Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

[MundaPakistani]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

>>> It?s quite clear that none of the players(including S Akhtar) have ever complained that they have been forced to pray or are forced to have beards. >>>And risk a life threatening fatwa.....

then can you explain why only 3 members of the team have beards? Can you explain why Asim Kamal hasn't played for PAK in so long yet players like hassan Raza, F iqbal and A razzaq have been prefered? Can you explain why Afridi was dropped for the tests vs ENG and totally dropped for the tests and ODIs vs WI?

[beetle]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team last time i saw ....even imran nazir was growing a fuzz on his chin...and that medium pacer who is losing his hair..(sorry i am a bit sleepy.... :hic: ) Anyways mian...it's ok.If you chose to believe what you believe...that's fine .Humari team thodi na hai...if you guys are fine..it's ok...as long they don't block my way on the plane someday .

[MundaPakistani]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

last time i saw ....even imran nazir was growing a fuzz on his chin...and that medium pacer who is losing his hair..(sorry i am a bit sleepy.... :hic: ) .

Yeah last time i saw even D Vettori was growing a fuzz on his chin too...must be influenced by Inzi's brief presence in the Caribbean ..had PAK qualified to the super 8s even D Vettori would have joined the Mullah group

[kumble_rocks]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

Yes I agree with everyone should have the freedom of speech including PJ Mir but what i was saying is that he is been making irresponsible statements all the way through the tour and this just seems to be another one. It?s quite clear that none of the players(including S Akhtar) have ever complained that they have been forced to pray or are forced to have beards. Secondly your point about Asim Kamal is quite strange because you are saying that F iqbal is in the team because of J Miandad?is this the same J Miandad who has blasted Bob and Inzi at every given opportunity? Oh and BTW S Afridi was dropped for the ODI and test series vs the WI even then A Kamal was not able to enter the SQUAD.

Looks like we are going in circles here. You still haven't answered my question about Mir's Fatwa. Do you condone it ? . Secondly , in Islamic republic of Pakistan , do you think people have the right to complain against any tenet of Islam ? . Which world are you living in, mate ?. S Akhtar and other players risk their lives if they start to complain about being forced to pray or do any other religious activities. Mr Mir has realized this the hard way. A fatwa is already out in his name issued by some crazy Mullah . And this has been reported in the BBC documentary.

?and what?s that suppose to mean? It?s a known fact that most of the PAK players up until 2001were not strong muslims.

Agree. The Pak team of 2003 led by Waqar were not overtly religious except for Saeed Anwar who because of the death of his 3 year old daughter became tablighi muslim. It's only later when fatso took over that Pak team has become on your face religious especially in the last two years. Please read the article published by nation posted by Shwetabh part of which I quote - Mushy says ""We all read the Holy Quran and pray five times every day. My prayer starts at 4.30 am. Most of the team have grown beards without moustaches in honour of the prophets." Even Inzamam has one now. The lack of moustache, he explained, is for hygiene reasons. How hygienic is a long beard then? "We wash it in clean water every day." Waking up players at 4:30 am to do namaz, Jesus give me a break . Can you imagine Boozerd shoaib forced to wake up at 4:30 am . No wonder , he was unhappy. And why should youth of the team be forced to be overtly religious when it is well known that guys like Malik , Butt,Hameed, YK etc like to have good time i,e enjoying bollywood movies, go to clubs,dance and party etc Even Mushy acknowledges the increase in the beard brigade. So what does that tell you mate ?

[beetle]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

last time i saw ....even imran nazir was growing a fuzz on his chin...and that medium pacer who is losing his hair..(sorry i am a bit sleepy.... :hic: ) .

Yeah last time i saw even D Vettori was growing a fuzz on his chin too...must be influenced by Inzi's brief presence in the Caribbean ..had PAK qualified to the super 8s even D Vettori would have joined the Mullah group

Nah!..Vettori has a country he can go to without fearing for a fatwa .His beard must be for some more worldly and less religious reason .

[Sooda]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

You still dont get it sooda. Its not about wether it effected the pak team performance or not. Its simply the morality of forcing/pressure to be more islamic.

No actually you dont get it. Lets see any interview report anything that shows that players were FORCED to pray and be more religious etc. Youre the only one who is saying this. Put it this way we all know how divided Pakistan teams have been in the past. There would have been nothing to stop players from publicly going against the people who were putting this so called pressure on them- Especially if the players unhappy with it were senior guys like Younis and especially if they had Bobs backing. If anything the Pak team have been a FAR FAR more united unit under Inzamam, than since the days of Wasim. For those who were especially religious neither you nor I can say whether this was forced upon them or genuine.

I know you are going to deny pressure was put but many reports suggest otherwise for eg. there was a report where some players were woken up for the morning namaz. I would hate to hear someone knocking at 5 on the morning of a match, if I dont care about his namaz), an overt display of the faith etc. are irksome.

Heres the thing. Non Muslims may not appreciate this. In fact WILL not. But praying is an ESSENTIAL part of our faith. The prayer in the morning is a part of this. The fact the the less religious guys in the Pak team were being coaxed to do so is a good thing and FAR FAR more important than anything they will or ever have done on a cricket pitch.

Also, I have not been in favour of these religious overtones even when Pakistan team were winning. I remember during the 2005 Ind-Pak series I saw a photograph somewhere with the entire Pakistan team offering namaz and Kaneria and Woolmer standing in the background on the practice pitch. Tell me how would you feel if you were one of these three, involved in practice and someone told you to hold on with the session for 20 minutes while you complete your prayers.

Again. Prayers are an essential part of the faith. They're not going to give it up just for the sake of Kaneria and Bob. It really is not a big deal those two can wait (it would not usually be for as long as 20 mins) - we do not know how Kaneria feels about it all (despite what dsr suggests) but frankly if If they don't like it- tough. Thats what the Pak players would have thought- quite rightly

The Pakistani players were also talking to PCB about not holding matches during the entire month of Ramazan. None of the squads from yesteryears did that. If Ramazan fell at a certain time of they year every year, it might still be a possibility but how can the entire calendar be shifted every year to accomodate for different times Ramazan falls.

So what? It just means that Pakistan will not play cricket for that month. Big deal.

Even after all this if they had become good human beings one might be tempted to give them the benefit of the doubt. But right from cheating to coverups to abusing they have been guilty of all conceivable transgressions in the past couple of years. So what have they learned from religion?

Cant defend things they might have done. I only know of Akhtar and Asif- and those two are dimwits...not aware abusing etc...

To think that the entire team of a country becomes so overtly religious in a matter of a couple of years without any pressure is naive.

No its not naive at all. What makes you think that they were under ANY pressure to become overtly religious. What could the reason have been behind it- none whatsoever. Pakistan's best players have been less than great Muslims. Very far fetched to think there would have been. Finally I am certain there is no real Fatwa on Mir. it was rashid latif who said that...

[Lurker]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

Heres the thing. Non Muslims may not appreciate this. In fact WILL not. But praying is an ESSENTIAL part of our faith. The prayer in the morning is a part of this. The fact the the less religious guys in the Pak team were being coaxed to do so is a good thing and FAR FAR more important than anything they will or ever have done on a cricket pitch.

Sooda, That shall count as coercion, is it not? In matter of religion, Islam or otherwise, there should be no force. If "less" religious players do not want to pray there is no reason for "more" religious players to coax them into it. Every person has to put his goals into perspective. If the goal of a player is the after-world then he should turn his effort towards that and not spend it playing cricket. Help me understand this simple thing now - There are two players. Player A sleeps at 10 pm, wakes at 6 am and starts his daily practice. Player B sleeps at 10 pm, gets up at 4:30 am, then either tries to sleep again or is up till its 6 am for practice. Which of the two players would be better prepared at practise? xxx

[Anakin]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team Just wondering, what exactly is forcing by your definition? The act of holding a sword over one's head? I wouldn't be surprised because that's exactly what had happened by the peaceloving people in the past.

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team why are u guys criticisng. pakistani players for extra shababa should pray at least 10 times a day.. allah willing result will come by 2025

[beetle]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team >>>It really is not a big deal those two can wait (it would not usually be for as long as 20 mins) - we do not know how Kaneria feels about it all (despite what dsr suggests) but frankly if If they don't like it- tough. Thats what the Pak players would have thought- quite rightly That's sad...not the words but the attitude.

[Guest BossBhai]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team -- Removed on request of the user --

[Guest BossBhai]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team -- Removed on request of the user --

[Holysmoke]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

Lets see any interview report anything that shows that players were FORCED to pray and be more religious etc. Youre the only one who is saying this. Finally I am certain there is no real Fatwa on Mir. it was rashid latif who said that...

u did see the interview i posted did you? next time, read the posts in the thread before u sit to argue :wtg: http://www.cricketnext.com/videos/24822/pak-cricket-in-a-religious-muddle.html

[Holysmoke]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team http://www.cricketnext.com/videos/24797/bob-wanted-cricket-not-religionhtml for the fatwa part

[Anakin]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

>>>It really is not a big deal those two can wait (it would not usually be for as long as 20 mins) - we do not know how Kaneria feels about it all (despite what dsr suggests) but frankly if If they don't like it- tough. Thats what the Pak players would have thought- quite rightly That's sad...not the words but the attitude.

Yep .... and especially comming form an Indian ... who along with many of his members from Ummah have been accorded the "Chirag-e-Secular" title by the esteemed torch bearers of secularism over here.

:lmao: :lmao:

[Sooda]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

Would you be ok with such a thing if the Non-Muslims did this to you at your work/school/wherever ... ?

Having studied in a Church of England School and having had to take part in hymn singing and church dos (for want of a better word)...and having stood in school assemblies in India (much longer than how long muslim prayers would take I can assure you) with everyone singing bhajans etc- YES I was/would be ok. All Bob and Danish had to do was wait- 10 mins at the most. Its not like THEY were forced to take part in the prayers or convert. For the Muslim players prayers are a duty, they should appreciate that sense of duty just as I could appreciate that I was studying in Hindu/Xian schools which took religion seriously and as per school rules I had to be at said assemblies etc. I think THAT ^ is what secularism is.

Every person has to put his goals into perspective. If the goal of a player is the after-world then he should turn his effort towards that and not spend it playing cricket.

Really? Why cant they do both. Millions do successfully the world over. The Pak team were doing successfully for MONTHS. As I pointed out- all this wasn't affecting their performances when they beat England and us...Heck MoYo is the most religious of the lot possibly and he's been one of the best batsmen in the world of late. Inzys been in great form. Even Akhtars been a different bowler from the guy we pasted in 03 Now one loss to Ireland and suddenly its a major problem.

Help me understand this simple thing now - There are two players. Player A sleeps at 10 pm, wakes at 6 am and starts his daily practice. Player B sleeps at 10 pm, gets up at 4:30 am, then either tries to sleep again or is up till its 6 am for practice. Which of the two players would be better prepared at practise? *****

As I have mentioned before - religion is paramount. Everything else is secondary. Player B should sleep a bit earlier maybe :p.

That's sad...not the words but the attitude.

Why should they give up key tenets of their faith just so Bob and Kaneria dont have the discomfort of standing around for 10 or so mins- if it WAS any discomfort i.e One more things I should point out again. Afridi actually said religion has given the team a focus and a sense of unity. That and Bob Woolmers coaching were a major reason why the pak team were so much better than they were before.

[kumble_rocks]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team Sooda Quote -) Heres the thing. Non Muslims may not appreciate this. In fact WILL not. But praying is an ESSENTIAL part of our faith. The prayer in the morning is a part of this. The fact the the less religious guys in the Pak team were being coaxed to do so is a good thing and FAR FAR more important than anything they will or ever have done on a cricket pitch. Sweet Jesus in Heaven ! Dude, you sound like a mullah . Who the hell do you think you are to tell less religious folks that praying is FAR FAR more important then anything they will do on a cricket pitch. If this is not coercing than I don't know what is ?

[Rahul]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team i thot u were bigger than all this, sooda. never mind. here's a classic quote:

Recalling an incident, Mir said, "A CD was being played, which was a Tabliqhy CD, and Bob, who was sitting behind me, said 'why don't you tell them to stop? If they want to listen to that they could on their iPods or personal devices', and he thought that he shouldn't be subjected to all that and I agreed with Bob." Mir's observation that Inzamam-ul Haq and his team mates prayed more and played less irked some quarters back home and the media manager had to flee Pakistan after a fatwah was issued against him. Mir had no doubt that "there would have been a fatwah against him (Woolmer) as well", had the coach made his observations public.

sad. take it easy, R

[King]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team I can't believe we are debating if religion should even be part of the makeup of a team :shrug: Religion is a personal thing and that should be left as it is at best. Sports bereft of religion are one of the most refreshing things to follow. Even this is being diluted by few religious men that love power. When the heck are people going to learn :wall: :wall: :wall: All the animosity around the world today is because of the religion and the last thing cricket needs is a religious interference.

[Sooda]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team So young players were forced. I don't know how much forcing there was, or what the nature of this 'forcing' was. None of us do. Thats really what it depends on I think. Saying prayers is a necessity and yes it is more important than work etc...that much must be imparted on every muslim, and maybe that was the effort being made by the more religious of the Pak lot. Ultimately though that urge has to come from within the person and not be forced upon them- so from that P.O View its not ideal no. Heres the weird thing though- 4 years ago the Pak team were on paper as good as they are now if not better. They could, quite realistically, have lost to Ireland say in the 03 WC. Every non Pakistani would have said ' thats just super-inconsistent Pak being them selves' ( The Pakistanis of course, would have said it was fixed) Now however they lose and religion or 'over religious zeal' becomes an easy scapegoat...when essentially it is the same Pak team with that same tendency to slip from the sublime to the ridiculous with great ease.