For tests : Raina or Kohli?

[spectre]

Its funny how you conclude that those who played for BP XI were the only test prospects and those who played for Ind 'A' against NZ 'A' weren't test worthy. Yet I see m Vijay was part of the Ind 'A' team..and ironically made his test debut before both Rohit and Kohli..all because Ganguly felt he was a good "talent". :hysterical: yet I do not see any voices being raised against Vijay's inclusion in the Test squad..that too as a first choice replacement no less. I'm interested what is Vijay's record like in 'A' tours..particularly abroad or against Int'l quality attacks? I'm asking becuse I do not know where to llok for List 'A' detailed stats. To my mind Murali has been great in Ranjis but I do not remember hearing about his performances on List 'A' circuit.

Thats the point, and Vijay looks so good at international level Scores against Country - A teams are not the only criteria for selection heck he has played at the highest international level continously for 2+ years now and has been the best among the younger group in ODIs, still people want to go back and analyze the 'A' matches scores Raina's talent is for everyone to see, not going by a few selectors perceptions When has ICFers started taking selectors choices at face value.

[The Outsider]

yet I do not see any voices being raised against Vijay's inclusion in the Test squad..that too as a first choice replacement no less. I'm interested what is Vijay's record like in 'A' tours..particularly abroad or against Int'l quality attacks? I'm asking becuse I do not know where to llok for List 'A' detailed stats. To my mind Murali has been great in Ranjis but I do not remember hearing about his performances on List 'A' circuit.

Are you just playing dumb? Vijay made his debut as an opener. There weren't really too many more deserving candidates for the opening slot, were there? He did well in the opportunities given and was persisted with. Or are you suggesting when Gambhir was banned we should have opened with Raina in a test match?

[Show_stopper]

Are you just playing dumb? Vijay made his debut as an opener. There weren't really too many more deserving candidates for the opening slot' date=' were there? He did well in the opportunities given and was persisted with. Or are you suggesting when Gambhir was banned we should have opened with Raina in a test match?[/quote'] No I think you are the one trying to turn a blind eye to the point I'm trying to make. I wanted to convey the following in my previous post. 1. I wanted to contradict Chandan's claim that those who didn't play against Aus in the BP XI team were unworthy of a Test spot from selectors POV. 2. I was curious whether Murali Vijay, at the time of his selection into the Test squad, came through the "system" as Chandan put it.Had he done anything against Int'l quality attacks(that seemed to be the criteria being discussed)? His performances after his selection have no bearing what so ever to the point I was trying to make. He has indeed justified the decision to select him at the time.

Or are you suggesting when Gambhir was banned we should have opened with Raina in a test match?

:hysterical: Calm down..there are people besides yourself who can think. No need for insults.

[S.Bond]

I htink Kholi will be better at test level than raina, yuvraj, sharma... But murli vijay and badrinath both look good so far... So i don't think there will kholi or raina in the team quickly... So no need to debate on it...

[Show_stopper]

That being said..cricinfo quoted Srikanth claiming that Laxman is fully fir and sure to play in the 2nd Test. So we can all hold our collective horses. Raina won't be making debut in Kolkota. And by the time next series comes around Rohit would have regained full fitness..so all of you guys won't have cause for complaints.

[The Outsider]

2. I was curious whether Murali Vijay, at the time of his selection into the Test squad, came through the "system" as Chandan put it.Had he done anything against Int'l quality attacks(that seemed to be the criteria being discussed)? His performances after his selection have no bearing what so ever to the point I was trying to make. He has indeed justified the decision to select him at the time.

There were no other openers who could have claimed to have done enough under the "system". On the other hand, there is no dearth of middle order batsmen with better credentials than Raina in the longer version of the game having scored : 1. Against genuine international level attacks in the long game 2. Big runs and centuries at the domestic level Raina doesn't meet any of the above criteria. His only credentials are on the basis of ODIs, a folly we have seen unfold in Yuvraj over the last few years.

:hysterical: Calm down..there are people besides yourself who can think. No need for insults.

Where did I insult you? :nervous:

[Show_stopper]

There were no other openers who could have claimed to have done enough under the "system". On the other hand, there is no dearth of middle order batsmen with better credentials than Raina in the longer version of the game having scored : 1. Against genuine international level attacks in the long game 2. Big runs and centuries at the domestic level Raina doesn't meet any of the above criteria. His only credentials are on the basis of ODIs, a folly we have seen unfold in Yuvraj over the last few years.

IIRC his opening partner, Abhimanyu Mukund, had done considerably better than him. Infact Mukund had scored a triple century and Vijay a century just before Gambhir got banned. What tipped the scale in Vijay's balance was Ganguly putting in a few words in his favor. BTW if it wasn't clear already I have no problems whatsoever with Vijay being in the XI..as he has proved himslef once he got that initial opportunity. Also you will notice that Vijay also did NOT fulfill the 1st point you mentioned above. That was the point I was trying to make basically.

Where did I insult you? :nervous:

If you didn't mean to give insult I apologize. I thought you actually believed I was suggesting we should have opened with Raina.

[cricketman]

Neither, Vijay and Badri are fine.

[teacup]

Kohli looks to be the most accomplished test batsman in the reserves. I would pick him over Yuvraj and Badrinath as well. The only real technical fault he has is his occasional tendency to bring the bat down from the third slip direction, but he has worked on that even on ODIs. And that to me has been the most remarkable characteristic of the guy. Not only has he scored runs at every opportunity he has been given, and that too against the best of attacks, he has constantly shown a willingness to work on his faults and do so very quickly. Just a few ODIs into his career, he has learned all the good things like rotating the strike, timing an assault, seeing out the better bowlers. Things which can take players up to 40-50 ODIs to master. He is just a cut above the rest of the competition. That special talent and personality, which you somehow sense is just not going to fail. Raina, is talented in his own way but he is no Kohli. For starters, there is no evidence that he can build and play long innings against any attack forget about top international attacks. 6 First class centuries in 50 odd games is mediocre to say the least, so is an average in the early 40s. Neither did he play any major innings in the domestic season this year. Just too many boxes for him to put a check mark against, even before we get into his technical issues against short pitch bowling.

Err...his scores against Australia and Pakistan, the only two teams with good pace bowling that he has faced, are 30, 10, 16. I would tone down the hyperbole until he proves himself against SA, Aus or at least Pak.

[The Outsider]

Err...his scores against Australia and Pakistan' date=' the only two teams with good pace bowling that he has faced, are 30, 10, 16. I would tone down the hyperbole until he proves himself against SA, Aus or at least Pak.[/quote'] Yeah, in those matches he got out to Afridi, Voges, and Bollinger - red hot pace bowlers. Regarding Pakistan's pace attack at Centurion, facing Roach and Tonge on the pacy Wanderers track was much more challenging. Never mind the fact that his mindset has improved as well since. He did face Lee, Johnson, Siddle, and Clark and scored a first class hundred, which should be more relevant towards a test selection anyways.

[spectre]

Yeah, in those matches he got out to Afridi, Voges, and Bollinger - red hot pace bowlers. Regarding Pakistan's pace attack at Centurion, facing Roach and Tonge on the pacy Wanderers track was much more challenging. Never mind the fact that his mindset has improved as well since. He did face Lee, Johnson, Siddle, and Clark and scored a first class hundred, which should be more relevant towards a test selection anyways.

When has playing pace bowling alone became a parameter for a test berth. We are talking about good bowling units and not to which bowler they got out getting out to the first set of bowlers is a bigger concern that against the second set

[The Outsider]

When has playing pace bowling alone became a parameter for a test berth. We are talking about good bowling units and not to which bowler they got out getting out to the first set of bowlers is a bigger concern that against the second set

Why don't you lay down the parameters for a test berth then? Logic would say : 1. Domestic performance, with more emphasis on high visibility matches. 2. First Class performance with more emphasis on runs against strong bowling attacks. 3. Ability to score big runs and build an innings. 4. Technical suitability for test matches 5. Temperament and ability to improve shortcomings quickly. 6. Performance in ODIs. Anything I've missed here? On most counts Kohli clearly scores over Raina.

[spectre]

Why don't you lay down the parameters for a test berth then? Logic would say : 1. Domestic performance, with more emphasis on high visibility matches. 2. First Class performance with more emphasis on runs against strong bowling attacks. 3. Ability to score big runs and build an innings. 4. Technical suitability for test matches 5. Temperament and ability to improve shortcomings quickly. 6. Performance in ODIs. Anything I've missed here? On most counts Kohli clearly scores over Raina.

I wont argue with u on first 2 points, my knowledge on first class cricket is very less 3. Hasnt Raina done that over a period of time, when he came at the top If Kohli comes as No.6, do you expect him to build innings and make big scores or play blinders (ODIs pov) 4. Again its personal opinion, for me Raina is technically very good (except for short ball chinky) Kohli has much bigger problems in prodding outside the off stump, getting out caught behind or slips, aint that a poor technique as well 5. Wait till Kohlis weaknesses are exposed and we can see how quickly he improves 6. Raina stands tall here, no arguments

[The Outsider]

I wont argue with u on first 2 points, my knowledge on first class cricket is very less 3. Hasnt Raina done that over a period of time, when he came at the top If Kohli comes as No.6, do you expect him to build innings and make big scores or play blinders (ODIs pov) 4. Again its personal opinion, for me Raina is technically very good (except for short ball chinky) Kohli has much bigger problems in prodding outside the off stump, getting out caught behind or slips, aint that a poor technique as well 5. Wait till Kohlis weaknesses are exposed and we can see how quickly he improves 6. Raina stands tall here, no arguments

First class cricket and performance against good attacks there has to form a major criteria for selection in tests. 3. Not really, Raina averages around 30 batting in the top 4. Only recently after 3-4 years of international cricket has he shown the ability to build an innings like his 68 against Australia or the century against Sri Lanka. Kohli has learned very quickly in that respect. Even so, he hasn't been able to transfer that into the longer version by playing a long innings in domestic cricket. 4. Yeah, I agree technically Kohli has a problem outside the off stump with his bat swing coming from the third slip region. But here again, he has learned and rectified that very quickly. He has been playing a lot straighter over the last couple of months. 5. He has already shown very quick improvement in both the ability to build an innings, not throw it away, and improving his bat swing. 6. Yeah, Raina's contribution in ODIs has been much more and specially off late he has become a much improved player. He always had the shots and now is becoming a very calculated and complete ODI batsman.

[Chandan]

Why don't you lay down the parameters for a test berth then? Logic would say : 1. Domestic performance, with more emphasis on high visibility matches. 2. First Class performance with more emphasis on runs against strong bowling attacks. 3. Ability to score big runs and build an innings. 4. Technical suitability for test matches 5. Temperament and ability to improve shortcomings quickly. 6. Performance in ODIs. Anything I've missed here? On most counts Kohli clearly scores over Raina.

Why should performance in ODIs be a criteria for test births? We all know that white ball behaves differently from the red ball, bowlers bowl differently in a test match where there is not much restriction on them, stopping the run is the chief motive of bowlers in ODIs whereas taking wickets is their only objective in tests. You just can't compare the two formats. Had ODIs been a criteria, Dravid would never have got a test birth back in '96.

[youngindia]

Just a few ODIs into his career' date=' he has learned all the good things like rotating the strike, timing an assault, seeing out the better bowlers. Things which can take players up to 40-50 ODIs to master..[/quote'] against any significantly stronger attack, he has failed. australia and pakistan were the two hostile attacks he confronted so far. he has not touched 40.

he is just a cut above the rest of the competition. That special talent and personality, which you somehow sense is just not going to fail.

not true. no substantiation.

For starters, there is no evidence that he can build and play long innings against any attack forget about top international attacks. .

This is hilarious. There cannot be evidence for that because they have to learn it in tests. Playing long knocks in tests is not easy. FC records are no evidence of that. Hayden made his one day debut way back in 1993, premier domestic bat. Had on off career with australia until 2001, 8 years after his international debut. Martyn made debut in 1994.didn't establish himself back until 2001. Langer in 1992.didn't establish himself until 2001. steve waugh debut in 1985. In the 1991 indian tour of australia, he was not in the test side. gambhir one day debut in 2003 and domestic performer. didn't establish himself until SL 2008. laxman debut in 1996 and domestic performer. didn't establish himself until aus 2001. gavaskar made 774 runs in his first series.didn't make another hundred till 1974. azhar three hundreds in his first 3 test. didn't have another good series vs a strong side until pak 1987. Players have long struggled to establish themselves as a consistent test performer ,especially when they debut under 25.

6 First class centuries in 50 odd games is mediocre to say the least, so is an average in the early 40s.

viv richards. average in late 20's and one hundred in county. period- debut in india 1974. 7 runs in his first test. case closed.

[youngindia]

3. Not really, Raina averages around 30 batting in the top 4. Only recently after 3-4 years of international cricket has he shown the ability to build an innings like his 68 against Australia or the century against Sri Lanka. Kohli has learned very quickly in that respect. .

There is no evidence of kohli building an innings against a significantly strong attack. Its not going to happen anytime soon either. he will score occasionally at best.

3. Not really, Raina averages around 30 batting in the top 4. Only recently after 3-4 years of international cricket has he shown the ability to build an innings like his 68 against Australia or the century against Sri Lanka.

Actually that progress is pretty impressive.he has been a very quick learner.

kohli has learned very quickly in that respect. Even so, he hasn't been able to transfer that into the longer version by playing a long innings in domestic cricket. .

overreaction. 1. Sl depleted of senior bowlers. 2. Dew 3. bangladesh. 4. asian conditions

[youngindia]

Why should performance in ODIs be a criteria for test births?

The invaluable experience of having faced international bowlers.Picking them ,reading them and getting used to the pace. that does count There are some aspects that cannot be provided by one dayers. attacking fields ,leaving balls outside off and stern examination of technique. but still there are valuable lessons to be learnt rather go straight into the cauldron.

[youngindia]

FC cricket, A tours are all important. but only as part of a learning process. if player has not performed optimally. but has laid a strong foundation for the future, he still would have done well. its how much you work on your game is impottant. THE SELECTORS have to keep a tab on the progress made by the players in their game, the issues to be worked upon and a action item for the future. however looking at numbers in these games will be not too productive msot times. they have failed innumerable times.

[The Outsider]

against any significantly stronger attack, he has failed. australia and pakistan were the two hostile attacks he confronted so far. he has not touched 40.

Talk about exaggeration and hyperbole! Hostile attacks? ROTFLMAO! Pakistan attack at Centurion was hostile compared to Roach and Tonge at Wanderers? And against Australia, it wasn't that he was uncomfortable against the pace. He got out to Voges on one occasion when well settled in.

This is hilarious. There cannot be evidence for that because they have to learn it in tests. Playing long knocks in tests is not easy. FC records are no evidence of that.

Oh really? How about you name 10 top class international batsmen in the 130 year history of cricket who have had mediocre First Class records if First Class cricket is no evidence of the ability to play and build long innings? The next part of your post is what can be called hilarious, but I will go into it only after you can give me 10 successful batsmen at the test level in the history of the game out of what something like 2000 players to have played international cricket with mediocre First Class records.