Five ways to show that Sachin is not that Great

[Ultimate_Game]

I dont agree with you. Since most of your examples consist of ODIs,Can you tell me, in ODIs, right from the time the game started, how many times has an opener remain unbeaten and guided his team to victory? An opener, not a no 3 or or a no4. Only a handful of times. If an opener stays till 50 overs he is bound to score more than 150 each time and thats not even possible. Dhoni and Raina are finsihers and its enough for them to score 50+ to be unbeaten at the end but Sachin will have to score 120+ to do the same. How is that a fair comparison? Also since, Sachin rarely gets to play in the last 10 overs, most of his experience lies in opening. How then can you expect an inexpected finisher to finish perfectly? he must be the only opener in the wolrd who is expected to finish matches for his team! As for test matches, BossBhai, can you do a stat on out of all the batsmen mentioned by UG, how many have guided the team to victory in 4th innings in how many games being not out and compare the number with Sachin's if you have the time? UG, its the perception and expectations built around Sachin which causes the illusion. Its a common fallacy of the human mind to remember things wrongly. Sachin has reached such a status that its his failure in crunch situations which stand out in our mind as its an aberration from his consistancy. We wont even remember his success in crunch situation, partly because we expected it, and partly because when he is batting we dont think its a crunch situation For others, who are inconsistant, its their once in a blue moon success in crunch situation which stands out. For example, UV is remembered for his natwest innings. So in our mind, he becomes a great presssure player! His thousand failures wont be remembered. With Sachin, its his failures that are so uncommon that we try to attach special significance to the match situation where he failed (even if there was none, he might have been in the same situation a 100 times and succeeded before) and conclude it must be a crunch situation which he failed!

Agree with you to a certain extent and I don't expect Sachin to win every game or even finish most of the games as he's an opener and not a middle order batsman. But on occasions when he was the last batsman standing he was not able to finish things off. Some prominent examples are Chennai 99, Adelaide 2003 (where Dravid saw the team through), SL 2010 (Laxman guided the team but Tendulkar got out before the job was done). The lone instance where Sachin guided the team was in 2009 against Eng when he remained unbeaten while helping India chase 380 odd against Eng. Obviously, Tendulkar as an opener will not get too many chances to finish off the games, but in instances where he was afforded the chance, he fell short IMO. As an example, whom would you have in the middle with India 210/5 in 38th over while chasing 280? Or 200/5 in 4th innings while chasing 300 for a victory?

[CSK Fan]

too vague ... got to be a little bit more clearer but everybody knows that baasu does not have a killer 4th inngs stats as a whole. But there have been inngs like 103 against eng, the 119 at OT circa 1990, the 50 odd vs SL in the recent test series and the 50 odd against Pakistan in 2007. .

Just the times India won and he remained not out (doesnt matter how much he scored) and compare it with others?

[CSK Fan]

Agree with you to a certain extent and I don't expect Sachin to win every game or even finish most of the games as he's an opener and not a middle order batsman. But on occasions when he was the last batsman standing he was not able to finish things off. Some prominent examples are Chennai 99, Adelaide 2003 (where Dravid saw the team through), SL 2010 (Laxman guided the team but Tendulkar got out before the job was done). The lone instance where Sachin guided the team was in 2009 against Eng when he remained unbeaten while helping India chase 380 odd against Eng. Obviously, Tendulkar as an opener will not get too many chances to finish off the games, but in instances where he was afforded the chance, he fell short IMO. As an example, whom would you have in the middle with India 210/5 in 38th over while chasing 280? Or 200/5 in 4th innings while chasing 300 for a victory?

the SL 2010 was the ONLY time Laxman got a 100 in the 4th innings. Yet you chose him over Sachin in your list. Chennai 99 shouldnt be used as an example as he had a very bad back and he was abttling enormous pain. Yet he got us very very close to victory and cannot be blamed for trying to finish things a bit faster. The pain was literally unberable

[The Outsider]

Just the times India won and he remained not out (doesnt matter how much he scored) and compare it with others?

http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35320.html?class=1;filter=advanced;innings_number=4;orderby=start;outs=0;result=1;template=results;type=batting;view=innings

[The Outsider]

Can you tell me' date=' in ODIs, right from the time the game started, how many times has an opener remain unbeaten and guided his team to victory? An opener, not a no 3 or or a no4. [/quote'] http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?batting_fielding_first=2;batting_positionmax1=2;batting_positionmin1=1;batting_positionval1=batting_position;class=2;filter=advanced;orderby=runs;outs=0;result=1;runsmin1=80;runsval1=runs;template=results;type=batting

[Raghav_12]

True that. Sachin captaincy record ' date=' [b']4th innings record & failure to perform in world cup semis & finals is a proof of that.

Sachin bashers at it again, very much justifying the purpose of this very thread :winky: Sachin's fourth innings record is not bad as it is claimed by Sachin bashers. 1. Sachin's average in fourh innings is 37.5 which is better than other supposedly great finishers like Lara (35) and S Waugh (25). 2. Fourth innings averages should always be taken with a pinch of salt because sample size of these innings is very small so it can be skewed with the effect of one or two innings. For Sachin's example - He has played just 47 times in fourth innings with 13 not outs. One innings of not- out century in fourth innings will launch his fourth innings average deep in 40's which would be very respectable. Similar is case has with Pontings average -52 (though runs scored by Ponting in fourth innings are not even 200 more than what Sachin has scored). Not to say tha Sachin's fourth innings records are as outstanding as his overall record. But then it is not bad either. Period.

[Ultimate_Game]

the SL 2010 was the ONLY time Laxman got a 100 in the 4th innings. Yet you chose him over Sachin in your list. Chennai 99 shouldnt be used as an example as he had a very bad back and he was abttling enormous pain. Yet he got us very very close to victory and cannot be blamed for trying to finish things a bit faster. The pain was literally unberable

Well you didn't answer my hypothetical question, i.e. whom would you rather have in the middle in the mentioned situations.

[gaurav92]

Superbly written MTC.Sheer class.I wish i had even 1/4th of the talent that you possess. :)

[littlemaster1982]

E.g.' date=' chennai 99 against Pak, or even World cup 2003 game against Pak - [b']Sachin scored 98 but he got out with around 100 to get and it was Yuvraj and Dravid who had to clean up. As most of the experts say, never leave the job to the next batsman and Sachin fails in that respect.

That match shouldn't be in the list at all, UG. He did his job well enough before he got out. Do you mean to say we can't even trust middle & lower order batsmen for 100 runs in 22 overs?

[Guest BossBhai]

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[Tapioca]

2003 semi final was against Kenya so it doesnt count. In 96 semi final, Sachin failed to finish the game for India unlike Inzi in 92 & Ponting in 2003 final.

What game did Inzamam finish off ? He choked 37 runs short of target. It was Moin Khan who finally won it.

[Tapioca]

As an example, whom would you have in the middle with India 210/5 in 38th over while chasing 280? Or 200/5 in 4th innings while chasing 300 for a victory?

Tests - certainly Tendulkar. ODI - I'll probably have a fresh middle order batsman than an opener who has already batted for 38 overs.

[EnterTheVoid]

Inzi the great finisher; 96 WC Semi Final againt India - CHOKE 99 WC Final - CHOKE '03 WC vs Aus, India and England - CHOKE '07 WC - Ends his career as a murder suspect. Mashallah, great finisher fat @r.se is.

[gult]

I think those are the 5 ways to show that he's no god. But he is still miles ahead of anybody else in greatness.

[Guest BossBhai]

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[SachDan]

Inzi the great finisher; 96 WC Semi Final againt India - CHOKE 99 WC Final - CHOKE '03 WC vs Aus, India and England - CHOKE '07 WC - Ends his career as a murder suspect. Mashallah, great finisher fat @r.se is.

Quarter final.

[Ultimate_Game]

This match against Aussies is the perfect illustration of the point I made... Sachin was the highest scorer for India in the match (98 & 38) and India definitely wouldn't have won without his contribution but as soon as the pressure of chasing appeared Tendulkar got out, and it was Laxman who had to win it for India. Tendulkar would be one of the first players in my World XI (actually 2nd, after Bradman) but at the same time I will never pick Tendulkar in case he had to bat to save my life. I have seen the trend for a long time and have reconciled to the fact that Tendulkar has a weakness under pressure and point no. 5 does have some merit. In fact when I saw Tendulkar get out I was disappointed but a little bit relieved that it wasn't Laxman as Tendulkar batting with the tail would most probably have left India with a close 10 run loss. Tendulkar is a great scorer of runs and extremely consistent but I wouldn't put money on him at the crunch.

[Roshanrocks]

This match against Aussies is the perfect illustration of the point I made... Sachin was the highest scorer for India in the match (98 & 38) and India definitely wouldn't have won without his contribution but as soon as the pressure of chasing appeared Tendulkar got out, and it was Laxman who had to win it for India. Tendulkar would be one of the first players in my World XI (actually 2nd, after Bradman) but at the same time I will never pick Tendulkar in case he had to bat to save my life. I have seen the trend for a long time and have reconciled to the fact that Tendulkar has a weakness under pressure and point no. 5 does have some merit. In fact when I saw Tendulkar get out I was disappointed but a little bit relieved that it wasn't Laxman as Tendulkar batting with the tail would most probably have left India with a close 10 run loss. Tendulkar is a great scorer of runs and extremely consistent but I wouldn't put money on him at the crunch.

ok do u want sachin to hold each and every record on planet earth under the batting category? :hmmm:

[Ultimate_Game]

ok do u want sachin to hold each and every record on planet earth under the batting category? :hmmm:

Again you misunderstand me. I am absolutely fine with Sachin the way he is and I have mentioned he will always be in my All Time World XI but I am simply responding the OP who says that Sachin not performing under pressure is a myth - pls do read OP's post. I disagree and put forth my argument. I suggest again that you read OP's post along with my posts.

[CSK Fan]

Again you misunderstand me. I am absolutely fine with Sachin the way he is and I have mentioned he will always be in my All Time World XI but I am simply responding the OP who says that Sachin not performing under pressure is a myth - pls do read OP's post. I disagree and put forth my argument. I suggest again that you read OP's post along with my posts.

If you pick and chose one or two failures I can show you examples when Laxman failed under similar situations. I can wait for the next time Laxman fails and make a thread. Will that prove Laxman is not a pressure player? What is important is that Laxman, Sachin, Dravid, Sehwag etc are all playing for India and together we are no 1. We have some with amazing strike rates, some who set up the socre and some awesome finishers. We are blessed