Was Dennis Lillee really that great?

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[Mr. Wicket]

meh. i see your overhype article and i shall one-up you to infinity. Wisden Almanack, 1987. Nineteen years of age at the season's start, Hick was the first to make 1,000 first-class runs. A tall, broad, white-hatted wielder of a Duncan Fearnley blade, like Crowe, he went on to become one of two to score 2,000 runs, and thereby claimed another title: that of being, at twenty, the youngest batsman to reach this figure in an English season. Len Hutton was 21 when he did so in 1937. It is hard to think there have been many better players at his age than Graeme Hick. From the start he has been a prodigy. Born on May 23, 1966 in Harare, Zimbabwe, or Salisbury, Rhodesia, as the capital then was, Hick was six years and eight months old when he made his first century, with his own bat and without a box as he remembers. His 105 not out was scored against Mangula Junior School, and it contained 24 4s, the ball travelling quickly over a hard bush ground short of grass. His father, John Hick, had twice represented the district of Mashonaland as a middle-order batsman; he had already taken his son into Salisbury to watch Graeme Pollock bat in Currie Cup matches. But the schoolboy Hick, able at tennis, athletics and hockey (he came to play for the national schools team), did not give particular attention to cricket at first. He simply bowled his high, turning off-breaks for Banket Junior School in 1975-- and took 115 wickets for 347 runs, at an average of 3.02 each! As an opening batsman he had made no more than half-a-dozen hundreds by 1979, when he dropped to number three in the Prince Edward High School Under-14 team and served notice of his exceptional talent. That year he acquired the habit of making large, undefeated centuries, and averaged 185 for his school. The following year, 1980, when living at the family home on the Trelawney tobacco-farming estate, he was found to have meningitis in its milder form. The delay was considerable, but the path already established. For the rest of his schooldays Hick ascended through the various grades: from the national Junior Schools team (of which he was captain), to the Fawns, to the Senior Schools side. So rapid was the progress that at seventeen, while still at school, Hick was selected as a member of the Zimbabwe World Cup party of 1983-- the youngest player to have been selected for that country, or for a World Cup tournament. In 1984 he went to Worcestershire on a Zimbabwe Cricket Union scholarship: at the season's end he was allowed a Championship début against Surrey and had made 82 when time expired. In 1985, for Worcestershire and the touring Zimbabweans, he scored 1,265 runs at 52.70. His county, needless to say, were happy to preside over the growth of an extraordinary skill. They were especially impressed by the hungry way in which Hick approached his batting, often reaching the crease before the dismissed batsman had dragged himself from the field; by the orthodoxy and straightness of his style, tainted only by the steer through gully that has been forced upon so many by one-day cricket; by his strength, which he has developed through weight-lifting and is the strength of an amiable giant; by his pursuit of excellence, which somehow seems more attainable for a colonial than for someone bred in England; and by his method against short-pitched bowling. Hick pulls along the ground in front of square leg if he plays a shot-- no top-edged hooking down to fine leg. He began last season in fine form, having rewritten a few records at home during the winter. Ireland, touring Zimbabwe, had complained that they were not meeting good enough cricketers, and Hick was called in from his coaching duties around the schools. In a one-day game against Ireland he hit 155 not out (nine 6s, thirteen 4s) in 116 minutes. The next day, a three-day match began against them and Hick was 112 not out overnight. The following day he went on to 309 in less than seven hours (the next highest score was 58). His was the highest ever innings for Zimbabwe, or Rhodesia, or against Ireland. Back with Worcestershire, centuries flowed like the Severn: two came in the Benson and Hedges Cup, bringing Gold Awards, and six in the Championship. He considered the double-century at Neath was the most enjoyable, the best being the one against Gloucestershire on an uneven wicket at Worcester, when he took some bruises from Courtney Walsh and David Lawrence. Essex were the only other county to choose a batsman regularly as their one overseas player. Neither should Hick's capacious handed slip-catching be forgotten, nor the potential of those off-breaks. By the end of the season the question centred not on whether Hick was a great batsman in the making but on which country he would represent. Not Zimbabwe: reluctantly, yet understandably, Hick decided to sever the link with his native land in order to prove himself in Test cricket. New Zealand have sounded him out, offering a four-year qualification period. He was told that he could play for England only in 1991, after ten year's residence. By then many more runs will surely have flowed beneath the bridge besides New Road. 20+ years later... 65 tests and an average of 31.32 (yes... 31.32, and a century every 10.8 tests, compared to Bell's 1 in 5 tests) - mashallah, they waz pwned?

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[Mr. Wicket]

Not done yet though Boss... having too much fun going over some of these old Pommy jerkfests. "Harmison is a different prospect now from the erratic, sweaty-palmed tearaway who first gangled into the England dressing-room. A settled team spirit has helped, as has having his close friends Andrew Flintoff, Paul Collingwood and Simon Jones on board. He now feels this is his home. He has also gained the trust of his captain, Michael Vaughan, who was happy to let him loose with an attacking seven-two field and a whole lot of green on the leg side. And Harmison didn't let him down. From the off, he was bouncing in with a spring in his step. He ruffled some big feathers in the first innings, and that helped set him up for his magnificent seven this morning. Where at times before he lacked that lethal mixture of aggression and accuracy, it was there today in abundance. He didn't get carried away as the ball flew head-high, but kept his length just right. It was not dissimilar to Curtly Ambrose, with whom Harmison has been compared to before. " orrr.... "The talent is the thing. Always the talent. [Note from Wicky; damn that sounds like a padosee writing!] If the gift is authentic it's easier to ignore the peripheral ringing of tills and vacuous celebrity chatter. On that front, Pietersen struck 473 runs in five Tests against Australia. This, after "KP" - as in the nuts - had recorded an average in 23 one-day internationals of 73.09. These are the figures of a resoundingly good cricketer. The ICC anointed him both Emerging Player and One-Day Player of the Year. His belligerent and fearless innings at The Oval lit the imagination's touchpaper way beyond cricket. His team-mate Ashley Giles observed: "It was real grandchildren stuff. `Gather round and I'll tell you about that innings I played with Pietersen, with the white stripes and the earrings.'" In the ensuing tide of English euphoria it was swiftly forgotten that KP had been dropped three times, most calamitously by Shane Warne, his Hampshire colleague and friend. That simple error turned Pietersen into a household name and millionaire. Sport's soundtrack is the music of chance. The 158 may be a landmark Pietersen will never surpass. "Yes, I do think about that sometimes," he says. "But nothing I did that day was more important than us winning the Ashes. It was all about us winning the Ashes." and not done yet... here's another classic :phehehe: " Michael Vaughan was 13 years old when Doug Padgett first clapped eyes on him. It was lunchtime at Abbeydale Park, Sheffield. Padgett, who was the Yorkshire coach at the time, was on the dressing-room balcony gazing at the boys knocking up on the outfield. Michael Vaughan was 13 years old when Doug Padgett first clapped eyes on him. It was lunchtime at Abbeydale Park, Sheffield. Padgett, who was the Yorkshire coach at the time, was on the dressing-room balcony gazing at the boys knocking up on the outfield. He cannot remember if he was drinking a cup of tea at the time. Probably not, though, because what he saw might have prompted him to spill it over the railing. Here was this scrawny kid batting against his mates with a soft ball. They were only knocking around for fun, as kids used to do on outfields everywhere, but Padgett knew he had something. Everything that the 28-year-old Vaughan has achieved this year, the coach was probably imagining as he went down the steps to speak to the boy. "I can't remember who we were playing except it was in the Championship, but I've never forgotten him," said Padgett. "There was just something about him as soon as he caught your eye. There wasn't an ounce on him, but he wasn't like the other lads. He wasn't just swatting at the ball the way we do when we're young and trying to hit it as far as possible. He had a balance that made him stand out, and he brought the bat down straight instead of trying to whack it across the line." No sooner had he reached the outfield, though, than Padgett's dreams were shattered. "I found out then he had been born in Lancashire. Quite honestly I was so taken with him that I thought, '****'." But it did not prevent Padgett mentioning the boy to his mates at Lancashire. This boy was too special for club parochialism; the world deserved to see him. But Lancashire were slow on the uptake. Two years later, Yorkshire at last ended the tradition of relying solely on players born within the county boundaries. Padgett had not forgotten the scrawny kid – "You wouldn't" – and the county wrote to him inviting him to a place at their academy. There was an imponderable, there always is with talented youth. But Vaughan swiftly demonstrated that he had the right temperament: he was unflustered. "He could hardly hit the ball off the square, but it didn't worry him and I certainly wasn't bothered," Padgett recalled. "He still had that balance and he was so willing to learn and he learnt quickly. Michael took no coaching." In 1991, Padgett gave Vaughan his first outing in the county's second team. He was still a thin kid who could not hit the ball, and Padgett still was not bothered. There is an affecting calm about Vaughan: it is reflected in his initial stillness at the crease. And it emerged the first time he went out to bat for England in a Test match, against South Africa in Johannesburg in late 1999. England were 0 for 2 and pretty soon 2 for 4, but for all Vaughan showed the openers might have put on 300. If he has not quite made light of the recurring injuries that have dogged his career, nor has he made a fuss. He has been carrying a dodgy knee around Australia, but it has not prevented him being comfortably England's best batsman. This year has witnessed the inexorable elevation of Vaughan to a batsman of world class, officially sixth in the PwC Rankings, behind Sachin Tendulkar but ahead of Brian Lara. He has advanced almost by the innings, the style seeps from his strokes now and the ball fairly sizzles to the fence these days."

[thevortex]

I fail to understand what you are going on about Mr. Wicket/Bossbhai! If it is about overhyped cricketers who did not make it, surely we are going to find such examples in Indian cricket too. I dont see anything wrong in saying that Harmison could have become the next Ambrose. He had the ingredients. He just did not execute his talents consistently. Nor was he mentally strong enough. Again there are Indian examples aplenty.

[vvvslaxman]

I fail to understand what you are going on about Mr. Wicket/Bossbhai! If it is about overhyped cricketers who did not make it, surely we are going to find such examples in Indian cricket too. I dont see anything wrong in saying that Harmison could have become the next Ambrose. He had the ingredients. He just did not execute his talents consistently. Nor was he mentally strong enough. Again there are Indian examples aplenty.

I agree. Even i thought hick would become great. There are cases like W.V.Raman, Raman Lamba, Upt to the individual to shape their career. L Siva could have become the best leggie India ever produced. He had such variation, guile. leg spin came so natural to him. Look at his career. It all went south after fame got to him.

[achilles]

Unfair! Unfair! There are so many overhyped, overglorified English (or South African :D) players that have been lauded to infinity by the Pommy press and then underwhelmed at the international level. Mark Ramprakash? Graeme Hick? Mike Atherton? Nasser Hussain? Ian Bell? Alastair Cook? Kevin Pietersen (a competitor to Bradman who averages below 50 )? Michael Vaughan? And that's not even getting into the bowlers. (Steve "Curtly Ambrose II" Harmison, anyone?)

Its the British press. What can we expect from them? Quality and unbiased reporting? :hehe:

[thevortex]

Its the British press. What can we expect from them? Quality and unbiased reporting? :hehe:

Actually, hate to mention, but the Indian press is even worse! :)

[Bradman99]

Its the British press. What can we expect from them? Quality and unbiased reporting? :hehe:

You missed one.. Flintoff I know he's good, but nowhere near as good as they hype him up.

[thevortex]

You missed one.. Flintoff I know he's good, but nowhere near as good as they hype him up.

Hmm... I would just say that he did not live up to his immense potential. He was a high class all rounder. One of the more complete ones of recent times.

[Serani]

You missed one.. Flintoff I know he's good, but nowhere near as good as they hype him up.

Its more Flintoffs personality that makes him hyped up by us english.

[achilles]

Actually' date=' hate to mention, but the Indian press is even worse! :)[/quote'] There's more to the Indian media than India TV :two_thumbs_up:

[Sachinism]

I don't know why we constantly hear about Indian press being poor and biased, I'm sure every Indian knows that. But that does not mean that the press in Aus is any better. I haven't read further than cricket, but its usually a load of biased crap. So lets stop the finger-pointing

[thevortex]

Not at all, Sachinism. The Aussie media is not hugely better than the common minimum. I agree. I was just failing to find a point to this thread celebrating the mistakes and failures of the players from other countries.

[Chorazin Reto]

Not as good as Mcgrath, but stil good.

[Mamu]

Didnt Lillee try to avoid sub continent pitches like the plague? seem to recall seeing that somewhere' date=' compared to Malcolm Marshall who destroyed India in India.[/quote'] Which is why I rate Marshall the BEST EVER THERE WAS! On a bald Kanpur Pitch -- he made the ball talk. And I mean really really talk and no other bowler on display was even half as good and that list included -- Garner, Roberts, Holding and Kapil.

[vvvslaxman]

During first visit Marshall was not that successful. His average was around 90. Only in his return series he took revenge. But Sunny really gave it back to him in few tests. Overall his performance against India is outstanding. He pwned us every time.

[Mamu]

Not half as good as Lillee? Why? Didn't he achieve better results playing in the exact same era as Lillee? Also it's a fact that he had to bowl half his matches on dead tracks of the sub continent. If you are talking about ball tampering, then what about Akram, why exactly the same doesn't apply to him? When did I say Imran is not rated? All I said is that as a bowler he doesn't even get half the credit that Lillee gets. It's one thing when you talk about batsman. Viv Richards, despite averaging lower than Border, Gavaskar, Chappel and Miandad, is rated higher than all of them because of his unmatched ability to destroy bowling attacks. In batting, it's not only how many runs you score, but also about the way in which you score them. I don't think there's such a thing in bowling. I mean no one gives a damn how a bowler takes his wickets, all that matters is whether he is getting wickets or not.

Reason why people believe Imran is deeply involved in Ball Tampering is because he admitted it himself, that he did it once. But we all should be fools to believe that he did it ONLY ONCE. With no cameras to catch and no preventive measures at all in those days -- he probably had a ball with ball-tampering. With Akram -- during his career the TV cameras got better and better and players got caught more often, some -- rightly some wrongly but most of them did -- so if Akram did more than once, I have to believe he would have been caught. Now after all I have said -- if you ask me -- why did Afridi do it -- well -- there are a LOT of things that bamboozle me about Paki - Land and you can add this to that list.