Enough reasons to send Ishant back to domestic?

[Dhondy]

Chandan, do you agree with me that the cupboard is bare, if a mediocre Ishant and an unfit Sreesanth are fighting it out for our Test XI?

[Chandan]

Cupboard is bare Dhondy as far as bowling is concerned in tests. But at the same I'll say that these bowlers can become quite a handful in helpful conditions, like say Wanderers this year or Lords last year. In that case our bowling is not much different from other country's seam bowling reserves. Steyn looked a different kind of bowler at Nagpur on the unhelpful track but was struggling today on the track which had decent bounce, carry and where you could even get swing in the first session and the final session. So if a champion bowler like him can get his rhythm disrupted within days, Ishant is just a novice. I'll tell you give him some time. Same with Mishra too. A leggie can't be effective being defensive. In the series against Australia, he was far more attacking. I'll prefer to keep him away from ODIs as well and play as many FC matches as he can. For test cricket, our bowling reserves are thin, no doubt. But isn't it the same way everywhere else? Just look at Ntini's replacement. The 20 year bowler is so inconsistent. But the captain is taking good care of him by not pressurizing him much. Young bowlers need to be looked after. I hope someone looks after our young bowlers as well.

[msb1991]

^^ What about the Lanka series' date=' where he bowled the match changing spell at Kanpur?[/quote'] The spell wasn't all that fantastic, itbt. A couple of the wickets were off wide deliveries which kept low and regardless, I made it clear that he had done little (NOT NOTHING) of note in Test cricket and he could not even bowl competantly in the second innings. If he is to be our Test option in India, he should be able to take wickets consistently for Kerala.

[Chandan]

It makes no sense to me to keep Sreesanth around the Test scene for home Tests. He has never lit the sky alight for Kerala and they play in the Plate League! Moreover' date=' he has done little in Test cricket (not nothing, but little), full stop, other than the South Africa tour and playing the role of third best seamer against England.[/quote'] Who would you choose as your third seamer then for tests in India, along with Zaheer and Ishant?

[msb1991]

Chandan' date=' do you agree with me that the cupboard is bare, if a mediocre Ishant and an unfit Sreesanth are fighting it out for our Test XI?[/quote'] It is not so bare, the selectors' unwillingness to try out new talent makes it seem that way. Mithun, R Vinay Kumar and Ablish all took over 35 wickets in the Ranji Super League, this year. IKP took 22 wickets at 18.54, a piece and RP completed the season unhindered by injury with 27 wickets at 33.00.

[msb1991]

Who would you choose as your third seamer then for tests in India' date=' along with Zaheer and Ishant?[/quote'] I'd look to always play two spinners unless conditions vehemently suggest otherwise, but the third in my pecking order would be R Vinay Kumar or perhaps IKP.

[Chandan]

R Vinay Kumar for tests? You must be joking! Didn't you see how the South Africans hammered him in the BP XI match? Third seamer is picked in the squad of XIV or XV from which captain and coach can finalise the XI. You always have to have that seamer ready and match fit.

[msb1991]

R Vinay Kumar for tests? You must be joking! Didn't you see how the South Africans hammered him in the BP XI match? Third seamer is picked in the squad of XIV or XV from which captain and coach can finalise the XI. You always have to have that seamer ready and match fit.

Fair enough about what you mean by third seamer. However, I am not joking about Vinay Kumar for Tests, he has performed consistently well for several years in the domestic circuit and is certainly not too slow for Test level, operating at 130kph. In the tour game, he had 0/33 off 13, which is not getting hammered - but I do concede I couldn't watch the game. Moreover, tbf, he was the most economical of the bowlers (except Nayar who bowled 2-0-5-0) and, of the other pacers, Yadav and Gony also did not take wickets and Mithun only took one.

[Chandan]

In the tour game' date=' he had 0/33 off 13, which is not getting hammered - but I do concede I couldn't watch the game. Moreover, tbf, he was the most economical of the bowlers (except Nayar who bowled 2-0-5-0) and, [b']of the other pacers, Yadav and Gony also did not take wickets and Mithun only took one.

Says enough about the domestic stalwarts, isn't it? Mithun was quite impressive in his two spells however didn't have enough stamina to keep up the intensity for 6-7 overs. Apart from Mithun, these guys won't buy a wicket for their living at the international level.

[msb1991]

Says enough about the domestic stalwarts, isn't it? Mithun was quite impressive in his two spells however didn't have enough stamina to keep up the intensity for 6-7 overs. Apart from Mithun, these guys won't buy a wicket for their living at the international level.

I have no idea what Yadav was doing there. If he troubles Dravid and Laxman at his best, then why would you pick him when he is not troubling Plate League batsman, that one really made no sense. Gony had a good season for Punjab and probably earnt his place, though I'm interested to know why he got in over Ablish, who had a slightly better season for Punjab, if only for virtue of playing more often. Is Ablish a bit of a 120kph trundler? It is a strong thing to say that RVK cannot buy an international wicket, I'm interested to know why you think that. I do concede that most of what I've seen of him has been in the IPL and I've only managed to stream the odd clip of him in FC or OD cricket over the years. He did take 7 wickets in the Duleep Trophy semi final, including Kaif, Bangar and Naman Ojha (not quite international class, but known not to be totally hopeless) and so a higher level doesn't appear to deter him.

[msb1991]

Says enough about the domestic stalwarts' date=' isn't it?[/quote'] Just on this point, I do not think it is accurate to call Gony and Yadav domestic stalwarts, each has just one good season under their belt. RVK, Bose and Aggy would be the truely experienced fast bowlers in our circuit - would be interested how those three would do when pitted against a strong opposition in a series, but I doubt it'll happen, with Bose suddenly out of favour and Aggy's time having come and gone.

[yoda]

Ishant can use a break, may be a county stint or whatever Zak did a few years ago to get back in form. I would play Sree, RPS and Mithun ahead of him.

[msb1991]

Ishant can use a break' date=' may be a county stint or whatever Zak did a few years ago to get back in form.[/quote'] He'll need a whole season to reap some noticable rewards. I do not think there is an open spot for him in any county and I also do not think that management will let him go for that long without wanting him in an ODI, T20 or Test.

[msb1991]

I would play Sree' date=' RPS and Mithun ahead of him.[/quote'] Sree, who has never put a good season together for Kerala, RP Singh who was out performed in the domestic season by Shivastava/P Kumar and Mithun who has had one good season, just like Sangwan/Dhawal/Tyagi/Gony, had?

[Chandan]

I have no idea what Yadav was doing there. If he troubles Dravid and Laxman at his best, then why would you pick him when he is not troubling Plate League batsman, that one really made no sense. Gony had a good season for Punjab and probably earnt his place, though I'm interested to know why he got in over Ablish, who had a slightly better season for Punjab, if only for virtue of playing more often. Is Ablish a bit of a 120kph trundler? It is a strong thing to say that RVK cannot buy an international wicket, I'm interested to know why you think that. I do concede that most of what I've seen of him has been in the IPL and I've only managed to stream the odd clip of him in FC or OD cricket over the years. He did take 7 wickets in the Duleep Trophy semi final, including Kaif, Bangar and Naman Ojha (not quite international class, but known not to be totally hopeless) and so a higher level doesn't appear to deter him.

I watched him in every match that was telecast and he didn't impress me--is quite mediocre if I become a bit harsh on him. But that is how it is. But I see a good future for Mithun. He just needs to finetune his action a bit because as many experts noticed, it might lead him to serious injuries. I'm no expert in bowling actions and hence I'm not even in a position to analyse what is that is at fault. But I liked his bowling.

[msb1991]

I watched him in every match that was telecast and he didn't impress me--is quite mediocre if I become a bit harsh on him.

Would genuinely like you to elaborate - I have always thought of him as a good potential international bowler, having seen his speed and the fact that he takes FC wickets for fun and rarely gets injured. Out of interest, how does he get his wickets and why will this not translate over to international level.

But that is how it is. But I see a good future for Mithun. He just needs to finetune his action a bit because as many experts noticed, it might lead him serious injuries. I'm no expert in bowling actions and hence I'm not even in a position to analyse what is that is at fault. But I liked his bowling.

Have read about Mithun's potential and very vaguely recall him timing high speeds in his IPL game. However, I am reluctant to get excited considering the sheer number of Indian pacers who have strong first (/second/third) domestic seasons and fizzle out after that (Dhawal/Tyagi/Sangwan all had good seasons recently followed by poor ones).

[Dhondy]

Chandan, one way to look at whether fresh talent is coming through is to see how many of them secure their place in the XI. If you take a notional time period for a side and look at the turnover of players during that period, it informs the pressure on the national side from domestic aspirants. It indicates the pool of young players available to the national side. It may be argued however that the low turnover of certain sides is because it has great players who have held their place. This could certainly be true, but equally it might be more accurate to say that these players have remained in the side because the replacements were not ready. And if the team was really stable with a core set of players, then it follows that there should be less debutants than equivalently placed sides over the same time period. With those caveats in mind, I looked at the three top sides in the last decade, starting 1st January 2001. The first thing that stood out is the similarity in the number of capped players across sides. India has awarded 30 caps, Australia 29 and South Africa 29. I then looked at the number of players who have secured their place in the present side. Since "secured" is a highly debatable criterion, I put the qualifier as players who have featured in 3 consecutive Tests in a single series on the last occasion that their team featured in one (minimum 3 Test series), and are/were part of the last series played by these nations as well. You could put in different qualifiers- such as including players who have not been dropped in the last couple of series except due to injury- it will make very little difference. And that's where the similarity between the 3 sides ends. India have only 3 "new" players who have stood the test of time- Sehwag, Dhoni and Gambhir. Australia have 10- Katich, Clarke, Hauritz, Watson, Hussey, Johnson, Haddin, Siddle, Bollinger, North. In fact, the only player who hasn't been turned over over the last decade is the skipper- Ponting. South Africa have 8 - Prince, Smith, Amla, De Villiers, Steyn, M Morkel, Harris, and Duminy. You draw your own conclusions. India caps young players at the same rate as other nations. Yet, very few of them pass the test of time, while the other top sides have turned over almost completely, with youngsters replacing ageing stars regularly and holding their place in the side. There could be two interpretations of this. First, that the Indian side is like a monolith. Established players are difficult, almost impossible to get rid of. The second, and the more likely explanation is that the pool of talent coming through domestic cricket is so mediocre, that very few new entrants have what it takes to knock the established players off their perch.

[Chandan]

Would genuinely like you to elaborate -

Can't elaborate msb. I'll prefer him to play an Irani trophy with at least Indian internationals on the other side. But Karnataka losing the the Ranji final won't make that happen either

Have read about Mithun's potential and very vaguely recall him timing high speeds in his IPL game. However, I am reluctant to get excited considering the sheer number of Indian pacers who have strong first (/second/third) domestic seasons and fizzle out after that (Dhawal/Tyagi/Sangwan all had good seasons recently followed by poor ones).

I'm not overexcited either. Dhawal never looked like an international bowler despite taking bucketloads of wicket. Sangwan looks extremely ordinary these days. I won't say that Tyagi fizzled out. He is yet to play another full domestic season.

[Lord]

i liked him.atleast he was being aggresive n concentrating on speeds.i would keep him in tests so that he can start bowling at pace regularly.the accuracy will come back the last thing i would want the selectors is to pick him n for that matter Sree for ODIs n make them bowl slower deliveries n completely screwing them up again

[msb1991]

Can't elaborate msb. I'll prefer him to play an Irani trophy with at least Indian internationals on the other side. But Karnataka losing the the Ranji final won't make that happen either

Okay.

I'm not overexcited either. Dhawal never looked like an international bowler despite taking bucketloads of wicket. Sangwan looks extremely ordinary these days. I won't say that Tyagi fizzled out. He is yet to play another full domestic season.

Ooh, I'm not too sure about your judgement about Dhawal. His season this year was disappointing rather than poor, but I think he looks an international class bowler. He reminds me a bit of Mohammad Asif and slightly less of Glenn Mcgrath in that he is a seam bowler of medium pace who gets a fair bit out of the track from back of a length or a good length. I don't think Sangwan looks too special, tbh. Regarding Tyagi, I think he has certainly fizzled out in First Class cricket. I hope to see him remain in the ODI scene, but in First Class cricket, the numbers speak for themselves and with 207.2 overs there after 2007/8, that is hardly one or two poor games.