Composition of our bowling attack for WC - Seamers Vs Spinners

[Ram]

'strike seamer'.... Now that's a misnomer in subcontinental conditions. If there is one thing that should have become to fans after our two previous home odi series against Lanka and the saffies, it is that we are not going to win the world cup with our 'strike seaming' options. In fact our pacers could be one of the potential reasons that could cost us the cup, along with our fielding and lower order batting. If we are winning the cup, it'll be coz of our top/middle order batting and containing spin bowling in the middle overs.

[zen]

'strike seamer'.... Now that's a misnomer in subcontinental conditions.

really?! "a seamer can't be a strike bowler in sub-continent conditions" is in fact a misnomer :winky:

[Ram]

really?! "a seamer can't be a strike bowler in sub-continent conditions" is in fact a misnomer :winky:

Dude please dong give me the classic 'statsguru argument' of 'oh look at the strike rates of our Seamers, it's better than that of spinners'. Of course the seamers tend to have better strike rates because they invariably bowl at the death, which is when opposition batsmen go for it and wickets falls. That doesn't make them 'strike bowlers'. If anything the more apprpriate term to describe them would be 'stricken bowlers'. You obviously did not watch our two previous home odi series against Lanka and south Africa. Our seamers were absolutely toothless I can't believe that after seeing guys like sreesanth and tyagi simply being carted around like amateur club bowlers, you could possibly look at that situation and say 'Yes, the way forward at home is more pace bowling'. It got so worse, even Zak looked listless. From your stats alone, when was the last time Zak averaged 6 RPO?

[zen]

Dude please dong give me the classic 'statsguru argument' of 'oh look at the strike rates of our Seamers, it's better than that of spinners'. Of course the seamers tend to have better strike rates because they invariably bowl at the death, which is when opposition batsmen go for it and wickets falls. That doesn't make them 'strike bowlers'. If anything the more apprpriate term to describe them would be 'stricken bowlers'. You obviously did not watch our two previous home odi series against Lanka and south Africa. Our seamers were absolutely toothless I can't believe that after seeing guys like sreesanth and tyagi simply being carted around like amateur club bowlers, you could possibly look at that situation and say 'Yes, the way forward at home is more pace bowling'. It got so worse, even Zak looked listless. From your stats alone, when was the last time Zak averaged 6 RPO?

Are you implying that if spinners bowled at death, their strike rates would improve /be better than the seamers? And also the spinners would have better economy rate doing what the seamers are doing (bowling at PP/death? If not then I don't see any points being made in your above post. If spinners can't be effective doing what seamers have to do then it shows why we need to go in with the 3 best seamers (and use them as a strike bowlers rather than just trying to stop the flow of runs) we have and then the rest of the combination almost sorts itself out (along w/ the point I made) :winky: Btw, I just checked the scorecard of a game going on in the subcontinent. SL is 82/5 and seamers have picked up 4 of those wkts :--D

[Ram]

Are you implying that if spinners bowled at death' date=' their strike rates would improve /be better than the seamers? And also the spinners would have better economy rate doing what the seamers are doing (bowling at PP/death? [/quote'] I did not claim the spinners would have a better economy than our seamers, bowling at the death/PP, but yes, your argument about the better strike rates of our seamers justifying a strategy of a more pace bowling oriented attack for our ODIs is completely invalid. The strike rates of our seamers is marginally better than our spinners not because wickets fell when they were bowling, but they happened to be bowling when wickets fell (and I sincerely hope you can discern b/w the two)

Btw, I just checked the scorecard of a game going on in the subcontinent. SL is 82/5 and seamers have picked up 4 of those wkts :--D

While you’re at it, you should check out the scorecards of our two previous ODI series against Lanka and South Africa at home, the very same location where the world cup is going to be held next year. We can talk then.

[zen]

I did not claim the spinners would have a better economy than our seamers' date=' bowling at the death/PP, but yes, your argument about the better strike rates of our seamers justifying a strategy of a more pace bowling oriented attack for our ODIs is completely invalid. The strike rates of our seamers is marginally better than our spinners not because wickets fell when they were bowling, but they happened to be bowling when wickets fell (and I sincerely hope you can discern b/w the two) [/quote'] If you can't say for sure that spinners wouldn't have a better SR/Economy doing the same stuff that seamers do then there is no way you can invalid my claim as your argument is that seamers have a better SR because they happen to bowl at that time (well if the spinners bowl at that time then they happen to bowl at time too and should achieve similar results based on what you suggest) :winky: And I don't have more pace bowlers oriented attack, just 3 seamers, which we are playing now! What I have suggested is that we use our best seamers for that purpose and encourage them to go for wkts rather than just look for containment. What I have suggested is that we play a wkt taking spinner and let some of the part timers play the 2nd spinners role!

While you’re at it, you should check out the scorecards of our two previous ODI series against Lanka and South Africa at home, the very same location where the world cup is going to be held next year. We can talk then.

You ability to grasp things are laughable. I made that comment in response to your claim that strike seamer is a misnomer in subcontinet conditions. And I did provide you with the stats but you said you don't want to go by that (or something along that line) and now yo want me to check the stats, kid! May be you want to talk about Sree and Tyagi to make your point, how wonderful :haha:

[Ram]

If you can't say for sure that spinners wouldn't have a better SR/Economy doing the same stuff that seamers do then there is no way you can invalid my claim as your argument is that seamers have a better SR because they happen to bowl at that time (well if the spinners bowl at that time then they happen to bowl at time too and should achieve similar results based on what you suggest) :winky:

Ok, we’re going around in circles now. Let me make this plain and clear, for the final time. If you think I am making a case for spinners to bowl during the opening overs/PP overs/death overs, that you’re sorely wrong. If you read what I wrote carefully, I am not arguing for or against the spinners, but am simply refuting your ability to make a case for the pacers, based on misleading stats.

And I don't have more pace bowlers oriented attack, just 3 seamers, which we are playing now! What I have suggested is that we use our best seamers for that purpose and encourage them to go for wkts rather than just look for containment. What I have suggested is that we play a wkt taking spinner and let some of the part timers play the 2nd spinners role!

Lol, you speak as though there’s a conveyor line of world class pacers waiting in the wings who are capable of wickets as they wish in Indian conditions. As I said, you obviously did not watch our two most recent home ODI series. If you had, you wouldn’t have said ‘Lets encourage our seamers to go for wickets..’.

You ability to grasp things are laughable. I made that comment in response to your claim that strike seamer is a misnomer in subcontinet conditions. And I did provide you with the stats but you said you don't want to go by that (or something along that line) and now yo want me to check the stats, kid! May be you want to talk about Sree and Tyagi to make your point, how wonderful :haha:

And your ability to make shallow arguments based on ONE MATCH is equally laughable as well. How about the previous match, where the same set of bowlers went for a near 300 run total? Or maybe the two previous series’ against South Africa and Lanka, were the pacers were treated like net bowlers? And why should I NOT talk about the Sreesanth and Tyagi? Last time I checked, they were part of that ‘famed fast bowling line-up’ that you claim India boasts of, in the sub continental conditions. :haha:

[zen]

Ok' date=' we’re going around in circles now. Let me make this plain and clear, for the final time. If you think I am making a case for spinners to bowl during the opening overs/PP overs/death overs, that you’re sorely wrong. If you read what I wrote carefully, I am not arguing for or against the spinners, but am simply refuting your ability to make a case for the pacers, based on misleading stats. [/quote'] Nah I didn't imply that you are making a case for spinners to bowl during PP/Death BUT to say that those stats are misleading (based on your laughable 'they happen to' argument), you have to show that spinners would have done a better job! Unless, you have a different plan, refuting my stats is a pointless cause :winky:

Lol, you speak as though there’s a conveyor line of world class pacers waiting in the wings who are capable of wickets as they wish in Indian conditions. As I said, you obviously did not watch our two most recent home ODI series. If you had, you wouldn’t have said ‘Lets encourage our seamers to go for wickets..’.

Nah that wasn't implied. But anyway its good to see another example of your poor comprehension skills

And your ability to make shallow arguments based on ONE MATCH is equally laughable as well. How about the previous match, where the same set of bowlers went for a near 300 run total? Or maybe the two previous series’ against South Africa and Lanka, were the pacers were treated like net bowlers?

I did provide stats for since Aug 1 2009 for home games but you wanted to discard them because they probably don't show what you want to :P .... And appears as if you forget Nehra's bowling in Asia Cup, which was held in the subcontinent

And why should I NOT talk about the Sreesanth and Tyagi? Last time I checked, they were part of that ‘famed fast bowling line-up’ that you claim India boasts of, in the sub continental conditions. :haha:

Because, I have already listed the bowlers that I want to use in ODIs: Zak, Nehra, Ishant/PK Didn't know that was so difficult to grasp :P

[Ram]

Nah I didn't imply that you are making a case for spinners to bowl during PP/Death BUT to say that those stats are misleading (based on your laughable 'they happen to' argument), you have to show that spinners would have done a better job! Unless, you have a different plan, refuting my stats is a pointless cause :winky:

You want to talk about stats? A’right lets talk about stats buddy. :winky: This is the stats table that you originally posted;

Bowler	Matches	Wkts	Economy	SR
Seamers				
Nehra	13	16	6.56	39.5
PK	10	8	6.01	55
Zak	5	7	6.22	38.5
Ishant	6	7	6.66	36
Spinners				
Bhajji	11	14	4.66	44.1
Jadeja	14	15	4.86	44.6
YP	3	4	5.31	43.5

And this is the subsequent claim that you made;

If you look at the SR column, you will find that the seamers have done a better job than the spinners at picking up wkts.

I don’t know where you learnt your math, but on an average, the pacers have a strike rate of 42.5 balls/wicket, while the spinners have a SR of 44.06 balls/wicket. And you call that a better job? Especially considering that the average economy rate of the pacers has been 6.63 and the spinner 4.94? So, even by your own stats, your argument that the ‘pacers have done a better job in picking up wickets’ is a failure. And why are Sreesanth’s and Tyagi’s stats not included in there? So essentially pick and chose the ‘best’ of our pacers and ignored the worst performers? :haha: I bet you, if we include those two in the table as well, the stats for pacers will look even worse. Or are you going to come up with the ‘Oh, I am only going to talk about the pacers that I want in the team and ignore the rest’ knowing fully well, that someone like Zak and Nehra have had a long history of injuries and its important that we include the back-up options in our discussions as well? So seriously, what stats are you gloating about that you say, makes a claim in favor of our pacers in home conditions? If I am given a choice of choosing b/w someone who takes a wicket every 43 balls but concedes 6.63 RPO or someone who took a wicket every 44 balls but conceded only 4.94 RPO, I’d know who I will choose. Do you?

Nah that wasn't implied. But anyway its good to see another example of your poor comprehension skills

These are your own words;

Go in with 3 strike seamers (don't judge them solely on the economy as they usually bowl during PP and at the death), a wicket taking spinner (that's why there is a need to try out someone like Ashwin to see if he can be one). For the imp #7 position, go in with a specialist batsman, if we fail to find a decent all-rounder or a wkt taking bowler. As they say, if your bowling is weak strengthen the batting and vice versa.

Now, tell me If I am missing something. But who is the magical strike seamers that you’re talking about? Or in your own wonderful little world, a ‘strike seamer’ is someone who concedes a ridiculous 6.6 RPO and has a mediocre SR of 43? That is ‘strike bowling’ according to you? Those are horrendous stats, which would have gotten only worse, had you not conveniently ignored Sreesanth and Tyagi from your list.

I did provide stats for since Aug 1 2009 for home games but you wanted to discard them because they probably don't show what you want to :P .... And appears as if you forget Nehra's bowling in Asia Cup, which was held in the subcontinent

I did not discard them at all. If anything, I probably should have paid more attention to them, considering that you have been magnanimous enough to post stats that have ended up debunking your own claim. :P

Because, I have already listed the bowlers that I want to use in ODIs: Zak, Nehra, Ishant/PK Didn't know that was so difficult to grasp :P

That wouldn’t be so difficult to grasp, if you only were living in your world of wishful thinking where all the first choice seamers are fit throughout. But, if you break out of your bubble into the real world, you’d probably realize that seamers like Zak and Nehra have a undeniable history of chronic injuruies and when you’re trying to formulate a strategy based on pace bowling, you have to take into account the back-up options as well.

[zen]

You want to talk about stats? A’right lets talk about stats buddy. :winky: This is the stats table that you originally posted;

Bowler	Matches	Wkts	Economy	SR
Seamers				
Nehra	13	16	6.56	39.5
PK	10	8	6.01	55
Zak	5	7	6.22	38.5
Ishant	6	7	6.66	36
Spinners				
Bhajji	11	14	4.66	44.1
Jadeja	14	15	4.86	44.6
YP	3	4	5.31	43.5

And this is the subsequent claim that you made; I don’t know where you learnt your math, but on an average, the pacers have a strike rate of 42.5 balls/wicket, while the spinners have a SR of 44.06 balls/wicket. And you call that a better job? Especially considering that the average economy rate of the pacers has been 6.63 and the spinner 4.94? So, even by your own stats, your argument that the ‘pacers have done a better job in picking up wickets’ is a failure. And why are Sreesanth’s and Tyagi’s stats not included in there? So essentially pick and chose the ‘best’ of our pacers and ignored the worst performers? :haha: I bet you, if we include those two in the table as well, the stats for pacers will look even worse. Or are you going to come up with the ‘Oh, I am only going to talk about the pacers that I want in the team and ignore the rest’ knowing fully well, that someone like Zak and Nehra have had a long history of injuries and its important that we include the back-up options in our discussions as well? So seriously, what stats are you gloating about that you say, makes a claim in favor of our pacers in home conditions? If I am given a choice of choosing b/w someone who takes a wicket every 43 balls but concedes 6.63 RPO or someone who took a wicket every 44 balls but conceded only 4.94 RPO, I’d know who I will choose. Do you? These are your own words; Now, tell me If I am missing something. But who is the magical strike seamers that you’re talking about? Or in your own wonderful little world, a ‘strike seamer’ is someone who concedes a ridiculous 6.6 RPO and has a mediocre SR of 43? That is ‘strike bowling’ according to you? Those are horrendous stats, which would have gotten only worse, had you not conveniently ignored Sreesanth and Tyagi from your list.

Appears as if I have stepped on your tail :haha: .... Anyways, time for some spoon feeding: 1. Those stats are about key bowlers who are likely to be part of the WC team (see the thread's title) 2. It's explained that seamers bowl during PP and at death, while the spinners usually bowl during middle overs. Thus the difference in their economy 3. It's a comparative study based on the resources that we have. So the seamers are strike bowlers compared to our spinners Now make a connection of the 3 points above and see if you can grasp the point :--D In short, the entire argument and selection is based with WC in mind and only considers key players, who are likely to be selected, and based on their relative strengths :winky:

I did not discard them at all. If anything, I probably should have paid more attention to them, considering that you have been magnanimous enough to post stats that have ended up debunking your own claim. :P

If you see the list, Zak, Nehra and Ishant have better SR than the spinners listed :--D

That wouldn’t be so difficult to grasp, if you only were living in your world of wishful thinking where all the first choice seamers are fit throughout. But, if you break out of your bubble into the real world, you’d probably realize that seamers like Zak and Nehra have a undeniable history of chronic injuruies and when you’re trying to formulate a strategy based on pace bowling, you have to take into account the back-up options as well

keep digging till you find something, kid :P

[Ram]

Ok, so here’s the stat table that Rett does NOT want you to see.

Bowler	Matches	Wkts	Economy	SR
Seamers				
Nehra	13	16	6.56	39.5
PK	10	8	6.01	55
Zak	5	7	6.22	38.5
Ishant	6	7	6.66	36
[B]Tyagi     2           1           5.10      87
Sreesanth 3        4           8.20     30[/B]
Spinners				
Bhajji	11	14	4.66	44.1
Jadeja	14	15	4.86	44.6
YP	3	4	5.31	43.5

Last time I checked, both Sreesanth and Tyagi were seam bowlers as well and they played ODIs at home as well, in the time frame that he listed. Now, do you want to see how the numbers stack up now? Now, the seamers together have a combined strike rate of 47.833 and an economy rate of 6.63, while the spinners put together have a strike rate of 44 and an economy of 4.94. Yes, as far as I can tell from those numbers, we have lots of strike seamers in our team and pace is the way forward in India, for the world cup. :cantstop:

[zen]

Ok, so here’s the stat table that Rett does NOT want you to see.

Bowler	Matches	Wkts	Economy	SR
Seamers				
Nehra	13	16	6.56	39.5
PK	10	8	6.01	55
Zak	5	7	6.22	38.5
Ishant	6	7	6.66	36
[B]Tyagi     2           1           5.10      87
Sreesanth 3        4           8.20     30[/B]
Spinners				
Bhajji	11	14	4.66	44.1
Jadeja	14	15	4.86	44.6
YP	3	4	5.31	43.5

Last time I checked, both Sreesanth and Tyagi were seam bowlers as well and they played ODIs at home as well, in the time frame that he listed. Now, do you want to see how the numbers stack up now? Now, the seamers together have a combined strike rate of 47.833 and an economy rate of 6.63, while the spinners put together have a strike rate of 44 and an economy of 4.94. Yes, as far as I can tell from those numbers, we have lots of strike seamers in our team and pace is the way forward in India, for the world cup. :cantstop:

oh boy, you are shooting your own leg .... improve your comprehension skills, lad :hysterical:

[Ram]

Appears as if I have stepped on your tail :haha: .... Anyways, time for some spoon feeding: 1. Those stats are about key bowlers who are likely to be part of the WC team (see the thread's title)

You first make a case for a ‘strike seam bowling’ attack to begin with, when its clearly obvious that our pacers HAVE NOT been able to do any striking or seaming at home in the last 18 months. That’s your first failure Then you include only the pacers you handpicked to do a stat analysis so generic that ultimately ended up contradicting your own claim. That’s your second failure.

2. It's explained that seamers bowl during PP and at death' date=' while the spinners usually bowl during middle overs. Thus the difference in their economy [/quote'] Here’s a tip for you - Tell me something I don’t know. You have essentially repeated what I posted. But its good though - least now you cannot contest that the spinners don’t have better economy rates. :winky:

3. It's a comparative study based on the resources that we have. So the seamers are strike bowlers compared to our spinners

Huh what? What is that even supposed to mean? Comparative BS based some relative BS? The spinners have better economies than the seamers, they have better Strike rates than the seamers. That’s an indisputable FACT. What’s with all comparative/relative nonsense?

In short' date=' the entire argument and selection is based with WC in mind and only considers key players, who are likely to be selected, and based on their relative strengths :winky: [/quote'] Once again, the ‘relative’ mumbo jumbo? Is that your way of conceding ‘my bad, the stats have actually proven me wrong’? :cantstop: You handpicked players whom you want chosen in the team, even though many of them have a documented history of injuries.

If you see the list' date=' Zak, Nehra and Ishant have better SR than the spinners listed :--D[/quote'] Yes, a better strike of ONE BALL LESS/wicket, when compared to our spinners My god, that is so so much better. :cantstop: But to be honest, this is what happens if you analyze your cricket from cricinfo statsguru (never mind that even that analysis turned out to be wrong). You will come up with all sorts of fantasy terms like ‘strike seamer’.. No one who saw our two previous home ODI series (and that is what we should really talk about, because they were two good teams and the world cup is going to be held in India), will come out of it saying ‘Yes, seam bowling is the way to go..’, especially if those are kinds of conditions we are likely to encounter again, during the world cup. Our pacers, Zak included, were completely listless, shocking and appalling.

[zen]

You first make a case for a ‘strike seam bowling’ attack to begin with, when its clearly obvious that our pacers HAVE NOT been able to do any striking or seaming at home in the last 18 months. That’s your first failure Then you include only the pacers you handpicked to do a stat analysis so generic that ultimately ended up contradicting your own claim. That’s your second failure. Here’s a tip for you - Tell me something I don’t know. You have essentially repeated what I posted. But its good though - least now you cannot contest that the spinners don’t have better economy rates. :winky: Huh what? What is that even supposed to mean? Comparative BS based some relative BS? The spinners have better economies than the seamers, they have better Strike rates than the seamers. That’s an indisputable FACT. What’s with all comparative/relative nonsense? Once again, the ‘relative’ mumbo jumbo? Is that your way of conceding ‘my bad, the stats have actually proven me wrong’? :cantstop: You handpicked players whom you want chosen in the team, even though many of them have a documented history of injuries. Yes, a better strike of ONE BALL LESS/wicket, when compared to our spinners My god, that is so so much better. :cantstop: But to be honest, this is what happens if you analyze your cricket from cricinfo statsguru (never mind that even that analysis turned out to be wrong). You will come up with all sorts of fantasy terms like ‘strike seamer’.. No one who saw our two previous home ODI series (and that is what we should really talk about, because they were two good teams and the world cup is going to be held in India), will come out of it saying ‘Yes, seam bowling is the way to go..’, especially if those are kinds of conditions we are likely to encounter again, during the world cup. Our pacers, Zak included, were completely listless, shocking and appalling.

omg, he still didn't get it despite my spoon feeding! :hysterical: Anyways keep trying, let see what else did you understand (and thus not understand) :P

[Ram]

omg, he still didn't get it despite my spoon feeding! :hysterical: Anyways keep trying, let see what else did you understand (and thus not understand) :P

And you can keep dreaming about those elusive ‘strike seamers’ who average 6.6 RPO at a strike rate of 47. :cantstop: Next time, watch the game before you start commenting. There's only so much cricinfo statsguru can tell you. :P

[zen]

And you can keep dreaming about those elusive ‘strike seamers’ who average 6.6 RPO at a strike rate of 47. :cantstop: Next time, watch the game before you start commenting. There's only so much cricinfo statsguru can tell you. :P

Anything is better than actually watching the game and still not having a clue :winky: Do Zak, Nehra and Ishant have a SR of 47 of late (see the table I provided for dates) when playing in India? :stewie:

[Ram]

Anything is better than actually watching the game and still not having a clue :winky: Do Zak, Nehra and Ishant have a SR of 47 of late (see the table I provided for dates) when playing in India? :stewie:

No, they dont have strike rate of 47, but theirs is 38.66, at an economy rate of 6.48. And you think thats a good thing? :cantstop: And I see how you've once again conveniently stayed away from mentioning Praveen Kumar, even though you had him in your original list. Why, did it occur to you that one of the original strike seamer had a SR of 55? Lets include him as well (after all, he was in your original list ). In that case the combined strike rates of our seam bowler would be 42.4, at an economy rate of 6.36. And I love how you keep including Zak in your list as well, so confident he shall play, even though he has played only 5 ODIs at home in the last 18 months and missed the rest due to injury. So, lets say the our bowling attack for our ODIs at home comprised purely of the strike seaming attack that Rett keeps flaunting, here are some fun facts to chew (if you go by the very same facts that Rett accidentally posted here); If all the 50 overs was to be bowled by the incredible strike seaming attack that we have, then the Indian team would concede over 300 EVERY SINGLE time they stepped on the field. In fact, on an average, they'd concede 330 runs. This strike seaming attack would also never dismiss the opposition batsmen. In fact, the most they would take would be 7 wickets. But the fun doesnt stop here. Our strike seaming attack has been SOOOO effective in home ODIs in the recent past that our captain, coach and other players have never really had the need to feel concerned about them, which is why, you constantly keep hearing them say things like; Seamers not grabbing opportunities - Kirsten (July 18, 2010)

Gary Kirsten, India's coach, has expressed disappointment over how few Indian fast bowlers have added to the bare cupboard, or shown the promise to be given a long run. "In the last two years and seven months that I have been with the team, we have tried 15 or 16 seamers in one-day cricket," Kirsten said. "That's a lot of options. We need to settle on the few who can get through.

http://www.cricinfo.com/sri-lanka-v-india-2010/content/story/467878.html Indian pace bowling needs to improve before World Cup: Ganguly (11th August)

Sourav Ganguly on Tuesday said the Indian fast bowling needs a lot of catching up to do before World Cup and the former India captain put the onus on bowling coach Eric Simmons to motivate the youngsters in absence of the experienced Zaheer Khan. The Indian pacers lacked penetration especially in the first Test that led coach Gary Kirsten to admit that finding the ideal fast bowling unit for World Cup was proving to be a challenge.

http://www.keralanext.com/news/?id=788707 Dhoni calls for bowlers to lift (Jan 7, 2010)

After India conceded 296 runs against Bangladesh on Thursday, MS Dhoni has demanded better performances from his bowlers. The lacklustre effort in the field didn't prevent India from coasting to a comfortable win, but Dhoni said the bowling needs to be better if the team is to rise to the top of the rankings. "If we want to be in the number one spot, if we want to be consistent then we need to improve our performance in all departments, especially bowling," he said after the six-wicket victory. "I want the bowlers to deliver when needed."

http://www.cricinfo.com/tri-bdesh2010/content/story/443032.html India's yearning for yorkers - Jan 6, 2010

"Good yorkers and slower ones are always going to help you win the games but I am not too disappointed as it was tough to bowl yorkers here with the dew," Dhoni said. "But yes, we don't bowl too many yorkers even otherwise. It can't happen overnight. We have bowled yorkers well in patches and I would like to think we are improving but we have to keep practising. On wickets like these, and with all the dew, we have to rely a lot on variation of pace rather than line and length. Hopefully, the bowlers will get it right in the next games." When was the last time you remember an Indian bowler bowling yorkers at will? It's an inexplicable gap in India's otherwise well-stocked arsenal, one brought into sharper focus on Tuesday when Chanaka Welegedara sent down two screaming yorkers to knock out the stumps of Suresh Raina and Gautam Gambhir.

http://www.cricinfo.com/tri-bdesh2010/content/story/442796.html Wow, we must have some strike seaming attack, if so many of our players are so confident of it. :cantstop: But see, this is what happens when you base all your arguments on pieces of numbers that you can find on the internet. In fact, the listless performance of our pace bowlers in ODIs has been one of the biggest burning topics here on for a long time now. But hey, who cares about the reality right, as long as your can run some queries in a db (which also btw, prove you wrong..)

[zen]

No, they dont have strike rate of 47, but theirs is 38.66, at an economy rate of 6.48. And you think thats a good thing? :cantstop: And I see how you've once again conveniently stayed away from mentioning Praveen Kumar, even though you had him in your original list. Why, did it occur to you that one of the original strike seamer had a SR of 55? Lets include him as well (after all, he was in your original list ). In that case the combined strike rates of our seam bowler would be 42.4, at an economy rate of 6.36. And I love how you keep including Zak in your list as well, so confident he shall play, even though he has played only 5 ODIs at home in the last 18 months and missed the rest due to injury. So, lets say the our bowling attack for our ODIs at home comprised purely of the strike seaming attack that Rett keeps flaunting, here are some fun facts to chew (if you go by the very same facts that Rett accidentally posted here); If all the 50 overs was to be bowled by the incredible strike seaming attack that we have, then the Indian team would concede over 300 EVERY SINGLE time they stepped on the field. In fact, on an average, they'd concede 330 runs. This strike seaming attack would also never dismiss the opposition batsmen. In fact, the most they would take would be 7 wickets. But the fun doesnt stop here. Our strike seaming attack has been SOOOO effective in home ODIs in the recent past that our captain, coach and other players have never really had the need to feel concerned about them, which is why, you constantly keep hearing them say things like;

With the kind of points you make, you would be laughed out of a room :haha: So the SR of Zak, Nehra and Ishant is NOT 47. Thank you that makes my point on your lack of understanding and the laughable arguments that you make. Case closed :--D For the rest of your blah blah stuff, it's pointless as you haven't been able to show how the spinners would do when faced with bowling in the same situation as the seamers :winky: Just to show how your points lack common sense, let's look at your quote below:

If all the 50 overs was to be bowled by the incredible strike seaming attack that we have, then the Indian team would concede over 300 EVERY SINGLE time they stepped on the field. In fact, on an average, they'd concede 330 runs.

That^ totally ignores the fact that seamers bowl during PP and at the death, whicle spinners usually bowl during the middle overs. What you did was take the economy rate and projected that over 50 overs. That would be like taking the RR during PP and then projecting that over 50 overs. So if a team is 120 after 15, you would say that they would get 400 after 50. And you think you are making some kind of a point by stating this. That's pathetic! :haha: As I said keep digging till you find something! :P

[Ram]

With the kind of points you make, you would be laughed out of a room :haha: So the SR of Zak, Nehra and Ishant is NOT 47. Thank you that makes my point on your lack of understanding and the laughable arguments that you make. Case closed :--D

Yes, case very much closed, in your mind that is.. Zak missed more 2/3 of all ODIs at home due to injury and Ishant was actually dropped due to consistent bad performances and those are your best hedges? You first handpick seamers who were essentially the best of a bad bunch to fortify your case for a ‘strike seaming’ attack.. (Never mind that your own stats backfired on you..). If that wasn’t worse, you have now ignored Praveen Kumar from the conversation (even though he was on your original list..) because you realized his SR sucked. If that wasn’t worse, your only point of reference are guys like Ishant (someone who bowled SOOOOOO poorly during the ODIs at home he was actually dropped.. ) and Zak (and guy who missed most of the ODIs due to injury..:haha: And if that wasn’t hilarious, your only point of discussion is Strike rates (and even that is pretty pitiful, if you consider only Zak, Ishant an Nehra..), as though this is a test match.. What about their combined economy of nearly 6.4?

For the rest of your blah blah stuff, it's pointless as you haven't been able to show how the spinners would do when faced with bowling in the same situation as the seamers :winky:

Wow, what a delusional point.. Am I a miracle worker who can show magical images on a crystal ball? :hysterical:

That^ totally ignores the fact that seamers bowl during PP and at the death' date=' whicle spinners usually bowl during the middle overs. What you did was take the economy rate and projected that over 50 overs. That would be like taking the RR during PP and then projecting that over 50 overs. So if a team is 120 after 15, you would say that they would get 400 after 50. And you think you are making some kind of a point by stating this. That's pathetic! :haha: [/quote'] Why what happened? Has the truth that the STRIKE SEAMING attack that you were so proud of has been performing SOOOO poorly in home ODIs that everyone from captain to coach to ex players are worried about it, hit you so hard? Mate, stop making such a fool of yourself

[zen]

Yes, case very much closed, in your mind that is.. Zak missed more 2/3 of all ODIs at home due to injury and Ishant was actually dropped due to consistent bad performances and those are your best hedges? You first handpick seamers who were essentially the best of a bad bunch to fortify your case for a ‘strike seaming’ attack.. (Never mind that your own stats backfired on you..). If that wasn’t worse, you have now ignored Praveen Kumar from the conversation (even though he was on your original list..) because you realized his SR sucked. If that wasn’t worse, your only point of reference are guys like Ishant (someone who bowled SOOOOOO poorly during the ODIs at home he was actually dropped.. ) and Zak (and guy who missed most of the ODIs due to injury..:haha:

oh boy, so you want folks to assume that guys like Zak wouldn't play/miss the WC? That opening line of yours is as dumb as it gets. (Feels like I am discussing this with some school kid, which i guess, what you are) Yes, I have picked four seamers in my WC squad as I can't pick everyone: Zak, Nehra, PK and Ishant. In my 11, I have 3 of them playing. I don't need to know the SR of each and every pace bowler that played for India as that's irrelavant (something you still haven't been able to comprehend and based your arguments on that). What's important is the SR of these 4. And since I can pick 3 of those 4, I picked Zak, Nehra and Ishant :winky: This was simple and obvious but as expected you failed to see it!

And if that wasn’t hilarious, your only point of discussion is Strike rates (and even that is pretty pitiful, if you consider only Zak, Ishant an Nehra..), as though this is a test match.. What about their combined economy of nearly 6.4?

Another example of your poor comprehension skills. How many times have I explained the seamers bowl during RR and at death, while spinners bowl during middle overs. Unless you can show us that spinners would do a better job, this point is moot But hey, you still had to ask that (not surprising though) :haha:

Wow, what a delusional point.. Am I a miracle worker who can show magical images on a crystal ball? :hysterical: Why what happened? Has the truth that the STRIKE SEAMING attack that you were so proud of has been performing SOOOO poorly in home ODIs that everyone from captain to coach to ex players are worried about it, hit you so hard? Mate, stop making such a fool of yourself

According to your truth, if a team is 120 after 15, it's score is 400 (drawing parallels). Yes, we are suppose to look in to 'such' truth. Go play with other kids, kid. May be they would entertain your thoughts :--D