Is IPL one of the reasons for India's dismal performance in World T20, 2010?

[The Outsider]

^ Can you add on the number of IPL games to that list? Dhoni - 43 Raina - 42 Watson - 42 Harbhajan - 40 White - 40 Sehwag - 39 Hussey - 38 Gambhir - 37 Yuvraj - 37 McCullum - 34 Zaheer - 33 Johnson - 33 There you have it - the entire core of India's T20 team in the top 12. And yes, Watson has been exceptional and is in the midst of a purple patch of his career. If you want to take him as the typical sample, I really don't know what to say!

[Precambrian]

http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=3;spanmax2=1+apr+2010;spanmin2=1+jan+2008;spanval2=span;team=6;template=results;type=allround Lol @ definition of core. Sehwag and Zaheer not even in the top 10 in terms of total matches played since start of 08 till beginning of this world Cup. I'll repeat, what has Sehwag, Zaheer, Gambir etc done so exceptionally well, in the last 2.5 years including IPL to be considered as core? On the other hand you have players like Ojha missing out despite having done whenever he got a chance and backing it up in the IPL. Thanks for cumulating the number of matches. I see you've just added the IPL matches and not Big Bash or South African domestic matches to that list. Which makes it an incomplete one. Anyways, the top 6 in that list, Dhoni, Raina, Huss, Bhajji, White, Watson have so far done nothing to suggest that they've been done in by fatigue, White I think has played in some big Bash matches also. So your theory that fatigue is a reason behind players is not valid. Now before you start eating me on Dhoni's performance, he played 3 out of 5 at St Lucia, and 2 at Barbados. He was unconquered in St Lucia but was poo in Barbados, so were every other Indian batsmen bar Sharma. The reason was not fatigue but inability to deal with a pitch which had bounce and against lineups containing Taylor, Roach, Tait, Nannes, Johnson etc. The only Indian names who can claim fatigue to have affected their performances are Yuvraj And Gambir, but that's nullified by them being poo in the IPL as well from the start.

[Precambrian]

Also don't forget some Australians in that list have also played more tests than Indians. Australia played 8 tests in the summer as compared to India's 5 so while in the list above it accounts to just 3 matches, the diff in player days put in is 15 bloody days.

[sixnout]

Ipl showed that Indians need more fielding practice in the juniors, a lot of the Indians coming through are just plain clumsy in the field.

[Precambrian]

On rechecking it appears India have played 7 test matches. Sorry. Still that in itself makes 5 days of extra effort.

[The Outsider]

http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=3;spanmax2=1+apr+2010;spanmin2=1+jan+2008;spanval2=span;team=6;template=results;type=allround Lol @ definition of core. Sehwag and Zaheer not even in the top 10 in terms of total matches played since start of 08 till beginning of this world Cup.

The reason they are not there is at least partially due to injuries picked up in IPL.

I'll repeat, what has Sehwag, Zaheer, Gambir etc done so exceptionally well, in the last 2.5 years including IPL to be considered as core? On the other hand you have players like Ojha missing out despite having done whenever he got a chance and backing it up in the IPL.

I don't care what Sehwag has done. To discount his importance to the team in any format of the game is foolishness. And perhaps one of the big reasons why we have such a crappy T20 record is because Sehwag has not been able to play for us. Zaheer in English conditions last year would have been a handful. You need to look beyond numbers, specially when dealing with such small numbers.

Thanks for cumulating the number of matches. I see you've just added the IPL matches and not Big Bash or South African domestic matches to that list. Which makes it an incomplete one.

I don't think the international players would have played much, specially the Australians who had international series going on pretty much throughout their summer.

Anyways, the top 6 in that list, Dhoni, Raina, Huss, Bhajji, White, Watson have so far done nothing to suggest that they've been done in by fatigue, White I think has played in some big Bash matches also. So your theory that fatigue is a reason behind players is not valid. Now before you start eating me on Dhoni's performance, he played 3 out of 5 at St Lucia, and 2 at Barbados. He was unconquered in St Lucia but was poo in Barbados, so were every other Indian batsmen bar Sharma. The reason was not fatigue but inability to deal with a pitch which had bounce and against lineups containing Taylor, Roach, Tait, Nannes, Johnson etc. The only Indian names who can claim fatigue to have affected their performances are Yuvraj And Gambir, but that's nullified by them being poo in the IPL as well from the start.

Yuvraj, Gambhir, and Zaheer have all looked unfit. How was playing 15 matches across the country, traveling every second day and attending those lovely IPL parties supposed to help them gain fitness. Sehwag was a direct casualty. Of course there are other reasons for our poor performance besides the IPL - like our crap bowling, mediocre fielding, and inability to play the short ball. I have never denied those reasons. You and others are the ones denying IPL fatigue as a possible factor.

[Zap_Brannigan]

Raina shortcomings were found out during IPL 2 and T20 WC last year. You mean to say that 1 year is not enough to work on his shortcomings? He was part of the squad with all the resources available and plenty of International cricket to work on it. He just got better at leaving the short balls alone.

[Precambrian]

@ The Outsider, That's the issue with us, we are waiting and waiting and waiting for our batting and bowling superstars in other formats to click in IPL. It's been more than 2 years, and still we're waiting Zaheer, Sehwag etc will come good. They wont. We have to move on, understand that players like Sachin, Kumble who retain their competitiveness across all formats even at this age, are rare . We've players capable of forming our core, we just need to give them the encouragement. I've shown that your theory of fatigue is not a valid one. I can't go on repeating this, but Yuvraj and Gambir were out of form from the initial stages of the IPL, when they were reasonably fresh etc etc. Our players have played less or as much cricket as top Aussie performers in this Cup, so if fatigue has not hit them, how come it has hit only us. Please don't give this 15 match travelling across rubbish. They're not moved around in buses unlike in county cricket but through flights. And pressure and demands of International cricket is much bigger than an IPL game, which Aussies have been playing more. Further after all these, Watson, Hussey, White etc have also been past of IPL as well. So stop blaming IPL and fatigue etc and start identifying the real reasons. It isn't that tough really. Dire selections, and absence of technique are the reasons. In other words, none among our current crop have the requisite skills to succeed at the top level consistently. Can the IPL correct it? No. But then IPL never claimed to be the all in one solution package for India's problems. It's hilarious how doing away with the IPL will make Raina a better player of the pull. I can't see the co relation.

[Chandan]

And pressure and demands of International cricket is much bigger than an IPL game, which Aussies have been playing more. Further after all these, Watson, Hussey, White etc have also been past of IPL as well. So stop blaming IPL and fatigue etc and start identifying the real reasons. It isn't that tough really. Dire selections, and absence of technique are the reasons. In other words, none among our current crop have the requisite skills to succeed at the top level consistently. Can the IPL correct it? No. But then IPL never claimed to be the all in one solution package for India's problems. It's hilarious how doing away with the IPL will make Raina a better player of the pull. I can't see the co relation.

I don't think anyone is saying that ONLY IPL, is responsible for India's dire show here. Yes, selection of XV was wrong, out of that XV also, the selection of XI for Barbados matches were wrong; Yes, the technique of many batsmen were found wanting, and yes, Dhoni's captainship was absolutely poor along with our eternal problem of almost non-existent bowling attack. But tell me, how did a captain who was so sharp to move ahead of the pace of the match to take unorthodox steps, suddenly has become too defensive with a safety first approach? Has mental fatigue not played a role here? And didn't IPL contribute to that? How did batsmen, who if fit and fresh can choose right shots to execute and launch attack on the opposition like Gambhir and Yuvraj kept on playing wrong shots? Didn't their mind seem too dull there? How did that happen? Wasn't excessive cricket responsible for that dullness and wasn't IPL a part of that? As for the highlighted part of the post that I've quoted, I'll take Kumble word more seriously that yours. And this what he has to say: Anil Kumble May 13, 2010 In T20 cricket, it’s very difficult to point to something and say A, B and C went wrong. But yes, India could probably have done some things differently even while realising that this wasn't the Indian Premier League. The pressure during the IPL is very different, as you are performing for your franchises. It’s quite intense. Perhaps, the players felt more in their comfort zone when they went back into an Indian set-up and it cost them. It sounds odd but it makes sense. But where we went under (especially in Barbados) was in the pace-bowling department. After Praveen went back, Zaheer seemed to be struggling with something and Ashish, on his own, wasn’t enough on that wicket. Our selection was wrong in Barbados, where we played an extra batsman. India did not show faith in Vinay on a wicket that offered both bounce and carry, which was a mistake. In T20 cricket, you’ve to take your chances, go with your gut. You’ve to make choices that might backfire but are more likely to get you a win. You can’t be defensive and justify it by hoping things will work out. The lack of faith in our pace bowlers though, is worrying on a larger scale. If you look at the number of players who have turned out for India over the past couple of years, there's quality. Yet, they’ve all disappeared: You don’t have Sreesanth, RP Singh is completely off the selectors’ radar, there’s no news of Munaf, Ishant seems out of sync, and Irfan, a key player in any format, is gone. What’s going on? In Irfan’s case especially, it’s worrying because while India have spinning all-rounders, players who can do a bit here and there, they need someone for the role Shane Watson does so well for Australia, Kallis has done for years for South Africa or a Tim Bresnan, with his ability to bowl 137-138 kms per hour and then bat, is beginning to do for England. We need to look at how we’re handling our pacemen — just like we’ve picked Mithun, who turned out for India in the last one-dayer against South Africa, for the India A team. He should have been picked for the Zimbabwe tour. We’re making the mistake of picking players for ODIs based on their IPL performance but bowling 10 overs and four is completely different. As for the batting, India had the momentum in the first 10 overs and then they lost it. Maybe, sending Yusuf out when Sri Lankan spinners were bowling in tandem would have made more sense on that wicket. We needed someone to get a 20-ball 50. Also, someone like Dinesh, who’s batted in the middle for India, would probably have been useful in the games in Barbados, given his ability to play the rising ball. India have to address the problem — either ensure that the guys in the team adapt to the bouncing ball or pick people who can play it. Looking ahead, with the major players being rested for Zimbabwe, it’s a good time to reflect on our approach to T20 internationals, now part and parcel of international tours. India seem confused about their T20 plans but have to be clear about game selection and who fits into what role. And finally of course, there’s the mindset issue. Despite knowing fully well what we needed to get before the game, we couldn’t — Sri Lanka didn’t look at getting 143, they looked at winning. They were not defensive and that’s where they got it right. Their positive mindset was the difference between them and India, as evidenced by what Dhoni said after the loss to the West Indies. “We’ll play Lanka and go home.” India seemed already resigned to the fact that they were out and that was unacceptable. Whether you have a one per cent chance or half a per cent, you have to grab it with both hands. There’s some soul-searching to do. ----------------------------------------------------------------- So, IPL has been useless for Indian cricket till now and instead of helping it, like Ranji or Deodhar does, it has gone on hurt the Indian cricket at international level.

[Precambrian]

I think we're overreacting to this. We just don't want to break the idols in our mind, but also want to blame something. Enter IPL. Seriously, I don't get how purely subjective perceptions like Dhoni's 'dull', 'defensive' captaincy being attributed to IPL. The same Dhoni, won the IPL with exactly same captaincy. Might as well blame the food he had in West Indies for his poor captaincy. Or the bed he slept on, because that's exactly how much relevance IPL has on his captaincy. There is a proverb. A bad worker blames his tools. I think that's applicable here. Further I don't see where Kumble has explicitly said IPL is tougher than International t20. He merely alluded to gelling with each other is easier in a national setup as compared to a randomly set up team consisting of foreigners. Many of the local guys have issues speaking in English and vice versa. A national setup allows you to bond faster as you can communicate with almost everyone in hindi. Really, it is not rocket science. But skillwise is IPL comparable to a t20 world Cup? I disagree. See Useless Pathan for example. He made a 37 ball hundred in the IPL but got completely owned in world Cup. India were mediocre in test matches till turn of the millenium, for almost 60 years that is. All this while they never ever came even closer to being in the top 3 in the world. But I don't remember anyone clamouring for dismantling the ranji trophy or the duleep trophy. Australia plummetted from world number one in test cricket to no.4 in a matter of about 1 year or so. Yet I don't recollect seeing anybody calling for restructuring the shield. This is not to suggest All is well with IPL. But as a domestic t20 competition it is offering good value to the domestic players. Had our selector maintained consistency in selections, ie, selected all players based on their IPL performances alone, perhaps we would be playing semifinals.

[asterix]

How can Dhoni blame fatigue due to IPL. The other day they were seen jumping and merry making in the Caribbean waves and having excellent time playing beach volleyball. Many sportsperson will die to get the type of physical conditioning our fake rockstars get.. I find it childish on Dhoni's part to blame everything on IPL parties. It appears he thinks Indian fans are stupid ignorant fools. I hope he takes time to check what sort of discussions we have about captaincy, strategies, team selection. He will be surprised to know that we have been predicting that he and his team will fail on many counts. How can you blame IPL parties for playing Bhikhari Jadeja for 2 matches and then dropping him (I don't know why he dropped him in the last match). How can you blame IPL parties for pathetic field placings, bowling strategies, pathetic captaincy, pathetic team selections, pathetic decision making after winning toss etc? Other losing captains like Smith and Vettori were gracefull enough to accept their mistakes and defeat. That's what make them apart from this over-hyped loser Dhoni.. Many fans will say this is just T20 and based on luck etc. It's an ICC event and other teams are playing it seriously. It's not some gilli-danda matches going on. If this attitude continues, the team will fail 9 out of 10 times in other ICC events too. What's the point of having top rankings in other formats of the game when you can't do well on these International events? These events are like competitive exams which you take to get noticed. Odi and Test rankings are good but you'll not stay on the top for long and people don't remember your team if it was top ranked an year ago. But yes, when you win these international events, people will remember your team as winner of a particular event for that year. We still remember India was a winner of ODI WC in 1983. Nobody remembers what the Test and ODI rank was of the Indian team in 1983 (don't want to know also)..

[Tapioca]

It appears he thinks Indian fans are stupid ignorant fools.

No need for "appears" and "thinks". He knows and he is right.

[f2000560]

Dhoni has not blamed the IPL or its parties.... read his statement "The players have to respect the body, give it time to recover. There have been day-night matches, then parties, and early morning flights too. All this, including the travel, takes a toll. But if you are smart, I don't think 45 days of cricket will drain you," His blaming his players for getting their priorities wrong, letting sucess and fame( even though it might IPL) get to their head, reading a rock star lifestyle instead of being dilligent to the game. yuvi probably exemplifies this he is too busy shooting captain India and almost being the next swyamvar candidate punctuated by butter chicken and allo da paratha with ghee. Yusuf probably is another one who i think is hardly bothered whether he does well for team india as long he the poster boy for RR, I won't be long before other youngsters go this way instead of upping their game to compete in the international level. Lets admit it IPL gives them enough fame, money and recognition (which is not entirely bad) to take the easy way out and not strive to do well nationally. Of course they are going to say " National is first" etc etc cause that is the politically correct thing to do but why try harder when you have a cushy job ....?

[Chandan]

Precambrian, It seems you have never seen or gone through a hectic schedule in your life to see how your decision making power gets affected by fatigue. But then I leave it you as you will certainly experience such a thing in your life and see its effects yourself. Till then, you are entitled to your opinion. Since we have derailed this thread in dissecting how IPl has adversely affected out performance at T20 world cup, I've come across a good analysis and would like to share it with you all: The World Cup hangover May 13, 2010 prempanicker It is significant — in a bizarre, what-the-**** sort of way, to note that the BCCI is contemplating [actually, to use the Times of India's patented style, make that "allegedly contemplating..."] sacking MS Dhoni not on the basis of a qualitative review of his performance as national captain, but because he had the gall to suggest that post-IPL parties on top of a hectic playing and traveling schedule had taken its toll on the players. Significant, because it sums up all that is wrong with the BCCI. On the one hand, it has no idea of the product it is supposed to be handling. And on the other, it has a phenomenally thin skin and at the first hint of anything remotely resembling criticism, it goes into its world famous imitation of a porcupine, all bristling venom-tipped quills. It doesn’t help that there are sufficient loose cannons among the former players to fan the flames [and note, I am speaking not of Dhoni alone, but of the team in toto]. For starters, barring Sourav Ganguly no one had the cojones to name Yuvraj Singh as a problem child. His case is typical of how it happens in Indian cricket: he drew flak for a variety of reasons ranging from his highly visible paunch obvious lack of physical fitness, to his lackadaisical on-field performance and general lack of involvement. Promptly, his team, his captain, his franchise and assorted board honchos came up with statements “expressing support”, and denying that there was a problem. He then went out and hit a few runs, gesticulated a take-that message to the pavilion and the TV camera, and that was that — all was forgiven and, more importantly, forgotten. Till the next time. The other, equally distinguished commentators have come up with statements ranging from the banal to the bizarre. Gavaskar is bemused, apparently, by the lack of preparation to cope with the short pitched delivery. Well okay — how to prepare and when? Did it occur to Gavaskar, a paid member in good standing of the IPL’s governing council, that you cannot on the one hand have your players snacking on bowling rendered toothless by dead pitches and short boundaries calculated to produce a flood of sixes DLF Maximums [notice how many of our 'boys' got caught inside the boundary line, in the West Indies?], schedule the tournament so it ends less than a week before the World Cup begins, and then talk of ‘preparation’? Madan Lal wonders who forced Indian players to attend parties. Um… the answer, Madan, would be the franchises and the IPL’s ‘entertainment committee’, which was selling tickets at Rs 45,000 a pop to fans hungry to mix with players. Azharuddin says the game is more important than parties, which is about as much use as his trademark “we batted badly, bowled badly and fielded badly” when the team lost under his stewardship. While on parties, consider a statement made by IPL commissioner-elect Chirayu Amin:

IPL’s late night parties had turned controversial with players — stretched with nearly back-to-back games — coming out in muted protests against the entertainment overkill. Moreso because these were also considered a compulsion. ‘‘ I can say that the parties would be stopped,’’ said Amin to reporters in Vadodara on Tuesday . The IPL parties enriched IPL team-owners but took a heavy toll on players’ fitness levels owing to the hectic schedule. Indeed, the word was out over the last few days that late night bashes will be discontinued.

That statement was made on April 28 — two days before the World Cup began. The stories of the time include repeated references to the franchises forcing players to attend; it included more than one mention that players were unhappy, but could not protest. Madan and Azhar might want to consider that timeline, before they next wax indignant in front of the TV cameras. Incidentally, I am not suggesting that MS was right to offer that up as an excuse; I am, however, suggesting that before you give his statement the horse laugh, you might want to recall recent history, and consider whether there is a grain of truth in what he is saying. To throw out the statement simply because it comes after a defeat is a case of baby, bathwater. Ravi Shastri takes the biscuit, though. Having sat in the commentary box throughout a tournament wherein Yusuf Pathan managed a grand total of 42 runs off 34 balls, the best Shastri can do by way of analysis is to suggest that Dhoni should have sent Pathan in early in the deciding game against Sri Lanka [his scores till then? A confidence-inspiring run of 11 off 7, 1 off 5 and 17 off 12. If you were Indian captain, would you deliberately have pushed a player who looked totally at sea up the order? In fact, where Dhoni IMHO goofed in that final game against SL was in promoting the likes of Yusuf ahead of Rohit Sharma]. It’s a pity that the former greats who now occupy the commentary box and Parliamentary seats do not make half the sense of an Anil Kumble, by the way. Or maybe not — the system is set up to facilitate noise and filter out sense. All of which brings me right back to the BCCI. And the question the likes of Gavaskar are not willing to ask. Here’s Sunny’s sound byte:

What is baffling is that even though most batsmen showed a distinct sense of discomfort against the short ball during the World Twenty20 in England last year, they were picked again for an event on even bouncier pitches in the Caribbean.

One presumes that the BCCI is as aware as Sunny-bhai that a year ago, India got bounced out of the second edition of the World T20 Cup. So between then and now, just what did the board do to overcome that collective shortcoming? Did it produce quicker tracks for the domestic competition, so players could get some experience against rearing deliveries? With the exception of the Ranji final, no. Did it sit down with the selectors to identify players who are seen as core to the team, identify their shortcomings up to and including an inability to play short pitched bowling, and then institute corrective measures [such as sending those players, with a clear report pinned to their shirt fronts, to the NCA [which, excuse me while I laugh, is currently headed by Ravi Shastri] for specialized coaching and practice? Did the board think of sending some of these players off to the Australian Cricket Academy, or to South Africa, for extended practice? Again, no. So how does this go, per Gavaskar’s playbook? We pick one lot today, we find they are not fit to cope with fast bowling, we junk them all, we pick another lot for another year, find they are not qualified to cope with fast bowling, junk them, pick a third lot… and so on ad infinitum? Here’s what I am driving at: For a little over 15 years, I have been following and writing on cricket. During that period, I have lost count of the number of times board officials, expert commentators, past players, and folks like you and I have cribbed about India’s inabilities against the short, rising delivery. In all this time, though, has anything ever been done about it, by the body that is mandated to improve our cricketing lot? No. Take another example: the “strategic blunder” of going with spin. Where did that blunder originate? Our premier pace bowler is Zaheer Khan. Clearly, he was unfit going into the tournament — incidentally, the way his health issues have been handled has a large amount of mystery attached to it. Who else did we have, of the quality required to compete on level terms with more pace oriented sides? It is more instructive to look at who we do not have: Irfan Pathan, Lakshmipathy Balaji, Shantakumaran Sreesanth, Ishant Sharma, R P Singh… all these players have in recent memory bowled well enough to be touted as the next great hope. All of them have started out in the late 130k-early 140k speeds. All of them have since their halcyon days dramatically fallen away in pace and venom. And all have been dumped by selection committees who have then unearthed the ‘next’ great hope. Who in his turn has fallen away. Are you aware that at any time in these past few years, the selectors have assessed the decline in skill of these bowlers and reported on their assessment to the Board? Has the Board at any time sought the inputs of the national coach? Based on these inputs, has the Board on at least one occasion called the player concerned, discussed his shortcomings with him, and sent him to the NCA or better yet, the MRF Pace Academy [the virtues of which the Shastris and Gavaskars routinely parroted every time the "blimp" was witnessed] for corrective action? India did not ‘pick’ a spin strategy thanks to having misread the Caribbean conditions; it was not a “strategic error”. India opted to pack its team with slow bowlers only because we have no choice: We have slow bowlers, and then we have bowlers who run in from the distance and bowl slow. On Twitter, Harsha Bhogle recently made this point: Who did we leave out? Harsha’s point is well taken. How many of you who suggest that the selectors goofed by not picking Manish Pandey, Robin Uthappa and Virat Kohli can state on the basis of precedent, and with complete confidence, that they would not similarly have been found out by high quality fast bowling targeting the body? And similarly, isn’t there a certain degree of dissonance in simultaneously suggesting that we erred by depending on spin, and also saying in the same breath that maybe Pragyan Ojha or Amit Mishra would have made the difference? Did we leave Malcolm Marshall, Wasim Akram and Michael Holding behind, and deliberately pick spinners instead? Let’s wrap our heads around one central fact of cricketing life in India: We do not have fast bowlers. What we do have is a program calculated to reduce reasonably quick bowlers into toothless trundlers in the space of a season. I’m not trying to suggest that there were no faults in the team as picked. Nor that Dhoni’s handling of the team was pitch perfect — there was more than one occasion when it seemed to all observers that the captain had missed an obvious bet, or three [his choices of whether to bat or bowl first at times verged on the bizarre, for instance]. What I’d like to submit, though, is this: we seem set to do with the national team what we have done or are doing with the IPL. To wit, when something doesn’t work, quickly find a scapegoat, skin him in the media and hang him in public gaze, and quickly get back to business as usual. It might satisfy the apparent need for ‘closure’ — but it sure as hell will not, in and of itself, help us learn from our mistakes and push us to work on eradicating them. Aide memoire: remember when India won the inaugural edition of the T20 World Cup? Remember the ticker tape parade through the streets of Bombay — with NCP leaders perched in the open vans meant for cricketers, waving to the crowds? Remember the victory ‘celebrations’ at the Wankhede, where the front row was occupied by the likes of Sharad Pawar, Praful Patel, RR Patil, Rajiv Shukla, Lalit Modi, IS Bindra, PM Rungta, Sunil Dev et al? A funny thing happened then — Yuvraj walked up on stage, saw a vacant seat in the front row, and sat down. An official promptly trotted up, and hustled him off to where his mates sat — two rows behind. That vacant chair, it turned out, had been reserved for Niranjan Shah, the board secretary. So here’s something the board needs to think about: If you are cook to bask in the glory when the team goes out and wins you trophies, shouldn’t you be as proactive in accepting at least a part of the blame when it loses? More to the point, isn’t it your responsibility to do everything possible to create a team that is competitive at the international level? PS: None of the above is to excuse either the team, or the captain. My only intent is to suggest that the conversation cannot begin and end with those. That is what I was saying--IPL is NOT the ONLY thing to be blamed, there are many other reasons too.

[Nova]

Post IPL, players went into their comfort zones - Anil Kumble Kumble thinks that the players got complacent after IPL This is what he had to say: Former India captain Anil Kumble has said that Indian players could have slackened a bit following the IPL, where the pressure of performing for franchises is "quite intense". "The pressure during the IPL is very different, as you are per forming for your franchises," Kumble wrote in the Hindustan Times. "It's quite intense. Perhaps, the players felt more in their comfort zone when they went back into an Indian set-up and it cost them. It sounds odd but it makes sense." Read the full article here: http://www.cricinfo.com/world-twenty20-2010/content/current/story/459486.html ---------------------------------------------------- Now I am of the opinion that in addition to our players not being good enough...IPL was also a contributing factor. I doubt that anything will be done though coz there's just too much money involved.

[thevortex]

Precambrian - I have been saying this for sometime now. Dhoni has not been dull and defensive as a captain only in this tournament. He has been that for quite some time now. It is only when India lose that people start taking notice. More is the pity. His captaincy throughout most of the IPL was never short of baffling. Not in the good sense :). In the finals he was alert and had the right team combination. I dont think we should be surprised at Dhoni's captaincy. At the very least not now. Anyway that is not the only or even major reason for our loss in this competition.

[The Outsider]

@ The Outsider, That's the issue with us, we are waiting and waiting and waiting for our batting and bowling superstars in other formats to click in IPL. It's been more than 2 years, and still we're waiting Zaheer, Sehwag etc will come good. They wont. We have to move on, understand that players like Sachin, Kumble who retain their competitiveness across all formats even at this age, are rare . We've players capable of forming our core, we just need to give them the encouragement.

How many T20s has Sehwag played for India? Maybe 5, and you are writing a player of his class and caliber off! And don't bring in the IPL. Yes he has been mediocre there, but that's the kind of player Sehwag is. Look at his performances against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe. Before the Australian tour of '07-'08 when he was selected there were many on this board claiming injustice because he was not able to score against Himachal in Ranji trophy. Well, guess what he turned the tour around for us as soon as he was played in the 3rd test. It's downright dumb to question Sehwag's effectiveness and role. While people might have orgasms over Vijay and Pathan smacking the leather off the ball in the IPL, it is players like Sehwag who are going to win you international matches against quality opposition.

I've shown that your theory of fatigue is not a valid one. I can't go on repeating this, but Yuvraj and Gambir were out of form from the initial stages of the IPL, when they were reasonably fresh etc etc. Our players have played less or as much cricket as top Aussie performers in this Cup, so if fatigue has not hit them, how come it has hit only us. Please don't give this 15 match travelling across rubbish. They're not moved around in buses unlike in county cricket but through flights. And pressure and demands of International cricket is much bigger than an IPL game, which Aussies have been playing more. Further after all these, Watson, Hussey, White etc have also been past of IPL as well.

LOL! Traveling is rubbish. If you haven't done it, you cannot imagine the toll it can take on you physically and mentally. Management consulting companies have special programs for their employees about how to cope with frequent travel with minimum effect on performance. Yes, they are traveling by flights. Can you give me a door to door travel time from Bangalore to Delhi? Even with the special treatment the players get, it won't be less than 6 hours! Kumble, a veteran of international cricket and IPL, has already said where there is more pressure. I see no reason to take your word over his, given that he no longer has any vested interest in cricket and is giving an honest opinion.

So stop blaming IPL and fatigue etc and start identifying the real reasons. It isn't that tough really. Dire selections, and absence of technique are the reasons. In other words, none among our current crop have the requisite skills to succeed at the top level consistently. Can the IPL correct it? No. But then IPL never claimed to be the all in one solution package for India's problems. It's hilarious how doing away with the IPL will make Raina a better player of the pull. I can't see the co relation.

If there is no fatigue and the players are not overworked why are we sending an A team to Zimbabwe and a B team to England A? Can county cricket correct Raina's deficiencies? Can county cricket help in getting Sreesanth and Ishant back into rhythm? Can county cricket provide exposure to Mishra about bowling on different tracks? Yes it can, but the BCCI won't allow them to go there because the players are overworked and because of IPL politics.

[achilles]

Fighting with fans, swearing at women, abusing people and having your shirt torn after crashing out of the World T20s is fine. IPL Parties aren't, isn't it, Dhoni? B->

[Karan114]

Indian Premier League [ Images ] governing council vice-chairman Niranjan Shah is disappointed, and angry, by the flop show put up by Mahendra Singh Dhoni [ Images ] and men at the ongoing ICC [ Images ] World Twenty20 [ Images ] in the Caribbean. The former Board of Control for Cricket in India secretary expressed his disappointment in no uncertain terms in Rajkot on Wednesday evening. "Our cricketers have done very badly in the Twenty20 World Cup. It's really disappointing that they didn't win a single match in the Super Eight round. They must not try to offer excuses for their pathetic performance. The players have to blame themselves. They must introspect where they went wrong or what went wrong. I think, except one or two players, most of them failed to do their jobs," he stated. It goes without saying that the travel-play-travel grind, as well as long post-match night parties, of the marathon IPL, just before the prestigious event in the West Indies [ Images ] had drained many Indian players. "I don't think players can complain now that they were tired because of IPL and hence they weren't in a position to give their best in the West Indies. Most of them are quite educated and know their responsibilities well. If they felt the IPL after-parties weren't good for them, they shouldn't have gone there. Now when the Indian team has been bundled out of the tournament, I think it's ridiculous to blame the IPL and give petty excuses," he said, in an annoying tone. "Instead of blaming it, the IPL should be considered a good platform for practice for the players just before an important event like the T20 World Championship. But if the players feel that they're tired because of the IPL, they shouldn't play in it. There is no shortage of talented cricketers in India. There are so many of them to choose from. We shouldn't depend upon on only ten or eleven players." Shah also felt that many members of the Indian team were given enough opportunities in spite of being unable to capitalise on them. He added, "I think the time has come for the national selection committee to look deeper into many things. There are many players who haven't done even reasonably well despite getting a lot of chances to prove their talents. It's about time some changes were made in the Indian team. You should start giving chances to new players." The selectors have picked a very young and inexperienced team for the tour of Zimbabwe while resting many of the seniors. But that could well be because of the current standard of the Zimbabwe side, though Sri Lanka [ Images ] is one of the three teams competing in the one-day tri-series. Surprisingly, Shah didn't make a mention of this while suggesting changes to the Indian team which performed so shoddily in the Caribbean. Asked whether Team India missed the expertise and experience of Sachin Tendulkar [ Images ], and whether he should have gone to the Caribbean given his good form in the IPL, Shah replied: "He has long made his decision not to play in the ICC World Twenty20 championship. And we shouldn't depend on only one great player. The players selected in the Indian side should know their responsibilities, they should try their best to get the team in the final and win the championship."

http://cricket.rediff.com/report/2010/may/13/niranjan-shah-slams-dhoni-team-india-ipl.htm Karan, I edited your post by mistake trying to quote it. Can you re edit it.

[The Outsider]

"Instead of blaming it, the IPL should be considered a good platform for practice for the players just before an important event like the T20 World Championship. But if the players feel that they're tired because of the IPL, they shouldn't play in it. There is no shortage of talented cricketers in India. There are so many of them to choose from. We shouldn't depend upon on only ten or eleven players."

If Indian international players stop playing the IPL, it will be watched by 50 policemen and 10 dogs.