Was Hawk Eye representation of Ponting's dismissal accurate?

[thevortex]

Iam ONLY talking about the fact that there was such a thing as "Independent Testing". Whether that was succesfull or not in validating is a different aspect. From your posts it appears that no such testing was even carried out.

You forgot to mention about Ponting's huge stride :). The key there is - according to Hawkeye's website. I dont want self certification. And I dont want vague mentions of 'Independent testing'. We need and should demand 'Independent testing'. Cricket deserves that. How many here disagree with that? Do you want to find out?

[Clarke]

Vortex, did u catch Samaraweera's dismissal ? If not, please catch up with the highlights. Hawk Eye said it was just out, umpire of course did, Arun Lal had his doubts on the first look, Tony Greig interestingly suggests that he wouldn't mind it if the batsman was given the benefit of the doubt .. is it good to be so indecisive on matters which decide the team that is victorious ?

[Guest BossBhai]

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[thevortex]

Vortex, did u catch Samaraweera's dismissal ? If not, please catch up with the highlights. Hawk Eye said it was just out, umpire of course did, Arun Lal had his doubts on the first look, Tony Greig interestingly suggests that he wouldn't mind it if the batsman was given the benefit of the doubt .. is it good to be so indecisive on matters which decide the team that is victorious ?

I must admit that I did not see this. But my question is precisely that. Why should we be so indecisive? If there is doubt, give it to the batsmen. Thats the way it has always worked. We run the risk of changing the whole nature of the game and therefore the statistics and the records that typify the game!

[thevortex]

I actually posted snapshots and provided explanations as to why it appears as plumb ... unlike you who only talks. Have you posted any visuals to back up any of your claims yet over these months ?

Get this. I will NOT post any visuals. You know why? I do not watch cricket over the internet. In fact I distinctly remember explaining this to you earlier. But it seems to have escaped your memory. Or attention. And let me hear this again. Ponting put in a huge stride in this case? Why dont you post a poll and see how many here agree with that?!!

So you are saying H/E is lying on their website and the photo is fake?

My point is simple. Put it out in the public. Put the report. Not the rumour of a report. You are the one who is willing to believe anything and everything that Hawkeye says. Not everybody needs to bow down to Hawkeye that way.

Who was the 3rd party that certified your umpires ? Where is that certificate ? You dont seem to be as demanding when it is the umpires any chance this is because of your utter bias ? If you want to go down the route of this 3rd party business then lets see that certificate for your umpires because they have been in business without any such certification far before H/E. So where is that certificate ?

Again missing the point are you not? I dont think this section deserves a response. Sadly. As I have answered this and similar questions again and again.

[Jersey #10]

Ponting's stride/movement has nothing to do with the decision. The guy completely miss read the line of the ball. It should have been given not out because the ball hit his back leg which was right in front of the leg stump while ball would have continued traveling across the stumps and ended up out side leg. Very close call hence you can't blame ump for such marginal calls.

[Guest BossBhai]

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[The Outsider]

That's a pretty good still shot, Boss. If you or someone can draw a line connecting the ball image on the pitch and on Ponting's thigh and extend it to the line of the stumps it would show the trajectory the ball would have taken. Eyeballing, it looks like it would have missed or just clipped the leg stump, which is what Hawk Eye showed.

[Gunner_Mania]

Australia captain Ricky Ponting has called on the ICC to make sure the Umpire Decision Review System is used in every series, after the Pakistan board did not put the system in place for the neutral series in England. As the "home" board, the PCB is in charge of such matters, and the UDRS will be used for the upcoming Pakistan-England series.

http://www.cricinfo.com/pakistan-v-australia-2010/content/current/story/468056.html Apologies if this has already been posted elsewhere.

[Guest BossBhai]

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[The Outsider]

Me drawing anything on that image is futile because I obviously do not have a independent 3rd party certification :--D. However I have all snapshots from MPlayer for this dismissal. I have attached the one with H/E's view from front on angle in post#39. But heres one from top view. Yo ucan also find the H/E images on the cricinfo scorecard under the Hawkeye tab.

I've seen the Hawk Eye projection. Where I was coming from was that since vortex and other Hawk Eye critics do agree that Hawk Eye is fine for actual events, but mainly have reservations with it's predictive part, so to compare the Hawk Eye projection which you have shown in this post with what one would get through our projection of simply connecting the two actual spots where the ball is shown and extrapolating it backwards. In essence that is all Hawk Eye and umpire are both claiming to do. I'll do it in the evening from my home computer.

[Guest BossBhai]

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[ludhianvi]

That's a pretty good still shot, Boss. If you or someone can draw a line connecting the ball image on the pitch and on Ponting's thigh and extend it to the line of the stumps it would show the trajectory the ball would have taken. Eyeballing, it looks like it would have missed or just clipped the leg stump, which is what Hawk Eye showed.

You mean like this? The blue line is from the outside of the ball and the black line is from the centre. Just a clarification, obviously this is not 100% accurate, just to get an idea. I dont think this this takes into consideration the perspective and assumes the ball traveled in a straight line. Obviously the Hawkeye has cameras positioned at different angles and so it can project a 3d image from different angles and should be able to track the projection after each instance. I'll see if I can get footage from the front and side in the evening.

[The Outsider]

Yeah, thanks ludhi. Saved me the work! There are all the camera angle caveats for sure, but those would be most evident in the height factor. I was primarily trying to see the line of the ball without bothering too much about the height, in which camera angle and the change from a linear path to a parabolic one due to gravity won't be of much importance. Another thing I just noticed is the movement of the keeper towards the leg side. That is usually a reliable measure of a ball going down leg stump.

[Guest BossBhai]

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[Spider]

The photo above is not a good representation of what happened, you can see the ball as it has deflected off to the leg side and in that time Pontings body would have moved further to the off side. To get the correct impact point you need a photo at the point of impact between the ball and pad. Movement of the batsman after impact has a huge bearing on the projected angle of the ball in the final analysis.

[TumTum]

The photo above is not a good representation of what happened' date=' you can see the ball as it has deflected off to the leg side and in that time Pontings body would have moved further to the off side. To get the correct impact point you need a photo at the point of impact between the ball and pad. Movement of the batsman after impact has a huge bearing on the projected angle of the ball in the final analysis.[/quote'] That is at the point of impact. Ponting's stride made the hotspot contact at the middle or off stump later on.

[thevortex]

Then take your advice and dont pester others to comment on such things which you dont agree to even when evidence from pictures stare at you. What is the point of this discussion if you are going to bluntly lie and say you dont see a stride ?

Now your comprehension is being called into play! There is a difference between a stride and a huge stride, is there not? Do you want to get called out on that? Really?

For your benefit I have attached another snapshot if you couldnt make out from the previous snapshots. Yes I know the ball hit him on his thighs but take a look at how far he has pressed forward and where his back foot is. But going by the age old thumb rules of "charm" that you yourself swear by these things would be considered as things that would go in favor of batsmen. And anychance you are going to comment on the camera angle explanation I did in the previous posts where I posted the 2 snapshots?

I saw it live. And I saw both the Hawkeye version of it and the Hot Spot version of it. And I have made it no secret in saying that the ball would have crashed into leg stump. And not miss the stumps by the margin that Hawkeye showed it to be doing.

:banghead: How many times do I have to tell you that I dont have control over what ICC and H/E do? All we can do is evalutate them based on live evidence. Do you have the requisite maturity to debate this based on live evidence ONLY or is that too much to expect from you ? And dont worry about finding evidence just point me to the match. Theres 2 test matches going on live right now surely you would be able to find ONE measly howler from about 600 overs of Test match cricket considering how you make it out to be a useless piece of gadgetry.

Again missing the entire point. Proof ought to have been there before they implement. You are doing a post mortem trying to evaluate replays and such. Remember the adage of prevention being better than cure?

Neither do your posts that bang about how you will not budge untill you see the original certificate with a seal from God. If you continue to bleat about "certification" I will do the exact same about umpires. Neither do you have certificates for umpires nor do i for H/E. But we both have access to evidence in the form of Video footage to evaluate both systems. I have posted my share and have offered to do the posting on your behalf IF you could point me to the Match and over where the supposed H/E howlers have occured. Its been 6 months since I asked. If you want to wait we can wait but atleast please tell how many more Test matches you need that constitiute a decent sample size.

Not everybody can be an absolute brainwashed fan of Hawkeye like you, Bossbhai. Understand that others may still want evidence you know. Something which says that what Hawkeye says is actually correct. And you want people doing that analysis to have actually played cricket or to know about the game if at all possible.

[thevortex]

I actually appreciate that others are having a meaningful conversation about the imagery in question. I am sure one among you would notice the variation between your own projection and the manner in which it was depicted by Hawkeye. Allow me to point out one small thing. About the point of impact. It would be quintessential to freeze the frame at exactly the point when the ball hits Ponting or even an instant earlier. This is to ensure that you dont get capture the moment when the ball has hit the batsman's thigh and already started sliding down leg. This is precisely why I place a lot of stock in what Hot Spot showed. From the point of first contact which was when heat was generated. Can anybody help me out by posting the Hot Spot version here? Thanks in advance.

[thevortex]

I thought I read somebody saying that the ball struck Ponting on the back leg!! Not sure in which thread. But that is just not possible.