Times article on Indians in Edison, NJ - racist?

[gs]

First of all IT doesn't mean R&D. It just means what we are currently doing, providing world class IT. If it wasn't world class, companies wouldn't be using those services to tune of Billions of dollars. Secondly, Google and MS weren't started by Indians. While Indians have started some innovative tech companies in the US, the kinds you are referring to have been started by freaks who are a by product of the American culture. There are no Steve Jobs or Bill Gates anywhere in the world, that is the truth.

Where was I implying IT was R&D?!? My point is why do we excel as innovators with foreign employers only?!? We seem to be world class in the lower rungs of the IT heirarchy, but not really in innovation or cutting edge technology. Does it really matter who started MS or Apple to this discussion, as long as Indians are excelling at innovation and making solid contributions in such companies? I would imagine a Tata or a Premji would qualify as a world class enterpreneur in their own right, even if they are not as freakish as a Gates or Jobs. But Indians in their companies dont seem to be doing as well in terms of innovation. We seem to excel at being clerks.

[Ram]

Lurker has made it quite clear that he loathes the lifestyle of Indians. He WANTS Indians to be more like Spain or Brazil. Well no one is stopping Lurker to be more like Spanish or Brazilians' date=' but the fact that he is obsessed with transforming the lifestyle of the entire Indian community speaks enough about how he feels "being Indian" is a drag on him. [/quote'] You talk as though ‘being more Spanish or Brazil’ is like him advocating for us to get into drugs dealing and kidnapping. He wants us to be good in sports, arts and be culturally more expressive. Whats wrong with that?

And I dont understand his absurd assertion that the success of Indian-Americans is based on rote learning - a laughable extrapolation from his possibly imperfect understanding of his own minute world of IT outsourcing. So for him there are no Indian scientists, doctors, engineers, inventors? Or an acknowledgment of the overwhelming presence of Indians in research positions in universities (compared to their percentage in population). It is outrageous to dismiss all of them as rote-learners. Also according to him, apparently Indians are not entrepreneurial enough .. LOL! Give me a break - Indians own a hell of a lot of commercial enterprises, from motels to restaurants to grocery stores all over the USA. But he cant bring himself to recognize this perhaps because owning small businesses is not classy entrepreneurship for Lurker.

Even though I am not sure that is the EXACT position of Lurker vis-à-vis rote learning and entrepreneurship, I agree with what you said there. Not every Indian succeeds through rote learning, much like not every Indian progresses through knowledge and intellect as well. Its inaccurate to generalize either way.

Anyway' date=' I call him for what I see him as and I am not the only one on this thread who has done so.[/quote'] Oh you’re not going to get away that easily. Its one thing to call out people on the flawed positions, but to call someone a ‘RACIST’ based on his/her opinions towards the nature of our growth in the US is at least outrageous, if not deliberately malicious. Nothing of what Lurker has said so far has even an inkling of any racial or ethnic undertones. His viewpoints are probably shaped by his own experiences and interactions. You might or might not agree with him, but to call him a ‘RACIST’ based on his opinions expressed in this thread thus far pathetic clearly exposes you, once again, as someone who doesn’t hesitate even a trifle before indulging in dishonest and inaccurate portrayal of other peoples’ positions. Shame on you once again!

[yoda]

Where was I implying IT was R&D?!? My point is why do we excel as innovators with foreign employers only?!? We seem to be world class in the lower rungs of the IT heirarchy, but not really in innovation or cutting edge technology. Does it really matter who started MS or Apple to this discussion, as long as Indians are excelling at innovation and making solid contributions in such companies?I would imagine a Tata or a Premji would qualify as a world class enterpreneur in their own right, even if they are not as freakish as a Gates or Jobs. But Indians in their companies dont seem to be doing as well in terms of innovation. We seem to excel at being clerks.

It matters cause even in the US, we aren't starting those top notch companies, just contributing, much like we are contributing to companies started by Tatas and Premji. The job of a TCS is to provide world class IT services, which it is doing admirably based on it's success and growth. It is not it's goal to develop software for sale. Your question then must be not why Indians aren't excelling at TCS and InfoSys, which ofc they are, rather why we don't have companies like MS and Google in India.

[Lurker]

Any stories to share?

You mean you havent heard any from me recently? :hysterical::hysterical: Well here goes: One of the "contributions" that Indian IT giants have made is that they have diluted the quality of job titles. Anyone who has 5 years plus experience is a Manager, everyone who has worked for 3-4 years is a Technical Lead, everyone who has 5 years plus experience is an Architect. Now I know its unfair to just blame Indians, or Indian companies, for this but considering IT Services is dominated by Indian companies we have a role to play here. Quite recently I was involved in setting up a team for AmEx. Large team with about 100 odd people with 10 managers as such. Too many resumes showed up from the preferred vendors(2 Indians, 1 non-Indians with Indian offshoring). The resumes were all standard. 10-15 years experience, limited technological expertise in last 5 years, all claiming to be running a large account for their respective companies, and all supposedly bringing value! Except it was a massacre in the interview. I was mostly involved in technical portion but most of them never made it that far. In the end the developer roles were sent to the Indian companies, the Architect and Manager roles were sent to a Big 3 US consulting...at a huge cost admittedly but better returns. xxx

[Lurker]

It is true that until now, entrepreneurship is something that the Indians have not been too good at in the tech sector. There are a lot of factors that are responsible for this: 1. Indian universities having almost 0 original research capabilities. Other than in IIS, there is almost no path breaking research done in India. After all, what can researchers hope to make in India? No one respects researchers there. Therefore, they flock to the greener pastures of the US. 2. Starting a business is incredibly hard in India. Unless you have plenty of money to grease the palms of the greedy officers of the license raj, nothing gets done. Most innovators know nothing about starting and maintaining businesses. The complications and impediments thrown into their paths by our bureaucrats makes it worthwhile not to start a business.

Reason 3. We are the only nation with a great history that looked down upon travelling overseas(for trade). Indeed till a century or so ago if a Hindu man went overseas he would have to come back and shower in Ganges to "rid" himself. Gurcharan Das has a good book on this. So obviously we killed our own entreprenural(sp?) skills.

[seedhi]

You talk as though ‘being more Spanish or Brazil’ is like him advocating for us to get into drugs dealing and kidnapping. He wants us to be good in sports' date=' arts and be culturally more expressive. Whats wrong with that?[/quote']But he did bring up "Spanish and Brazilian flair". I dont understand that if an average Indian in the US feels that studies are more important than sports (say) then what is Lurker's problem? Its not as if Indians are into criminal activities. Pursuing academic excellence, or small scale business, or jobs in the service sector are perfectly fine ways to livelihood. The fact is that he feels "incomplete" if the Indian community does not meet his standards of sporting or artistic pursuits - a very sorry state of mind to be in.

Oh you’re not going to get away that easily. Its one thing to call out people on the flawed positions, but to call someone a ‘RACIST’ based on his/her opinions towards the nature of our growth in the US is at least outrageous, if not deliberately malicious. Nothing of what Lurker has said so far has even an inkling of any racial or ethnic undertones. His viewpoints are probably shaped by his own experiences and interactions. You might or might not agree with him, but to call him a ‘RACIST’ based on his opinions expressed in this thread thus far pathetic clearly exposes you, once again, as someone who doesn’t hesitate even a trifle before indulging in dishonest and inaccurate portrayal of other peoples’ positions. Shame on you once again!

You can disagree with me but I am completely being honest for calling him as I see him. And I am not the only one who has done so in this thread.

[gs]

It matters cause even in the US, we aren't starting those top notch companies, just contributing, much like we are contributing to companies started by Tatas and Premji. The job of a TCS is to provide world class IT services, which it is doing admirably based on it's success and growth. It is not it's goal to develop software for sale. Your question then must be not why Indians aren't excelling at TCS and InfoSys, which ofc they are, rather why we don't have companies like MS and Google in India.

I'm not referring to Indians starting companies, just the kind of work we do. There is nothing wrong in starting off at a lower level, but there has to be a natural progression to the higher ones. My gripe is why doesnt an Indian IT giant aim higher?!? Why settle at performing admirably in the lower rungs only? Is it not lucrative or make business sense (not to mention the enhanced reputation) to come up with the next Windows or an I-phone in addition to its well developed services arm?? Is it due to lack of intellect? No. Lack of vision and foresight. Most definitely. MS and Google are revered because of the products they bring out. Ever wonder if they would spoken of at the same breath if they excelled in only IT services? A TCS or Infosys can get there too if they aim higher, but the intent seems to be simply lacking.

[bharathh]

I think the Sindhis, Gujju and Chettiar communities would disagree with you in a big way. We are stifling innovation in our own country due to hardships faced by those that want to start a business of their own. How easy are loans to come by to entrepreneurs? How hassle free is it to get the legal documents required in order to start a business? To say that no Indians have started tech businesses abroad is dumb. Vinod Khosla, Sabir Bhatia, Anand Agarawala, Pranav Mistry are a few that spring to mind when you say this. Like I said earlier, Indian entrepreneurs in India need funding and encouragement from the govt to found companies in India. Once the standard of living and salaries go up in India, I am sure that soon we will have many from India as well. Encouraging research is something that needs to be looked into urgently though. Currently we are losing too many researchers to the USA and other countries due to our mistreatment of academics in India. C

[Ram]

But he did bring up "Spanish and Brazilian flair". I dont understand that if an average Indian in the US feels that studies are more important than sports (say) then what is Lurker's problem? Its not as if Indians are into criminal activities. Pursuing academic excellence' date=' or small scale business, or jobs in the service sector are perfectly fine ways to livelihood. The fact is that he feels "incomplete" if the Indian community does not meet his standards of sporting or artistic pursuits - a very sorry state of mind to be in. [/quote'] Once again, I dunno how saying ‘Indians must start diversifying into other fields apart from academia and IT’ can be termed as a ‘sorry state of mind’. At the very minimum, you can interpret it as a different point of view and at the best, a progressive point of view. As usual, you’re putting your own unique spin to what I think is Lurkers’ very moderate, albeit flawed view of what constitutes success for an immigrant community.

You can disagree with me but I am completely being honest for calling him as I see him. And I am not the only one who has done so in this thread.

But you were the only one who called him a ‘RACIST’, which is patently inaccurate and false. That term has an altogether different and a significantly serious connotation and you weren’t loathe to casually using it in this discussion. To me, it only reinforces my perception of you as someone who is willing to stretch the truth to its extreme ends to suit your own interpretations. This isn’t the first time this has happened but I am willing to bet a considerable sum that it wont be the last either. When you make such far-fetched insinuations based on your own narrow interpretations, you obviously risk losing more credibility, whatever that’s left of it.

[yoda]

I'm not referring to Indians starting companies' date=' just the kind of work we do. [/quote'] The kind of work we do is tied to the kind of company we work for. Work done by Indians working in our company's (US based) Bangalore office is top notch and comparable to the Indians who work here in the US. So it goes back to the type of companies which Indians start in India. They seem to prefer the IT services types as that where the market is for them.

[yoda]

Once again, I dunno how saying ‘Indians must start diversifying into other fields apart from academia and IT’ can be termed as a ‘sorry state of mind’. At the very minimum, you can interpret it as a different point of view and at the best, a progressive point of view. As usual, you’re putting your own unique spin to what I think is Lurkers’ very moderate, albeit flawed view of what constitutes success for an immigrant community. But you were the only one who called him a ‘RACIST’, which is patently inaccurate and false. That term has an altogether different and a significantly serious connotation and you weren’t loathe to casually using it in this discussion. To me, it only reinforces my perception of you as someone who is willing to stretch the truth to its extreme ends to suit your own interpretations. This isn’t the first time this has happened but I am willing to bet a considerable sum that it wont be the last either. When you make such far-fetched insinuations based on your own narrow interpretations, you obviously risk losing more credibility, whatever that’s left of it.

Why do you want to define what others opinion is? He has clearly explained his position. Feel free to disagree and move on.

[Ram]

Why do you want to define what others opinion is? He has clearly explained his position. Feel free to disagree and move on.

Huh, for someone who has been part of MB discussions for as long as you have been, that’s a remarkably naïve position to take. Determining if the person with whom you are debating with is being honest and fair in his assertions has got EVERYTHING to do with whether you want to continue the discussions with him. Lets say you’re opposed to inclusion of Yuvraj Singh and based on that I call you ‘Oh so you must be an obvious Punjabi hater’ but then hastily add ‘But never mind, lets talk about our test prospects in Sri Lanka then’, what would you make of me? More importantly, would you be keen on having any sort of debate with me, knowing that I so shamelessly mischaracterized your position on the inclusion of Yuvraj Singh? Seedhi here has a long and storied history of such mischaracterizations and disingenuous portray of other peoples’ point of view to the point that I dont thinks its accidental or incidental. And its extremely important that such people get called out for that.

[gs]

The kind of work we do is tied to the kind of company we work for. Work done by Indians working in our company's (US based) Bangalore office is top notch and comparable to the Indians who work here in the US. So it goes back to the type of companies which Indians start in India. They seem to prefer the IT services types as that where the market is for them.

Fair enough. But settling for something when they can potentially achieve so much more is disconcerting to me at least.

[seedhi]

Once again' date=' I dunno how saying ‘Indians must start diversifying into other fields apart from academia and IT’ can be termed as a ‘sorry state of mind’. At the very minimum, you can interpret it as a different point of view and at the best, a progressive point of view. As usual, you’re putting your own unique spin to what I think is Lurkers’ very moderate, albeit flawed view of what constitutes success for an immigrant community. [/quote'] Quite frankly, I can interpret his views as I feel them to be - there is no need for me to be bracketed by the limits of your "appropriateness". There are at least a couple of other posters in this thread who have a similar evaluation of Lurker's views as I do.

But you were the only one who called him a ‘RACIST’, which is patently inaccurate and false. That term has an altogether different and a significantly serious connotation and you weren’t loathe to casually using it in this discussion. To me, it only reinforces my perception of you as someone who is willing to stretch the truth to its extreme ends to suit your own interpretations. This isn’t the first time this has happened but I am willing to bet a considerable sum that it wont be the last either. When you make such far-fetched insinuations based on your own narrow interpretations, you obviously risk losing more credibility, whatever that’s left of it.

If I see someone as racist based on his views I call him for being one. I have given my justification and you are free to disagree with it. Instead of that you have chosen to embark on an automatic negation of my terminology. Let me repeat - Lurker feels inadequate due to the lifestyle of the Indian community as a whole. The Indian community is not "sexy" enough for him even though on parameters of income, academic achievement etc Indians score high. And the parameter of judging "sexiness" according to him is that Indians are not into soccer, NBA, Nascar! Combine it with his obsession with calling Indians nerds. Short of calling Indians dot heads thats as racist as you can get.

[THX_1138]

Oh come on! I do think that the article has some xenophobic overtones, but I do not mind it that much. I was more surprised that the Time has chosen to publish this. And yes it is obvious that such an article will probably harder to find if it were on other minorities such as West Indians, Chinese etc. By the way, I am not hating on anything/one by posting this article. But Time should have shown better judgment.

if the article is not about other minorities, it is a testament to how much of a better sense of humor we indians possess. if there is such a minority that one might not satirize, then that is nothing to be proud of as it merely demonstrates their lack of patience and tolerance. we take the mickey out of islam because at one hand it claims to be a very peaceful and tolerant religion, while at the same time holding placards calling for beheadings and such... i think i can venture as far as saying that most run of the mill hindus and indians in particular are not that wound up.

[Lurker]

Let me repeat - Lurker feels inadequate due to the lifestyle of the Indian community as a whole. .

lol. Small wonders I keep the likes of you on ignore. Sriram thanks but dont worry about defending, I could have done that myself and all that..except I pick the people I would like to carry on a conversation with.

[Lurker]

Where was I implying IT was R&D?!? My point is why do we excel as innovators with foreign employers only?!? We seem to be world class in the lower rungs of the IT heirarchy, but not really in innovation or cutting edge technology.

My personal take on that is we lack consumption model. By that I mean you can not invent a solution if you do not know what the problem is? Think credit cards. If you are designing a solution for credit card you have to know how it works. We started using credit card a full 15-20 years after it was invented. So no wonders we are busy doing programming for a product that is already there. You can expand that to most applications. Google, iPhone, ERPs are/were invented because there was a need and someone, a company, stepped up to fill that void. The day we have a local consumption model where we are designing products for our own problems, and not fixing back offices of the world we would start inventing products. The worry though is even the big companies that we have want to cash in their coffers by cheap labor model and not delve into products. Even worse they are not a niche company in consulting as well. I mean when was the last time a Boeing Executive shouted to his colleague - We need somebody to permanently fix this, lets get TCS :cantstop: Thats probably one answer to the puzzle, although I am sure there are other reasons too.

[maggot_brain]

this is a racist article coming from a jew(who have had trouble assimilating for millennia in other countries and formed ghettos everywhere they went) .he is expressing his despair now because one or two generations of indians have decided to congregate at a certain city? .Time should be ashamed of publishing this article let alone employ an obvious racist.i am saddened to read this.

Firstly, the article is obviously satirical in nature. Secondly when it comes to the History of the Jews, you haven't got a bloody clue what you're talking about.

[cowboysfan]

Firstly' date=' the article is obviously satirical in nature. Secondly when it comes to the History of the Jews, you haven't got a bloody clue what you're talking about.[/quote'] this is shoddy writing and ill conceived humor.If you really think its funny then you must have a great sense of humor,i bet you laugh at all of Rush limbaugh's jokes.also please enlighten me on the "history of Jews".I would have thought a Jewish person would foreseen how this "humor" piece would offend most people of Indian descent in America.I can take a good joke but this is not it.

[bharathh]

My personal take on that is we lack consumption model. By that I mean you can not invent a solution if you do not know what the problem is? Think credit cards. If you are designing a solution for credit card you have to know how it works. We started using credit card a full 15-20 years after it was invented. So no wonders we are busy doing programming for a product that is already there. You can expand that to most applications. Google, iPhone, ERPs are/were invented because there was a need and someone, a company, stepped up to fill that void. The day we have a local consumption model where we are designing products for our own problems, and not fixing back offices of the world we would start inventing products. The worry though is even the big companies that we have want to cash in their coffers by cheap labor model and not delve into products. Even worse they are not a niche company in consulting as well. I mean when was the last time a Boeing Executive shouted to his colleague - We need somebody to permanently fix this, lets get TCS :cantstop: Thats probably one answer to the puzzle, although I am sure there are other reasons too.

http://www.techquark.com/2010/01/young-indian-innovators-in-technology.html Stop it with the back office stuff already! There are plenty of people who are willing to innovate. India was slow to adopt credit cards because our banking industry took time to make a leap into the 21st century.