zardari Supari manickchand and all those ghaatis can goto hell - but there are ppl like u ad me there who want to end this I am talking abt them

[seedhi]

The question was not about using it as a bargaining chip - it was whether you want the area back. Do you really think anyone in Azad Kashmir wants to be part of India? And given the likely answer to the question' date=' taking Azad Kashmir into India is not just morally wrong in that it will be against the will of the people living there, but will create a population segment which will have to be quelled by force and create more problems for the country.[/quote']Pakistan is not going to hand over that area to us just like that. The question is whether India is going to go to war over that area - well the answer is no. But technically India does have a legal claim over that land, and there is no reason to simply give up that claim. On a personal level, I dont want India to go to war over PoK at least for now, but if pakistan disintegrates or is hopefully taken over by Taliban, then India should not hesitate to capture at least parts of PoK to make the border more manageable. This should have been done in 1971 itself, when Indira Gandhi released 90,000 PoWs for nothing in exchange except for empty promises. But for this to be a possibility, India needs to keep its claim on PoK intact.

It was not part of the Ladakh kingdom except on paper. The dispute over Aksai Chin runs back to the British and the Chinese with both people claiming it. No one lives there, the British and the Indians never made any permanent posts there and the Chinese did.

As I said it was the stupidity of Nehru (amongst his numerous ones) that he did not build a permanent presence in Aksai Chin. Legally India has a claim on it just as over the rest of Kashmir, and that is what matters.

Yeah, you can keep on claiming it.

Not me, the Indian govt sustains the claim. And yes we should claim it until China recognizes Arunachal, Sikkim and the rest of the parts held by us as being part of India.

[seedhi]

Wow' date=' this sounds soooooo wrooooong on so many fronts, especially the assertion that ‘If Taliban completely takes over Pakistan, they wont have time to create trouble for us..’ That shows a complete ignorance of geopolitics and history.[/quote']Are you not observing the present situation? Taliban are destroying pakistan and there is relative peace in J&K. I hope you can see the correlation. Not only that, in this turmoil, former Kashmiri militants have now turned on the pakistanis. I dont understand how any Indian can wish for normalcy in pakistan - that would only mean more militancy in J&K. The best way to keep India safe is to have pakistan mired in its problems. Moreover, if the USA does step in to defang pakistan of its nukes, that would be a huge plus for India. Basically, the two major strategic goals of India are: secure and peaceful J&K and the ultimate goal of a nuke-nude pakistan. Both will be achieved if pakistan slides into turmoil and civil war.

[The Outsider]

Pakistan is not going to hand over that area to us just like that. The question is whether India is going to go to war over that area - well the answer is no. But technically India does have a legal claim over that land, and there is no reason to simply give up that claim. On a personal level, I dont want India to go to war over PoK at least for now, but if pakistan disintegrates or is hopefully taken over by Taliban, then India should not hesitate to capture at least parts of PoK to make the border more manageable. This should have been done in 1971 itself, when Indira Gandhi released 90,000 PoWs for nothing in exchange except for empty promises. But for this to be a possibility, India needs to keep its claim on PoK intact.

Again, the question is not about keeping a claim intact for political benefits etc. The question is whether you want to take PoK back into India. I've already given you moral and political reasons as to why we should not take it back even if the opportunity arises.

As I said it was the stupidity of Nehru (amongst his numerous ones) that he did not build a permanent presence in Aksai Chin. Legally India has a claim on it just as over the rest of Kashmir, and that is what matters.Not me, the Indian govt sustains the claim. And yes we should claim it until China recognizes Arunachal, Sikkim and the rest of the parts held by us as being part of India.

Not just Nehru, even the British had not done anything in the region. In fact in the maps drawn immediately after independence not all of Aksai Chin claimed by India now was on them. The area was disputed and the Chinese have as much legal claim on it as India. At best, it can be called a disputed region but more realistically Chinese territory since they were the ones who established roads and posts in the region, certainly not an area with undisputed Indian claim.

[Ram]

1. Have you accepted Pakistan as a seperate muslim country

There is nothing for me to accept or deny. Pakistan, as a sovereign, independent nation is reality. Whether we like it or not, they’re not going to go away.

2. does indians still want to have this land back

Once again. Its more of a rhetorical question. You cannot reverse history. Such sort of wishful thinking based on some romantic notions of the past is what fuels the insanity of the present.

3. why do you hate Pakistan

I don’t hate Pakistan, I don’t hate the Pakistani people either. BUT, I vehemently detest those extremist elements within the Pakistani society that perverted the faith of Islam and justified the use of violence and terrorism as means of propping their narrow interests.

4. do you hate pakistan as much as that if there is a suicide blast, you feel nice and never think about the reality

I am not so inhumane as to revel at the loss of life, even if it were life of someone who has caused massive harm on me. But, do I actually feel sad if there was blast in Pakistan and people died? Probably not. However, this lack of mourning is more because we have all become increasingly numb to these acts of violence and terror, since they happen so often these days.

5. and finally what kind of pakistan do you want, (if you do want pakistan to stay pakistan until india is india)

This is the map of the world labeled according to Per capita income. Now, its clear as daylight that regions that are free from sources of instability are the ones that enjoy the highest standards of living. And that is precisely why I want Pakistan to be a free, prosperous, progressively moderate Islamic country (something like a Turkey) and its not because I have unbridled love for Pakistan, but because I have unbridled love for India. And its in India’s interest that moderate forces take over that country and the extremists are marginalized. And that can happen only if the Pakistani standard of life increases and young men and women think they have a decent shot at a dignified life.

[seedhi]

Again' date=' the question is not about keeping a claim intact for political benefits etc. The question is whether you [i']want to take PoK back into India. I've already given you moral and political reasons as to why we should not take it back even if the opportunity arises.

And I have given you a reason why India should look to push the borders northwards to a more hospitable terrain in order to secure J&K. Now the thing is that for this to be justified India cannot give up the claim on PoK. If PoK is handed on a platter to India, yes India should take it.

Not just Nehru, even the British had not done anything in the region. In fact in the maps drawn immediately after independence not all of Aksai Chin claimed by India now was on them.

As I said, Nehru displayed his abundant stupidity which cannot be justified by what the British did or did not do. The common solider dying in Kashmir today is also part of the Nehru legacy.

The area was disputed and the Chinese have as much legal claim on it as India. At best, it can be called a disputed region but more realistically Chinese territory since they were the ones who established roads and posts in the region, certainly not an area with undisputed Indian claim.

I know it is disputed, but I see no reason to give up that claim, at least till China gives up its claim on various parts of India. And just to be clear - yes I would like Aksai Chin to be a part of India.

[The Outsider]

And I have given you a reason why India should look to push the borders northwards to a more hospitable terrain in order to secure J&K. Now the thing is that for this to be justified India cannot give up the claim on PoK. If PoK is handed on a platter to India, yes India should take it.

So you see nothing morally wrong in integrating a region whose residents do not want to be part of India by force or more practically nothing wrong in integrating a region which will be hostile to India and will have to be quelled by force?

[Lurker]

As I said, Nehru displayed his abundant stupidity which cannot be justified by what the British did or did not do. The common solider dying in Kashmir today is also part of the Nehru legacy. I know it is disputed, but I see no reason to give up that claim, at least till China gives up its claim on various parts of India. And just to be clear - yes I would like Aksai Chin to be a part of India.

Another reason why I consider bhagwa loony to be cut from the same cloth as jehadist. A simple, and in my opinion, genuine thread becomes a platform to launch your own agenda!! Give it a rest man, even in this election your party got routed :cantstop:

[ViruRulez]

After all China claims the whole of Arunachal so why should we shy away. As I said' date= at the very least it should be used as a bargaining chip.

Actually this is right to an extent. Regarding the border dispute between India and China, there are mainly three areas of conflict - Akshai Chin, Arunachal and Tibet. But it has been a mutual understanding through the last several decades that we have accepted Akshai Chin and Tibet a part of China and China has accepted Arunachal a part of India. So, we should pressurize China on Akshai Chin and Tibet as much as they do on Arunachal. Otherwise both the countries start it over again then it will be a bigger mess than at present. We should not bow down to China but at the same time we should not pressurize over Akshai Chin if they dont pester about any of our actual territories like Arunachal. But yes in case China says anything we should not mince any words in replying back.

[Ram]

Are you not observing the present situation? Taliban are destroying pakistan and there is relative peace in J&K. I hope you can see the correlation. Not only that' date=' in this turmoil, former Kashmiri militants have now turned on the pakistanis. I dont understand how any Indian can wish for normalcy in pakistan - that would only mean more militancy in J&K.The best way to keep India safe is to have pakistan mired in its problems. [/quote'] Obviously, the rise of extremism and the Taliban in Waziristan and the other FATA areas does have role in keeping the Pakistani military occupied to the extent to which they now don’t have the time, resources and bandwidth to actively arm, train and foster Kashmiri insurgents. But, to make a swooping statement like ‘Violence in Kashmir is down because Taliban is taking control’ is so naïve on two fronts; 1) After 9/11, when Afghanistan became the frontier on the War on Terror, the US and its allies chose Pakistan as some sort of base from which operations into Pakistan were launched. Consequently, on one side, the Pakistani establishment and military got billions of dollars worth of aid. On the other side, investigations into the 9/11 attacks and the subsequent 7/7 London bombings and the Spain bombings revealed that a significant portions of these attacks were planned by extremist elements in Pakistan, with both the covert and overt support from ISI and other Pakistani institutional elements. This very same people were also actively promoting Jihad in Kashmir. And this is when the Western allies told Pakistan that they cannot claim to be a frontline ally on the war on terror on their western front in Afghanistan and then actively support insurgency in Indian Kashmir. This categorical assertion by leaders from the west was what forced Pervez Musharraf to give the landmark speech that he gave in 2002, in which, for the first time, Pakistan openly declared that it will not promote violence or extremism. So, Pakistan had to tone down its activities in Indian Kashmir not because they wanted to, but because they were forced to, partly by their preoccupation on the Western front, but mostly due to pressure from Western governments. 2) In your assertion, you speak as though the rise of Taliban in Pakistan is a good thing, which is sort of incredulous. Can you even imagine what would happen if the entire Pakistani nation of 140 million were to be under the control of radicalized elements? Assuming they do manage to take control of Pakistan, do you know where they’re going to set their next sights on? Of course, it’d be Kashmir. So, rather than having to deal with some rogue elements within the current Pakistani establishment promoting Jihad in Kashmir, if the Taliban takes over Pakistan, we will now have an entire army of extremists gunning for Kashmir. Do you think that’s a good thing? For now, at least the Indian govt. can hope to negotiate and put pressure on the Pakistani govt. If that country is taken over by extremists, who will we talk to? The terrorists? And you know what they will say…? - ‘Eff you!’

Moreover' date=' if the USA does step in to defang pakistan of its nukes, that would be a huge plus for India. [/quote'] Yes, that would come as a massive relief to Indian population.

Basically' date= the two major strategic goals of India are: secure and peaceful J&K and the ultimate goal of a nuke-nude pakistan.

Both will be achieved if pakistan slides into turmoil and civil war.

Absolutely WRONG!!

I agree.

[dial_100]

Entire pak army, Let, ISI , Zardari Supari manickchand and all those ghaatis can goto hell - but there are ppl like u ad me there who want to end this I am talking abt them

Rajiv... for People like you and me there in Pakistan... we all feel sympathy...deep..deeep sympathy. If there is anything we could do I am for it. Honestly.. we can hope something better happen for them...can't really do much...

[Ram]

WhatI find as a common trait among most right-wingers is their firm refusal to reconcile with history and move on. They keep saying ‘We want this back, I want that back..’ Well, its not gonna happen, live with it! Its much like how Hamas and sometimes the Iranian govt. refuse to recognize the right of existence of the State of Israel. Such deluded elements keep fueling conflict and instability.

[The Outsider]

^ Good post Morriz! While temporary instability in Pakistan might be good for India, it is extremely foolish to believe that a permanent Taliban takeover of Pakistan can remotely benefit India. Even if the world is somehow able to take the nukes away from Pakistan in such a scenario, Taliban are not a group who are going to rely on nukes anyway to cause problems in Kashmir and India. They will send an endless supply of armed militia into India and we will be left fighting a bleeding, guerrilla war in Kashmir, Punjab, and Rajasthan.

[SachDan]

I hate Pakistan. Having lived in the ME for half of life, I reserves the right to do so! ViruRulez :adore: You can never make out from his posts that he's a muslim residing in India ! PS: Having biryani in the wee-hours gives you a hint though :--D

[ViruRulez]

BTW what happened to the OP. He is nowhere to be seen after he opened this thread. What type of assignment is this where he does not need to check the replies to the thread too. :dontknow:

[seedhi]

So you see nothing morally wrong in integrating a region whose residents do not want to be part of India by force or more practically nothing wrong in integrating a region which will be hostile to India and will have to be quelled by force?

Lets conduct an fantastic experiment - suppose the pakistani army magically withdraws from PoK and says to India - go and take back your territory that you claim. What should India do? Ofcourse India will go and occupy PoK, it is infact obliged to by the same logic that the present Indian J&K is our territory.

[ViruRulez]

I hate Pakistan. Having lived in the ME for half of life, I reserves the right to do so! ViruRulez :adore: You can never make out from his posts that he's a muslim residing in India ! PS: Having biryani in the wee-hours gives you a hint though :--D

Why is that? what does a Muslim residing in India do differently :hmmm: .. I dont hate any country including Pakistan for the sake of it.. I hate a country when it is harming my country and its people and that is what the rogue state of Pakistan is doing .. the day they stop their terrorist factories and the day India stops getting affected due to them then I wont care about them anymore

[The Outsider]

Lets conduct an fantastic experiment - suppose the pakistani army magically withdraws from PoK and says to India - go and take back your territory that you claim. What should India do? Ofcourse India will go and occupy PoK, it is infact obliged to by the same logic that the present Indian J&K is our territory.

No....India should leave the area alone for two reasons : 1. Morally, it's incorrect to occupy a region against the will of the people living there. 2. Politically and economically it will be a huge drain on Indian resources to manage an area which does not want to be part of the country. If instead of the Pakistan army withdrawing from the region, the people of PoK want to join India then India should integrate it.

[The Outsider]

I hate Pakistan. Having lived in the ME for half of life, I reserves the right to do so! ViruRulez :adore: You can never make out from his posts that he's a muslim residing in India ! PS: Having biryani in the wee-hours gives you a hint though :--D

What a rubbish, patronizing post! VR is just like a typical Indian Muslim. There are others like Sooda and mhr on the board as well and so many others I know in real life. There might be a few pocket Muslim ghettos in India, but the average Muslim is as patriotic as the average Hindu.

[Ram]

^ Good post Morriz! While temporary instability in Pakistan might be good for India, it is extremely foolish to believe that a permanent Taliban takeover of Pakistan can remotely benefit India. Even if the world is somehow able to take the nukes away from Pakistan in such a scenario, Taliban are not a group who are going to rely on nukes anyway to cause problems in Kashmir and India. They will send an endless supply of armed militia into India and we will be left fighting a bleeding, guerrilla war in Kashmir, Punjab, and Rajasthan.

Exactly. And the same logic can be applied to counter all those war-mongering right-wingers who actively promote an open war between India and Pakistan as means to ‘settle’ the issue once for all. Do they even have a remote clue as to what the consequences of that war might be? Lets assume the best case scenario for India, which would be that the West loses faith in Pakistan’s ability to safeguard its nukes and takes it away from. And lets say we take advantage of this moment and attack them. Obviously, it will be a conventional war (since India has a no-first-use policy of nuclear weapons..). At the most, what we can do is to destroy isolated terror elements and training facilities. Even if we successfully manage to do that, the moment we pull our troops back, the extremists will be back in their 1000s. And this time, rather than just a stupid old book with some dodgy sounding verses, they will have all the images of death and destruction caused by the Indian army during their invasion to radicalize people. So, rather than having to deal with a few thousand extremist elements, we would now deal with an entire generation of Pakistanis baying for our blood. The right-wingers talk in general terms as though as our struggle against Pakistan is winnable. Guess what? Its not. Unfortunately, as a nation, we’re caught in a moment of history where our population has become the victim of a radicalized ideology and a hostile neighbor and we’re powerless to do anything about, apart from fortifying our own defences. All we can do is protect our homeland as much as we can and hope that the passage of time corrects the course of history.