The Tendulkar Fatigue Syndrome

[TSAG_RGB]

Vortex, I think I have conclusively shown that Sachin never dominated any great pace bowler during his career. He was dominated and intimidated by them, chose the safety first approach, and was still dismissed by them many, many times. His career runs against them wouldn't fill one side of a scoresheet. In fact, it's fair to say that the likes of McGrath, Donald and Shoaib owned Sachin. Now live with it.

:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:

[Dhondy]

Perhaps you may be so kind as to explain why exactly Sachin was absolutely required to dominate these bowlers? Match scores are a sum effect of the subjective situation of each corresponding game. This meaningless lumping together does not really help gain a perspective.

You cannot win against a reasonably good side that possesses a great fast bowler without dominating that bowler. It works the same way for batsmen. if you let him away, he'll destroy you. Bowlers like McGrath and Donald have always known this and consistently targeted the best batsman in the opposition and delivered. That's why nobody disputes their greatness. Batsmen have shown it too- Sehwag at Multan v Shoaib, Pietersen in Ashes 2005 v McGrath, Glichrist in SA v Donald, Lara at Bridgetown v McGrath, Laxman at Kolkata v McGrath... Sometimes you dominate the best and still can't win, like Vaughan found out in the Ashes in Australia, where he was wonderful against McGrath. But if you can't impose your mark on the opposition's best bowler, and if he is an all time great to boot, and if he is part of a decent side, you have absolutely no chance. He'll destroy everything around you, and eventually he'll get you too. That is one of the reasons why, despite Tendulkar's many tons and myriad records, India never won anything against the better sides.

[CSK Fan]

We don't give a jot if it's Sachin or anybody else. We looked hard, as we always do, found the unvarnished truth and presented it. If it had suited your POV, you would have smiled and agreed. Because it doesn't, you are suddenly a stats sceptic. That's OK. We have seen this many many times here.

Dhondy please dont take the holier than thou attitude. Its becoming more and more clear how unbiased your view really are. You are deliberately trying to look for all avenues to put down Sachin and using stats from the period he was at his worst form to prove this

[thevortex]

You cannot win against a reasonably good side that possesses a great fast bowler without dominating that bowler. It works the same way for batsmen. if you let him away, he'll destroy you. Bowlers like McGrath and Donald have always known this and consistently targeted the best batsman in the opposition and delivered. That's why nobody disputes their greatness. Batsmen have shown it too- Sehwag at Multan v Shoaib, Pietersen in Ashes 2005 v McGrath, Glichrist in SA v Donald, Lara at Bridgetown v McGrath, Laxman at Kolkata v McGrath... Sometimes you dominate the best and still can't win, like Vaughan found out in the Ashes in Australia, where he was wonderful against McGrath. But if you can't impose your mark on the opposition's best bowler, and if he is an all time great to boot, and if he is part of a decent side, you have absolutely no chance. He'll destroy everything around you, and eventually he'll get you too. That is one of the reasons why, despite Tendulkar's many tons and myriad records, India never won anything against the better sides.

Right, Tendulkar is expected to win matches for the team? Why dont we ever remember that it is team performance which matters. Not individuals'. If you look up all those Tests which you quoted, they would not be missing significant contributions either from other bowlers or batsmen. And that is something which should not be missed. This bit about Tendulkar not winning matches for his team has to be the most overused and anachronistic (moreover inaccurate) cliche in modern cricket!

[CSK Fan]

dhondy you have not acknolwdged that Sachin has an average of 42 in the matches he played against Sohaib. Your stats also dont have Sachins scores of 196*, 82* and 56* he scored against Sohaib

[CSK Fan]

Right, Tendulkar is expected to win matches for the team? Why dont we ever remember that it is team performance which matters. Not individuals'. If you look up all those Tests which you quoted, they would not be missing significant contributions either from other bowlers or batsmen. And that is something which should not be missed. This bit about Tendulkar not winning matches for his team has to be the most overused and anachronistic (moreover inaccurate) cliche in modern cricket!

what is more funny is that Sachin's contribution in wins(%) have been more than the much dominating, fast bowlers nemisis Sehwag

[thevortex]

dhondy you have not acknolwdged that Sachin has an average of 42 in the matches he played against Sohaib. Your stats also dont have Sachins scores of 196*' date=' 82* and 56* he scored against Sohaib[/quote'] Oh my! And here I was taking those stats at face value. Great spot, My two cents. Really, it does not matter to me how many runs a batsman scores against a particular bowler as long as he scores runs against that team and others pretty consistently.

[Sachinism]

You cannot win against a reasonably good side that possesses a great fast bowler without dominating that bowler. It works the same way for batsmen. if you let him away, he'll destroy you. Bowlers like McGrath and Donald have always known this and consistently targeted the best batsman in the opposition and delivered. That's why nobody disputes their greatness. Batsmen have shown it too- Sehwag at Multan v Shoaib, Pietersen in Ashes 2005 v McGrath, Glichrist in SA v Donald, Lara at Bridgetown v McGrath, Laxman at Kolkata v McGrath... Sometimes you dominate the best and still can't win, like Vaughan found out in the Ashes in Australia, where he was wonderful against McGrath. But if you can't impose your mark on the opposition's best bowler, and if he is an all time great to boot, and if he is part of a decent side, you have absolutely no chance. He'll destroy everything around you, and eventually he'll get you too. That is one of the reasons why, despite Tendulkar's many tons and myriad records, India never won anything against the better sides.

:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: Good joke At times teams are better off playing off a good bowler and taking runs off the others. At the end of the day its the team cause that matters not his personal record. Whats funny is if Sachin scores runs he's called selfish and accused of playing for records If he plays out a bowler and doesn't score runs, then he didn't dominate, as suddenly thats what matters. I think cricinfo missed out that part in their records section, someone quickly contact them so they can add the domination index

[Gunner_Mania]

Here are some stark statistics for your scrutiny. Against Australia as a whole, Lara averaged 51.00. That average dropped only slightly- to 46.38 for matches when McGrath was around- a 9% drop to Sachin's 35% decline. What about the other enduring great of this generation? Kallis averages 40.58 against Australia, far less than Sachin's overall Australia specific average, but against McGrath, that average hardly alters- 40.47. Thus, not only does Lara and Kallis' performance suffer less v McGrath than Sachin relative to when he is not around, but in absolute terms, they average more than him. It seems that Sachin maximised his run tally versus the Aussies when McGrath wasn't present. Could be a statistical quirk, of course.

Here is some statistics for you, when another great of the McGrath era - Shane Warne played SRT statistics goes from 55.56 (his overall) or 56.08 (vs Aus) to 60.45 when Warne played BCL statistics goes from 52.08 (his overall) or 51.00 (vs Aus) to 54.02 when Warne played Kallis statistics goes from 54.76 (his overall) or 39.52 (vs Aus) to 36.83 when Warne played And for the record the Kallis average of 40.58 against Australia that you mention is including his 83 in one match for the iCC XI. His average for SA v Aus is 39.52.

[saneindian]

Can we please look at Punter's record when he plays against any team with Bhajji in it, anyone? Statsguru isn't working at my end.

[Karan114]

Can we please look at Punter's record when he plays against any team with Bhajji in it, anyone? Statsguru isn't working at my end.

542 runs in 12 Tests at an average of 25.8 (2 centuries and 3 fifties)

[mhr123]

Can we please look at Punter's record when he plays against any team with Bhajji in it, anyone? Statsguru isn't working at my end.

 Span        	Mat  	Runs  	HS  	 Bat Av  	100  	
1998-2008 	12 	542 	 140     25.80 	        2 	

http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/7133.html?class=1;filter=advanced;opposition=6;orderby=default;player_involve=7139;template=results;type=allround

[The Outsider]

Since this thread has long since meandered into nothingness, here is my little contribution : Lara vs. Kumble

Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s	
1990-2006	131	232	6	11953	400*	52.88	19753	60.51	34	48	17	1559	88
1994-2006	14	24	0	804	120	33.50	1527	52.65	2	4	3	83	6	

[saneindian]

542 runs in 12 Tests at an average of 25.8 (2 centuries and 3 fifties)

Thanks mate!

[Roshanrocks]

Since this thread has long since meandered into nothingness, here is my little contribution : Lara vs. Kumble

Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s	
1990-2006	131	232	6	11953	400*	52.88	19753	60.51	34	48	17	1559	88
1994-2006	14	24	0	804	120	33.50	1527	52.65	2	4	3	83	6	

superrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr even kumble is agreat bowler

[CSK Fan]

Since this thread has long since meandered into nothingness, here is my little contribution : Lara vs. Kumble

Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s	
1990-2006	131	232	6	11953	400*	52.88	19753	60.51	34	48	17	1559	88
1994-2006	14	24	0	804	120	33.50	1527	52.65	2	4	3	83	6	

So, out of 232 matches he played, he faced Kumble in only 24 of those and avoided him in the rest of the matches? So he got a great average of 50+ only by avoiding great bowlers like Kumble

[Gunner_Mania]

So' date=' out of 232 [s']matches he played, he faced Kumble in only 24 of those and avoided him in the rest of the matches? So he got a great average of 50+ only by avoiding great bowlers like Kumble

innings

[rabinjackman]

Sachin has been dismissed wierdly against the aussies a few times here's one of them, the ball was short but didnt bounce.... thats bad luck.... mRuORWYtbzA&feature=PlayList&p=4333EF4B94AC9198&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=48

[rabinjackman]

here is a run out dismissal against pakistan , where shoaib was present.... freak run out mYZELkEmB1I another freak dismissal against the aussies where the ball bounced off a fielder... Ricky ponting took an awesome catch.... A82awnMlKvM anoher controversial decision vs Shane Warne when Ten scored 60 odd q3rtn3LVio8 so atleast 4 occasions sachin lost his wicket.... NOT due to the bowlers.... must search for more...

[Roshanrocks]

interesting argument going on here